number 6451 on the window sill

facts surrounding the Keddie Murders, for beginners and up

Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby not sure » Tue May 15, 2012 10:31 am

Photo of SP 6451 circa 1974
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Great find, Cheshire!
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:16 pm

I'm totally intrigued that Not Sure's and Cheshire's work on the locomotive theory is the answer to 6451. The only trouble I have is a lack of photos of that particular locomotive since 1974- otherwise I buy it. So, hopefully there are some railfans still involved in the case that can put their hobby, expertise, and interest in this case together by solving the mystery of Engine 6451.


Owner: Southern Pacific
Model: EMD FP7A
Built As: SP 6451 (FP7A)
Serial Number: 18135
Order No: 3160
Frame Number: 3160-A6
Built: 2/1953

Southern Pacific bought 16 of the 381 total FP7As produced, giving them rad numbers 6446–6461. So, since Western Pacific (sold to Union Pacific after the murders, in 1983) was in direct competition with SP, what would an SP engine be doing in Keddie? Wouldn't 6451 have been sold to WP for it to have ever come thru the Keddie WP line? I mean, it's all politics and corporate competition, but usually when a locomotive is sold to another line, it's renamed.

Can a railfan please shed some light, because I'm now leaning to the idea 6451 on the windowsill CANNOT mean the SP engine, because that particular locomotive wouldn't pass through Keddie wearing SP paintjob, logo, or number. I know there ended up being an agreement between WP and SP for shared tracks/directional running, but I don't know if it was before or after 4/81, much less if 6451 was still in operation when the agreement was made. Also, the wiki article on EMD FP7s states they weren't used much in mountainous routes. Another source says that agreement was only for a stretch of tracks between Wells and Winnemucca, NV, which again means 6451 would never pass thru Keddie.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby Magnum PI » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:38 pm

Dmac, If my information is correct SP #6451 traveled to Reno in the 70's. Not sure about the 80's but I am still researching.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:37 am

Mags: the point is WP and SP can all get to Reno, but Southern Pacific #6451 isn't going to do it through Keddie, because that entire route was owned by Western Pacific and only WP (and partnered) trains ran on it.

I don't know if I explained it well before, nor will this extra info help, but it may make sense to some:

In 1981, Keddie was Western Pacific and only WP ran on WP rails. Keddie and Keddie Wye was 100% Western Pacific, and Southern Pacific trains never ran on WP lines, so Southern Pacific locomotive #6451 never went thru Keddie.

Here's the logic: Western Pacific owned and ran it's own way through California on their rail system. Southern Pacific had a route over the mountains 2000 feet higher. WP (now UP) and SP were and are competitive railways. Arthur Keddie was brilliant and found a much better route over the Sierras into Nevada= the route he pioneered and eventually owned by WP/UP is about 5500 feet up and a slow grade, while Southern Pacific's route is about 7500 feet elevation and much steeper grades.

Competition.

If you own Nike, why let Converse onto your tracks? Converse has their own tracks, which is why Nike is Nike and Converse is Converse.

Why would someone write 6451 down on that windowsill if we know it had nothing to do with a Southern Pacific locomotive?
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby not sure » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:14 pm

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos. ... =SP%206451 This site shows a 6451 that traveled between Norden, CA (Truckee/Tahoe area) and San Francisco back in the 70s. I haven't found any showing it in usage past 1974 but I also haven't found anything saying it was sent for scrap. There's a reference on this site about another, similar locomotive, being used as the Reno Fun Train that is referred to as an "ex-SP now Amtrak" so it's possible the same happened with 6451...Amtrak bought it off of SP to be used as a passenger train between SF and Reno.

And here's another reference to that locomotive being Westbound http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/r ... 11,1509076

Here's a reference to a current Amtrak 6451. Totally newer version and different location but shows Amtrak still using the number. http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakpix/locos ... 6451A.html

Plus, the number 6451 doesn't seem to be exclusive to SP. Here's another 6451 that originated from, I believe, B&O http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/Locopi ... x?id=56288 and there are references and this one belonging to IC&E in Illinois http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxlgIYc1qIE

My point is I still think its a viable possibility that number refers to a locomotive.

The other thing I thought of the number was perhaps it is part of a car license someone thought they scratched into a water heater? Wondering if the water heater was visible through the window and the guy was so out of it he thought it was the tank he was scratching instead of the sill. Just a thought.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:28 pm

It's viable, but the argument is toast. Several rail lines used 6451, but the only rail line using that # and was close to accessing WP's line and Keddie was Southern Pacific.

Owner: Southern Pacific
Model: EMD FP7A
Built As: SP 6451 (FP7A)
Serial Number: 18135
Order No: 3160
Frame Number: 3160-A6
Built: 2/1953

Western Pacific only bought two FP7s. If you do a search of Keddie Wye images, you will see a ton of photos of these two workhorses: Their road numbers were 804 and 805. When the Zephyr was closed in 70, they were re-geared for freight and renumbered 915 & 916. 804 was wrecked in 5/72, and traded in to GE. 805 was also traded in to GE, then sold to Wellsville Addison & Galeton, then to Louisiana & North West 49, then to Feather River Rail Society, in 1987. It's at the WP museum in Portola.

The vast majority of FP7s were toast by the early 80s, and 83 seems to be a landmark year for retiring the remaining fleet. But, by then, UP had absorbed WP, and SP had sold their 6451 to Amtrak years prior. In fact, they sold 14 FP7s to Amtrak, which remained with UP road numbers and paint until around 1975, when they were all converted to Amtrak paint and road #s (AMTK 110-123). 6451, by 1975, was repainted and renumbered AMTK 115-1. Here are some pictures of these engines during the transition from UP to Amtrak paint- unfortunately, the only photo of 6451 is prior to the new paint and number.

Since there are no other known railways using the number 6451 that could accidentally run on Western Pacific lines (and several railways had access for runs or detouring- Great Northern, Union Pac, BG), and 6451 was retired by 75, it kind of kills the possibility that 6451 is a locomotive. Here's a list of Western Pacific's stock and numbers. A list of Union Pacific stock and numbers- including the sale to Amtrak of 6451. And a list of the WP stock and what happened to it once UP took over in 83. Here's a great little article detailing the rise of Western Pacific, Arthur Keddie's dream route, and some more stock info.

Here's a map of Western Pacific's rail system, and one detailing how it interacted with other lines- including the Inside Gateway ("Highline") that connected Keddie to the great Northern line in Bieber (which goes straight through to Klamath and points north and east)

Image Image

Perhaps railfans can help with this, but I unfortunately think the locomotive idea has nearly bottomed out. When I began last night's post, I thought 'train' was the answer- then I made the mistake of researching it further. (There is BN 6451 which ran with Burlington Northern sometime during the 70s and possibly until 84-there are photos of it in 82. Burlington Northern did occasionally come through Keddie, so more research on BN 6451 is warranted. There is also Conrail's CR 6451 that was running back then, but Conrail is mainly NY/NJ and only goes as far west as Illinois.)

Back to the original info on 6451, and whether Phillip mistook the window sill for the water heater. The first hurdle is believing Phillip, which I don't. He stayed the night at cabin 28 in January 81, according to LE reports, so he would have slept downstairs in Johnny's room. Even if that was the only visit to 28 in his life, it gave him an inside and out perspective of the cabin, including the entire basement and where the heater was. Plus the idea of him hiding down there makes no sense because if the killers were looking for anything, they're going to head to Johnny's room. Downstairs. Where he was supposedly hiding. From the killers. Who he caught a ride into Keddie with. And a ride back to Gansner Field with. Right.

As for the origin of 6451, the only reference I'm aware of that we have access to is the "Persons of Note" file in which, listed by James Seabolt Sr, is the following notation:

    "found #6451 on window sill where John used to sleep"
How recent was it? Pen? Pencil? Scratched in? There are three windows in John's room, all of which were squeezed together in one panel and faced southwest towards the garages at the back of cabin 13-14. You're not going to see any license plates from that POV. The only other outside wall from Johnny's room faced the back yard, but had no windows and was further obscured by the rear stairs. I really liked the rail idea, but I'm back to phone #, partial license plate, or something else entirely.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby Cheshire » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:06 pm

"found #6451 on window sill where John used to sleep"

So we've been assuming that means that the number was written there, but maybe the number refers to a piece of evidence that had been assigned that number. It doesn't fit the numbering scheme used in PCSO/Stoy's evidence reports that are posted here viewtopic.php?f=15&t=856 (which are incomplete), but maybe the fit the numbering scheme used on a different evidence list
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby TREELAND » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:43 pm

Maybe an address with the six or the one being a apartment number and the rest of the numbers being the street address, for example unit 6 at 451 or unit one at 645. Or even a four digit mailing address.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:48 am

Actually, a long time ago I searched for 6451 Hwy 70, Quincy Ca. Of course, google maps is a generally couple blocks off when it comes to Quincy, but that address is a stones throw from corrupt Rodgobbler DeCrona's house. Of course, the murders happened years before Rod could have stolen enough Jeeps and property and cash, and robbed the Plumas coffers via bullshit health claims, to have amassed the wealth necessary to 'own' that kind of land, houses, and numerous RV toys. No, in '81, he was just another dickweed pig, just starting to suck the government teat.

Image

Exactly how does a third-in-command PCSO douchebag, responsible for countless legitimate lawsuits against the county, the PCSO, and the school district, from outraged citizens molested by him and his heavy-handed, unconstitutional PCSO Pig tactics, legally gather that kind of wealth on a PCSO salary? Oh, simple answer: he DIDN'T!
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby TREELAND » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:04 pm

DeCrona sounds like a real crook no better then an felon. The location of his home is coincidence but I thought this was too, if you google 451 HWY 70 Quincy, Ca, it comes up as an address in Quincy proper. This a long shot but could the numbers 6451 actually stand for unit six at 451 or even this, six o'clock meeting at 451 in Quincy?
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:27 pm

Back to 6451. While researching something else entirely today, I found that Burlington Northern once owned a hog numbered BN 6451. Built in July 68 (SN 33788), it was first Great Northern GN 421. By 72, it was BN 6451. Sold to CNW in 84 and retired in 87, it was most active during it's run with Burlington.

1972_BN6451_Denver.jpg
1982_Jan_BN6451_Fridley_MN.jpg


When Amtrak revived the California Zephyr in the early 70s, BN was part of the system. Those passenger trains did not go through Keddie in Amtrak's version, but Burlington Northern hogs were often going through Keddie as part of the freight services. Therefore, the idea originally put forward by Not Sure (and researched by Cheshire) again has great legs. 6451 was a Burlington Northern engine at the time, and BN went through Keddie.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Sat May 03, 2014 1:57 pm

Several shots of Burlington Northern rigs on the Keddie Wye, and in the Keddie yard:
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby Cheshire » Sun May 04, 2014 8:47 am

From: http://www.hobo.com/hobograpevine.html

"Oops's Birthday
Jaunt"
(8/12/2013)

hey fran,
its been a bit, i hope your doing well, i am. me
and chessieka just got back from my bday trip. so in the last month & 1/2 i
been running all around the west coast. i rode bn to bend, then back to kfalls,
a lot, was in eugene and Portland also down in roseville and farther south, but
the best was last week, me and my great friend heather rode outta dunsmuir to
kfalls, switched to bnsf, rode that down to keddie, got off and camped out for a
few days for my 36 bday. it was awesome. i never rode that route before so that
made it great. we made a camp under the wye, had a fire, went swimming, ate
crawfish (that she caught), listened to old train songs and just fu#[email protected]%ing loved
it. the 3 of my friends drove out to meet us and made it better... best bday in
a long time. anyways, just wanna say hi and let ya'll know that im still
kicking at 36. hope all is well and i'll talk to you soon...

oops... and chessieka
it may seem young but 24 yrs on these roads/rails its
been hell on me. gonna make it another 3 at least.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby Cheshire » Sun May 04, 2014 9:57 am

Anyone reading this thread might also want to check here for more re trains: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=820&hilit=train
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby Cheshire » Sat May 17, 2014 3:58 pm

Back to the paint

http://store.sirchie.com/SIRCHMARK-Evid ... 7C675.aspx

SIRCHMARK™ Evidence Marking Paint Kit provides law enforcement with an easy to use, highly visible marking tool set for investigators to identify key evidence or areas of interest at a crime scene or traffic accident. Use the included SIRCHMARK™ Evidence Marking Paint Dispenser to make quick and accurate markings. You can use the different colors to mark different types of evidence or locations. The paint is not permanent and will wear off naturally within 60 days of application.

http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/201 ... -personnel "Essential Items for Crime Scene Personnel":
Bindle paper.
Biohazard bags.
Bodily fluid collection kit (sterile swabs, distilled water, — optional presumptive tests [opens in pop-up window], and sterile packaging that allows the swabs to air dry).
Camera (plus memory cards, back up battery, remote flash, tripod and remote cord).
Evidence seals/tape.
Flashlight(s) with extra batteries.
Footwear casting materials.
Graph paper and pencils, small ruler or straight edge.
Latent print [opens in pop-up window] kit.
Measuring devices (e.g, measuring wheel, tape measures of varying lengths).
Multifunction utility tool.
Notebook.
Paper bags (various sizes).
Permanent markers.
Personal protective equipment (e.g., gloves, booties, hair covering, overalls and mask).
Placards.
Plastic resealable bags (various sizes)
Scales for photography.
Spray paint, chalk, etc.
Syringe/knife tubes.
Tweezers(disposable
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby Magesta » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:29 am

I am a new member of this forum, however, I have been following this case for years.
On the number 6451 found on Johnny's window sill, this is probably a reach....but I'll throw it out there anyway.
6451 = FDEA
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:25 pm

Welcome aboard, Magesta. The telephone translation of 6451 into FDEA (Federal Drug Enforcement Administration) has been made before somewhere on the board (I can't presently find an example). It may be that someone emailed or PMd that idea to me, but I believe I first saw it in a post on the forum. This isn't the first thread where 6451 is discussed. It was meant to be the place to deposit ideas such as yours but, unfortunately, about 2 pages worth of posts are a pointless argument on the paint on the exterior doors and window of the basement utility room adjacent to Johnny's bedroom.

Many things bother me about the common possible conclusions: If it's an engine # scrawled by a railfan, why the window sill, and why were there no other engine numbers with it? And there has never been mention of Johnny being a railfan, although he'd only occupied the room for several months. If it is code for FDEA, why would anyone translate it to phone digits, much less jot it on the window sill? More than anything, where is the police report about 6451? Did anyone determine how old it was? Was it dust-covered and ancient?Was the writing matched to Johnny's hand? As usual, we have a tiny morsel and are left to wonder about its implications the bigger picture.

One last note- when considering the FDEA translation theory, you should also read this.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby Ava » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:40 pm

In considering the age Johnny was, this could simply be a combination number for some kind of lock.
School, bike, etc..
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby Magesta » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:01 am

I thought of that also. I always thought they had 3 numbers and so I dismissed this theory. However according to Wikipedia, they indicate these locks may have more than one digit.

The following was taken from Wikipedia
Typical padlocks are manufactured with generous tolerances, allowing two, three or even more digits of 'play' in the correct access sequence. Given a 60-number dial with three cams and three digits of play, the search space is reduced from 60 × 60 × 60 to 20 × 20 × 20, a 96% reduction in potential combinations.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:57 am

maybe "#6451" is a ref to an evidence receipt number, not a figure scrawled on the sill.
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