The bent knife

facts surrounding the Keddie Murders, for beginners and up

The bent knife

Postby meankitty » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:28 pm

One thing has always bothered me. I've heard of the bent knife being described as bent at a 90 degree angle or bent to almost double. I have seen a picture of the knife, and it looked to me as being bent at an approx. 20 degree angle.
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Postby jhancock » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:14 am

There may have been more than one bent knife; also, we don't know where that photo was taken. It looks like the knife could be on the floor of the cabin; it also could have already been in evidence. Considering how evidence was handled, I would not be surprised if someone bent it back, the end result being the shape you see in the photo.
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Postby Night Rider » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:50 pm

I would estimate the angle of the bend at about 35 degrees.

My years of taking photographs tell me that that photo was definately taken on the carpet of the cabin.

Something I had missed before, look at the bottom of the photo, is that a quiet bloodstain?? I does appear that the nap of the carpet is slightly tighter than that above the knife.
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Postby Night Rider » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:44 pm

Years ago I believe Sheila sad that the found one right when she walked in that morning, and that the even picked it up.

Stupid question: why didn't they just take them and throw them away???
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Postby tinkerbell » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:42 pm

I never went into the house, just stopped at the door and therefore didn't not pick up or touch anything in the house.
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Postby Night Rider » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:40 pm

Sassy, I doubt very many people ever really believed that.

I think I was just trying to give some of the new posters an example of some of the BS that has been shoveled on us over the years.
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Re: The bent knife

Postby dmac » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:55 am

The bent knife was not bent backwards- pure BS by DeCrona and others. It was discarded near Johnny's body. It's on the blood map I've assimilated since.

About the knife: it is a thin, flimsy knife, used as dining ware. Plastic handle, no substantial tang. I would look at that knife and say, "wow, the killer used a cheap knife to try to stab Johnny in the chest?" Bullshit. The knife certainly wasn't strong enough to get through any chest cavity, yet it is abandoned near Johnny? Think about that for a while.

The bent knife is a lie by the killers, accentuated by LE's fake involvement. Red herring. Timestamp this, because it's another instance where I believe bullshit is obvious. The bent knife is bullshit.

Name how that cheap knife was used? Not as a murder tool.
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Re: The bent knife

Postby Chichibcc » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:55 am

I'd always found it odd how that knife was left on the floor, yet the other weapons were placed neatly on the table.....now I think I might understand why that was.
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Re: The bent knife

Postby dmac » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:58 am

no, it's not that easy, chi. There is deliberate obfuscation on many levels by the perps. They brought the tape yet did not leave or display the tape they brought-- the cores. They used up at least one roll of tape, so where is the metal core? Duh. The tape proves premed, which is why they took away the tools they came with. This case is poorly calculated shitty premed.

They used the table leg, and haphazardly tossed it back behind the the card table it was torn from. They brought more than tape to the crime, they left bloody evidence in the trash behind the store. Numnut Marty left his bloody fingerprint on a drinking glass after Tina had cleaned the dishes earlier that night.

No, the knife wasn't a red herring about showing what was done or how they did it. It was purely a bullshit red herring. Johnny's placement was a red herring. As was Sue's and Dana's and, likely, Tina's. All BULLSHIT. The crime was one thing, and the staging another. why the white cord to join Johnny and Dana together? They were already dead, the black cord was right there on the floor, yet a clean white extension cord was chosen instead. THAT SAYS A LOT to me. How bout you, Aus?
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Re: The bent knife

Postby krazykat » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:21 pm

Personally I believe if you can figure out who the message is being sent to you can figure the message itself out the killer is trying to convey by body placement and or items out of place.
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Re: The bent knife

Postby Ausgirl » Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:22 pm

Exactly, KK - this is why I've been saying lately, we need a forensic pathologist to help us ascertain what -precisely and in plain terms happened- to cause the injuries (educated guesses, imo, trump uneducated ones, very often) and try to establish something of a CS-timeline. Knowing what order things happened in -might- yield a few clues as to the why. And therefore, maybe we could get a clue as to why the scene was left as it was. Maybe. :|
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Re: The bent knife

Postby Ausgirl » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:25 pm

The crime was one thing, and the staging another. why the white cord to join Johnny and Dana together? They were already dead, the black cord was right fucking there on the floor, yet a clean white extension cord was chosen instead. THAT SAYS A LOT to me. How bout you, Aus?


Dmac - hope you don't think I ignored this question. Just been mulling it over. Here's a few speculative reasons I can think of as to "why the extraneous white cord":

1. It was a giant fuck you to the cops.
2. It had some symbolic significance to the killer.
3. The killer was trying, for some reason, to make it look like the boys died in situ, and assumed that the cops were so dumb they wouldn't figure out the cord was a late addition.
4. Some other killer in the news at the time was using white cord to bind and it was an effort to make it look like that person did the crime.

That's about it, for the moment. I'm sure there's more. I'll post em as they pop up.

As to to the back-on-topic bent knife? This is is kind of insensitive but bear with me. I just used a brand new thin-bladed, plastic-handled steak knife to cut the dog's meat last night. I will never use one again, because all I could think the whole time was "this is so efficient, I can see how it could have caused fatal injuries". Yes, that's the tangents my mind travels. No more steak knives. I have no doubt that it could have been used to make some of those narrow stab marks. Bent when it hit a rib or something.

But why was it tossed on the floor? Because Mister neat and tidy, Mister make a display, Mister white cord - Mister hammer and kitchen knife left tidily on the table - was NOT the person who used it?
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Re: The bent knife

Postby dmac » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:50 pm

I think the white cord was a "screw you" greeting to the pigs. but look at my original argument- they pulled the damned cassette player/radio from the table by Sue's side of the couch. It was upright on the floor, not tumbled or knocked over. The radio was placed, and appears to be still plugged into the wall-

What the f does that mean? Was it placement, again, or was it them saying, "screw it, this radio cord is too short, lets go with that white one!"

Where the F did the white extension cord come from??? They pulled the TV from it's corner in all the struggle, including when they pulled the leg off the folding table- more on that later, I have proof- but they (he) CHOSE one white cord to tie a dead Johnny to a deader Dana. There was a white extension cord attached to the TV, coming from the same outlet as the radio, so where did that white cord come from, and what was plugged into it before they used it? Was it another kitchen find, like the knife and hammer? No! this is staging, not escalation. The fact the white cord is NOT from the outlet nearest the bodies -- right beside Dana's feet!--- is in itself, a statement. It says something about the perp (singular, because the staging was directed by one of the two- Bo) and about the escalation.

The placement is not two muddled brains, it's one, deliberate. The white cord is deliberate. The loose knots on the legs of dead bodies? Deliberate. The knots were tight, but the loops around the legs were not meant to bind but to showcase control.

The loops on Sue's legs, wrists, and multiple gags- plus the overkill abuse her face and mouth took- were also statements of control
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Re: The bent knife

Postby Ausgirl » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:31 pm

D. Did that cassette player have a "record" function?
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Re: The bent knife

Postby krazykat » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:26 am

So you're saying he brought the white cord with him along with the rolls of medical tape?
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Re: The bent knife

Postby not sure » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:46 am

dmac wrote:Name how that cheap knife was used? Not as a murder tool.


I was thinking, based on the recent discussions about the victims being taped then left for a period of time...what if the bent knife was used by someone to try to cut the tape or bindings? If it was flimsy it would bend easily if it was being used to cut through something thick or strong. I've ruined many a flimsy knife myself over the years, trying to cut something the knife was too weak or dull to cut.

My line of thought is this...Justin's timeline statement of Tina coming out of the bedroom and being taken out of the house by both perps. That, to me, is a perfect time for someone to attempt to escape or release someone from the bindings. My first thought was Justin. Thinking Justin cut Sue loose, Sue goes to Johnny (tracking through the blood), the perps come back and freak out that she's loose...well, you get my drift.
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Re: The bent knife

Postby dmac » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:59 pm

I cannot see if the cassette radio had a record button- too far away and blurry. I can't even count the buttons to see if there were enough to allow for a record button.

No, KK, I'm NOT saying the white cord was brought to the scene. I'm saying it wasn't taken from the TV set- which had a similar white extension cord from the wall outlet (under the drapes near Sue's end of the couch) to the TV. That white extension cord was not used, despite it becoming glaringly obvious to the criminals. They'd messed with where the TV was, they'd used the leg from the table behind the TV as a weapon, they'd stretched the black cord from the cassette radio straight underneath Dana's body. Why the F did they use another white cord when all that shit was right there? Did they stretch out the cord from the radio, move Dana over it, and determine the cord was far too short to tie the boys together?

Not to fall into Valley Flyer territory, but almost everything we know is wrong.

As for the bent knife, Aus and I agreed it was found next to Johnny because it was unsuccessfully used to penetrate his ribcage to stab his heart. The knife was too weak and bent instead, and was tossed aside. The hesitation wounds on Johnny and Sue, nearly identical, were threat wounds by the perp(s). No hesitation, just threat and terror and torture.

I've had many thoughts about how that flimsy knife may have been used, but all add up to the square root of zero. Most of the stab wounds match a knife similar to the bent knife. I have yet to see one single wound that can be attributed to the Chef's Knife (it's not a butcher's knife, ok?) found alongside the hammer supposedly used in the crimes. Look at the wounds, the descriptions, and tell me a chef's knife did that? No way, because a chef's knife is too large for the wounds described.

What about the pack of bloody shit found in the trash behind the Gen Store?

NS, I disagree with Justin's timeline and statements. I think a lot of it was coached, even prior to DT screwing with his head- by Bo, Marty Smarttt, and Marylin.

How can Tina wake up, alarmed, well after her mother had been brutally taken from the bed three feet away? Most of Justin's known statements are half-truths, it's proved without doubt his recollections are, at best, bullshit with hints of truth. Justin has, since then, become a wanker looking for profit from these crimes. He was involved. Lies tempered with hints of fact. To take Justin at face value is to undermine your own comprehension of the depths this case delved into immediately after the bodies were discovered.

I get your drift, but I cannot believe this crime scene was ever out of control. Despite all the body movement and overkill and Tina being quieted out the back door, I do not believe the scene was left unattended or to the devices of an even lower brain. No, the young boys were dealt with, Justin was thoroughly screwed, Johnny and Dana were dead, and Sue was definitely dead. Then they hid Tina, came back, and jacked the scene a bit more.

I have absolutely no reason to believe anybody broke through the tape, and the tape was applied first- to the extent of overkill. Mind you, I'm not ignoring what you're saying- and I'll continue listening. But the killings were very egocentric and confined, despite two perps. Loss of control was never a factor after Sue was gagged.
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Re: The bent knife

Postby not sure » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:57 pm

I'm just not convinced the bend in the knife was from it hitting a rib. The wound described in the autopsy report, the wound that mentions the rib, is a 3/8 inch stab down but the report doesn't say, other than it's location in respect to the midline, that it appeared to be abnormally shaped such as, logically, a bent knife should make. Not being a pathologist or a forensic expert, I may be all wet but I'm just not convinced that's what bent the knife.

If the tape was cut (which is what was being pointed out and discussed after Dana's autopsy report was posted) which instrument cut it?

I am in agreement the knife found in the dumpster may very well be connected to these crimes. I'm not discounting it as being the knife that was used to kill Johnny and Sue or even that it was the one to cut the tape. I just don't know about the bent one.

As for the control of the scene after Sue was gagged (the first layer? second? third?) I can't help but shake my head about the Marty factor. From all I've read of Marty he was a fly off the handle, run at the mouth sort of guy. I can't wrap my head around him being "controlled" after the escalation of the crimes. It just doesn't ring true for me. Passionate? yes. Anger? yes. Controlled and methodical...no way. Just doesn't fit his personality. Not trying to cause trouble here. Just not convinced.
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Re: The bent knife

Postby Chichibcc » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:08 am

I am sure that, given his personality, Marde was a very easy individual for Bo to manipulate, in terms of talking him into going to C28 that night...because I have the feeling that he really didn't know the full extent of what Bo had planned until it was far too late. I guess I'm trying to say that Marde was kinda a puppet for Bo to use at his discretion, basically.

But even if he didn't know how out of control things would go, he is still as guilty as Bo in the whole thing because he could have stopped it, but chose not to.
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Re: The bent knife

Postby Chichibcc » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:28 am

not sure wrote:I'm just not convinced the bend in the knife was from it hitting a rib. The wound described in the autopsy report, the wound that mentions the rib, is a 3/8 inch stab down but the report doesn't say, other than it's location in respect to the midline, that it appeared to be abnormally shaped such as, logically, a bent knife should make. Not being a pathologist or a forensic expert, I may be all wet but I'm just not convinced that's what bent the knife.


Does anyone know if the knife itself still had blood on it when it was found? I've looked again at the photo of the knife, but it's so dark that it's really hard to tell. If not, then I think it got bent when the blade possibly made contact with the wall panels, causing the knife marks.

In part II of the documentary, there is a different version of the knife photo, showing the knife in between two spots of blood on the floor-so maybe it was placed there/staged to look like it had been used as a murder weapon, when it was not.
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