Confused and puzzled newbie asks:

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Confused and puzzled newbie asks:

Postby Boudreaux » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:56 pm

OK, newest of the n00bs here. As I said the other day, the more I look at details, the more complicated this case seems to be. Here are a handful of questions that I just don't get, though:

The Seabolts and Sheila: how is it POSSIBLE that they didn’t hear anything? Could they have ignored it? You could lean out Sue's cabin and touch the Seabolts' cabin with a fishing rod. Or did maybe they know some bad mojo was coming down and knew to pretend they heard nothing? Does that have something to do with why Tina was in 28 and Sheila was next door?

Did maybe MANY of the neighbors in that area know why they were hearing hellish noises that night? And if so, how do you keep that many people quiet for so long?

Was Sheila really so quick-witted that she thought of taking the boys out the window, or did she perhaps have a while (like from 2am until dawn) to think about it? Or maybe did she know what was in that outer room, and perhaps why? For that matter, did Sue's two boys in the room with Justin know or suspect what was in the outer room and want to avoid it?

Sue's boys in the bedroom: A five-year-old might not remember, but a 10-year-old darned well should have known something horrible was going on. Why didn’t he say something? Why won’t he say it now?

The knife marks in the wall—was that the work of someone (Marty, I’m looking at YOO-hooooo) trying to frighten the boys after warning them?

Justin was obviously at least a witness; very possibly a participant. I can see how his stepdad could frighten him enough to stay quiet until he was in his late teens. But what KEPT him frightened for so much longer? Was it fear of the Mafia? Of corrupt local cops? Was that the same thing that kept the 10-year-old quiet all these years?

Speaking of cops, how is it possible that the sheriff did such a grossly incompetent job of investigating the crime and of questioning the subjects? Wasn't there any oversight? Or--here's this question again--what were the locals so terrified of that kept them quiet for so long?

I know, I know--reasonable answers or solidly based opinions are all over this website; I've been reading them for a month. These questions keep coming up in the small wet rag I use for a brain, though.
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Re: Confused and puzzled newbie asks:

Postby JEP » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:04 pm

You have a lot of the same questions that we all have. I think we can speculate why or when or who, but it would be nice to have solid answers from one of the boys. The adults that were involved will never talk. My personal opinion is that more than a few people know what happened. I also believe that more than one neighbor heard the murders going down. Whether they knew it was murder going on in 28 or not is relevant. These were simple people, I don't mean stupid, I mean you stay out of other people's business and they stay out of yours. If Sue was in a screaming match the day before the murders, maybe the screams weren't taken seriously. I don't have any answers, just more speculation. But I do agree with Dmac, the Occam's razor way of thinking is certainly pertinent here, which is why Dmac shuts those rabbit holes down quickly. This is one of those cases that just grabs you and doesn't let go. I really hope we're on the brink of getting some answers. If it makes you feel better, I've been reading here for a couple of years now and I still have the same questions you do.
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Re: Confused and puzzled newbie asks:

Postby budrfligh » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:35 pm

It is a large amount of information that normally would not be outside of law enforcements hands. It has been a few years and I'm still reading and re-reading and find more aha moments all the time. Don't feel discouraged just keep plodding through it. We have so many questions yet to be answered. The most difficult in the beginning was sifting through rumors and falsehoods.
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Re: Confused and puzzled newbie asks:

Postby dfc9781 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:50 am

There is DNA evidence that Justin participated in the murders. Its in the recent article http://www.plumasnews.com/keddie-murders-revisited/
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Re: Confused and puzzled newbie asks:

Postby leenie963 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:35 pm

Jep and bud pretty much stated what I would have. Wait until you start dreaming of the case. Just last week I zonked out on the couch and hubby woke me up. I asked him where's the hammer as I shuffled off to bed.
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Then you're an asshole. ~George Carlin
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Re: Confused and puzzled newbie asks:

Postby Boudreaux » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:36 pm

dfc9781 wrote:There is DNA evidence that Justin participated in the murders. Its in the recent article http://www.plumasnews.com/keddie-murders-revisited/


Yes, I saw that, though it's still (at least to me) an open question whether he wanted to, or was forced to, participate. Either way, WHAT could keep him silent for so long? What about Sue's boys in the room with Justin? At least the older one must have known something hellish was going on, right? Seabolts and Sheila? NO river noise could be loud enough to drown that out. What was the low temperature that night--was it cold enough that night that people had their windows closed? April here, they're all open a lot of the time, especially at night.

Even a crooked sheriff (which is obviously a possibility here) couldn't keep them shut up for so long, out of office. The mafia is famous for keeping secrets, but after all this time?

This is just one CONFUSING case, and the more I learn, the less I'm sure of what I know. I'm grateful to all the regulars for giving me so much help. But it still makes my little tiny brain hurt. :-)
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Re: Confused and puzzled newbie asks:

Postby dfc9781 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:26 pm

As far as Justin is concerned, he probably was a forced participant.. which is obviously a terrible thing to happen to a twelve year old but is compounded by his continued silence about this case. I believe he is currently doing it to protect his worthless mother from being charged for her involvement in these killings. He's also stated that he would one day write a book about all of this. I'm hoping that he will be prevented from doing so by the Son of Sam law -- because he would be in fucking prison along with his mother and all the participants.
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Re: Confused and puzzled newbie asks:

Postby budrfligh » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:51 pm

A child who grew up and won't tell the truth. An adult who refuses to tell the truth. However if he could get a best seller..,
The child can be excused but the adult is concealing a quadruple murder. If we are correct he is protecting a killer. No matter how you slice it that is a choice and is wrong. I would feel sympathetic to a kid but not to an adult.
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Re: Confused and puzzled newbie asks:

Postby Boudreaux » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:58 am

budrfligh wrote:A child who grew up and won't tell the truth. An adult who refuses to tell the truth.... I would feel sympathetic to a kid but not to an adult.


Exactly! Dmac says Justin won't ever write that book and I think he must be right about it--if Justin *were* going to try to make some money off the slaughter, he'd have already done it. He may even have been telling his lies so long that he's come to believe them. (The "Jeff McDonald Syndrome.")

So even if Justin has silenced his own internal conscience, what has kept Ricky silent for so long? None of the neighbors heard ANYTHING while that was going on? Who else had preknowledge other than MMB? DL? A certain sheriff we know? Were the Seabolts and/or Sheila warned ahead of time that they must pretend not to have heard anything?

There are many many questions that just won't make sense to me. :-(
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Re: Confused and puzzled newbie asks:

Postby dmac » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:37 am

Much of this has been answered already, even perhaps this reply should be formatted and added to the "Newbies Ask the Experts" thread.

Occam's Razor is, again, in obeyance: The simplest answer is usually the correct answer.

We know this was not about Tina. We know this wasn't about John and/or Dana. We know this is about Sue.

Not just the brutality of the wounds Sue suffered, opposed to the horrid wounds forced upon the others. Dana's and John's and Sue's postmortem wounds are rather blatant- which include the level, degree, and stupidity exhibited in the staging. Dana's head was bashed in long after his death. John suffered several stab wounds to the chest after his corpse was placed beside Dana's. Tina was removed to Camp Eighteen, ffs, to throw off investigators. Even Sue, who clearly died last, was then tied up in such a sexually humiliating way that at least one forced participant later returned to undo some of the posed humiliation by moving and covering her body with the sheet and blanket pulled from the very bed where Sue slept when the killers entered the unlocked house.

Occam's Razor says this was between the main target and the killer(s). So, throw out all the shit about a random hit (whether by locals or transients or anyone but those that wanted Sue dead). Throw out all the theory about ALL weapons originating from 28. Throw out all the lies by Marty and his family, that he'd stolen a carload of dope and the Sharps were killed because he, Loon, and Bo left the stolen car in front of 28.

That's a warm plate of dog shit those who claim the Keddie Case, as we currently refer to and understand, is a conspiracy of our own supposed lies. Their insane grasp of the case is a plate of feces they prefer to nuzzle and consume: No intruders, Tina did it, could walk 200 miles to her own death (unseen by all) and simply expire in the hills from exhaustion. TINA DID IT! Wow, Slyvester has fans. Maggots and fuck-knobs, all.

Why would Sheila or any of the Seabolts lie about hearing anything? I see no proof of vitriol between them, other than Zonita's rightly-placed distrust of Sue as a worthy mother, as a neighbor who should be trusted with her own kids? Also, apparently 27 was a mirror-image layout of 28, except the layout was really cockeyed on the sough side of 27 (the side facing 28). The front of the south side of 27 once housed the US Post Office, there had been many manipulations to the structure, some lived downstairs, the windows opposite the bathroom window of 28 was boarded up, the house was said to be filled with clothing, and the front room of 27 (where Sheila slept) was as far away from the murder scene in 28 as possible. I still have no idea where the others slept that night within 27, but look at all the aerial photos from Noon Sunday: Only a handful of people on the property of 27, staring up at the chopper. Not the 70 alleged to be Seabolts.

Also, the REAR WINDOW from which the scream is presumed to be the source was by Tina's side of the big bed, and what is presumed to be the cardboard from that window was on her bed, spattered in blood. Meaning the cardboard was there on the bed, rather than plugging the window of light, gogglers, and SOUND, when their killers began the assaults.

Others heard. Many odd noises that night, many people noticing their pets reacting incredibly anxious or otherwise strangely. Ask why, at Cielo Drive, the caretaker heard nothing (because he's lying- he ran out the back door and hid on the hillside). Also ask why few neighbors heard anything. Some neighbors heard screams, most didn't, during the murders. Hours later, when Manson brought a team along to slice & dice the dead, they got into a heated argument out of frustration from not being able to hoist Sharon Tate's corpse over the front beam of the doorway overhang in order to draw and quarter her. That's when the scouts camping in the hollow below were awakened by the loud argument.

Keep in mind, it was the 60s, and Benedict Canyon was still a relatively seclusive (not "EXCLUSIVE!!") and, therefore, empty, twisted zedhead-zone between Mulholland Drive and Sunset Blvd. There was still lots of empty land, where buyers were still unwilling to pay millions for cantelevered disasters of quake, fire, and slide. But the Family did this on an August Saturday night, the least likely night for them to get away with the screams of mass slaughter in rich canyon fear and sprawl.

Court files support that Manson stated he went to 28, after the killers returned to Spahn, with his top leutenants. I believe they were Scramblehead and Davis. They took Sharon's corpse to the front door and tried to hang her, in order to make the murders all the more notorious. Between the three, they were too weak to perform. They got her partially off the ground, which the pool and droplets of her blood on the cement prove, but could not hoist the weight of her and her days-from-delivery child enough to suspend her.

They stupidly fought on the lawn, deciding to drag her back to where they found her and then try to erase or obfiscute evidence they were on the scene. The pool and droplets of blood on the doorstep substantiate his in-court claim (as told to his counsel), as does eyewitness accounts Chuckiepoo and Davis and Clem weren't around to be seen the next morning.

Keep in mind, it was the 60s, and Benedict Canyon was still a relatively seclusive (sold as "EXCLUSIVE!!") and, therefore, empty, twisted zedhead-zone canyon of real estate between Mulholland Drive and Sunset Blvd. There was still lots of empty land, where buyers were still unwilling to pay millions for cantelevered waiting-disasters of quake, fire, and mudslide. Plus, the Family did this on an August Saturday night, the least likely night for them to get away with the screams of mass slaughter in a canyon rich with wealth, fear, and the wealth of Beverly-Hills-Wannabe sprawl.

They got away with it, two fucking nights in a row in the richest areas of the richest country in the world.Yet we have the temarity to ask why it also happened in a far poorer section of a far poorer county of the same state, within the richest nation in history?

The USA 'citizenry' is a lame bunch of lounging fools who let the 'justice system' become a biased gimp of a bully that stole Tiny Tim's crutch. Proof? Chances are you're watching AMERICAN IDOL while attempting to grasp the base point of this long post.


I know there's lots of lies about the Seabolts, some of which we've generated. Me. I once loathed Zonita's description of not trusting Sue, while smiling/laughing on camera. I've since learned tons of footage was left on the cutting room floor, that her smiling and laughing was due to shyness, regret, nervousness. I've also learned many of her concerns saved her kids' lives. Had she trusted Sue and allowed them to stay at 28 that night? At least Alysa would be dead on April 12.

(Any Tate/LaBianca researcher should know of the wannabe-celebs who claimed to have been invited to the Tate 'Party' that night. They are all liars, no party was planned or existed. It's tantamount to all the 14 yr-olds in 72 who claimed to have been born at Woodstock.)

We do have Jamie going up the back steps, looking through the house. We do have Sheila saying Uncle Don may have been through the cabin before LE arrived. We certainly have Sheila making many differing statements about what she saw, did, who she called, who she was with. Apparently, she's now claiming she never went to the Albins to call PCSO. Occam's Razor tells me this newish lie is meant to deflect from her own claims she called Don first, he arrived first, and went through 28 before LE arrived. Well, the new lie, instead, reinforces statements of what she actually did.

And Sheila's new lie comes in the hollow echo of Zonita's death- Z being the sole main confirmator of Sheila's earliest known storyline.

Personally, if anyone but Sheila was at the Albins that morning and called Don Davis, it would still have to be Sheila. Who the fuck else would know his number? That, alone, makes me believe there are so many liars about what they know, when, and their reactions. Sheila made those calls, and is now lying.

Personally, if anyone but Sheila was at the Albins that morning and called Don Davis, it would still have to be Sheila. Who the fuck else would know his number? That, alone, makes me believe there are so many liars about what they know, when, and their reactions. Sheila made those calls, and is now lying.

Look at all who lied about seeing/being awake, etc:

Justin was awake and involved- zero doubt.
Rick was awake, and I can see no logical reason he was not forced to be involved. ZERO.
Greg admitted he was awake, and I don't see why the killers would make him do anything further than watch. Crimely faked that interview, turning off the tape. They had to. But they still left a faked paper trail of some of what he said.

The story is Jamie and Sheila and Zonita pried up the window and pulled the boys out. Not too logical. Said they then looked into the higher window of the girls' room and found nobody inside. At first, I thought that impossible, as the house is on a deep slope and it wouldn't be possible to see in that window from ground level, even on shoulders or stilts. I remembered a huge pine between 27 and 28, and an attached fence, but I thought it was where the bathroom window on 28 still existed.

WRONG! Nothing like double-checking old photos: The tree, and the fence attached, was much further downhill. By the side window of the Girls' bedroom. Jamie climbed that fence, looked through the window, and decided nobody was in that room, dead or alive, from tat crappy viewpoint. At least not on beds.

No, I still know Jamie is lying. I believe Sheila is, too, on this sole angle.

I believe Jamie was afraid of LE, and rightfully so. Even though he told Hank what he'd done, someone got to him- or truth sank in- and he refused to repeat his truth: After looking through the girls' br window, he continued over the fence into the back yard, turned the corner, ran up the back stairs, and entered the house through the door which the killers had left ajar.

Yes, there is ample evidence the killers used the back stairs: Dana and John didn't leave it ajar, the killers did. John and Dana didn't turn on the back stairs light, the killers did. Dana nor John left the bloody print on the stair rail. A killer did.

This entire case is lying killers, lying cops who knew, and lying witnesses more afraid of cops than killers. Wake up to that eternal fart, as this case reeks.

Jamie told the first-responder who interviewed him that he pulled the kids from the window, ran to the back of 28 and up the stairs, and looked through the cabin for surviviors. I believe he looked around 28 after lowering the boys through the window while he was inside 28. NOT pulling them through from the outside.

Occum's Razor: It's easier to lower the boys from the window from inside rather to beg them to climb through. "ALL OF YOU! Stay calm! Do not go through the door to see what you already know about!" Jamie's story of running inside AFTER awkwardly pulling them through the window makes less sense than lowering them out the window. It's much easier to open that window from the inside rather than the deep slope outside. And, unlike the doors, wouldn't they be locked? Shit, I'm actually surprised it wasn't painted shut. Except their wasn't much paint on that house on the whole. Yellow, white, green, red. Bare wood.

Don't expect exemplary work or logic by LE twixt 81-13. Don't believe anything/everything LE claim those on-scene first discovered, nor believe how LE characterize a person or (single/series of) statement (s).

I have explained about 5 reasons, over and over, why Sheila was where she was and why Tina died instead of Sheila. It's Seabolts/Sue wanting Sheila at 27, because Sheila tried a sleepover and failed. Apparently, it's Sheila's first attempt to get friends to come to 28 for a sleepover since she came back to Plumas after giving birth to Richard's kid. Sheila is at 27 for this simple reason, explained five ways. Try not to make Sharps less than the victims they were. Unless you can undo all of the known truth with new facts, it's a dead topic to me. All of the spec that anyone in 27 is in-the-know, much less is involved (including Sheila), is wild and dangerous. And painful.

I've got all our original research, I personally found Bo is related to Hy Larner, GW Bush, CIA drug deals, etc. Yet only I find it HILARIOUS I'm about the only one who finds no direct connection of drugs being involved in the actual murders in 28. Reddiots and other web-scummers claim I've said it's all about drugs and mafia and covert CIA ops, that it's all connected, that I've even said Keddie is a CIA drug deal Outfit Vegas Reno hit. Laughable horseshit by liars and hammer-filled pond scum.

Instead, I've proven all those mafia/CIA connections without ever claiming Keddie is connected, whatsoever, to Bo's (or anybody's) mafia shit. Mike thinks Crimely was called in because of Bo, but nothing in the audio of those interviews tells me Crimely knew of Bo b efore April 12, 1981. My info only proves Crimely were there to undermine any prosecution of the killers.

I've, instead, proved Bo and Marty never met at the VA in Reno, and that any POI saying so is in the Loonibi. Marty and the Boubedes knew each other long before all athe Loonibi claims, which makes all the following liars:

MARILYN
Marty
Bo
Dee Jay Lake
and more...

all these liars saying Marty and Bo first met at the Reno VA days before Bo showed up at 26? They are FUCKED!

No, the lie is so bad. It indicates them and SO FUCKING MANY OTHERS. Even Doug Thomas and his clan. PCSO could have stopped the killings. It was that obvious. It IS that obvious, in ways I can't yet divulge. But, to me, it's clear Marty and Bo should have been in jail on heavy charges long before April 11, even if under the names DeSantis and Lake.

Don't let these vacuous cunts get away with murder. Look at the bleed-out spots on the carpet, compared to known wounds. I think 99.9% of long-termers don't see the obvious.

We know two people were awakened due to the screams. Same location, same bed even. One woke up to it and alerted the other. The position of that house to the back window of the girls' room is a home fucking run to Tina screaming: direct line-of-sight to her position in that room. Questions, without any forethought, will continue to be posed about why the Seabolts slept. Fuck them, I'm so damned tired of this topic. Without a fresh perspective and new input, the subject is as stupid and dead as Marde Smartt.

ALL THE BOYS WERE FUCKING AWAKE. THEY KNEW. WHY would Justin continue to lie and be called a willing participant, but Rick isn't? Oh, fuck my dead mother! The psychology behind Justin's involvement and willful denial is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT to Rick's. Or Greg's, for that matter. Become a degreed, expert psychologist, renowned for disproving Stockholm Syndrome, then we'll talk.

Knife marks? Do and 'advanced search' for 'knife marks' with dmac as the author. I've explained countless times all known knife holes were ABOVE the height of Dana, the tallest victim, and clustered opposite the bunk beds, and clustered opposite the boys' closet, where they hid.

Bottom line, all your Qs have already been answered. But I've added much meat to the bones of the case in this long, rambling reply.
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
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Re: Confused and puzzled newbie asks:

Postby Boudreaux » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:20 am

Dmac, sorry to put you to all that writing, but it was very helpful for me. The issues of Zonita being short-quoted (the laughter was out of context), Sue's boys having that knowledge, the 'window escape' for the boys, Davis's movements and Sheila's phone calls ... all this makes perfect sense now. The 3-D walkthrough on youtube -- I watched that in the last couple of days and that perspective really helps. And I realized that all the windows might have been shut tight--it gets cold at night even here in Mayberry, NC; up in the California hills I'm sure it gets colder at night more of the time.

See why, on another thread, I said that "Dmac must be getting tired of explaining things to me" or something like that? :-/

This whole case is a study in horror and failed justice. The fact that there are still so many people around who MUST know at least something about the case is frustrating.

For the record: I've never watched any "reality TV" show of any kind, not once, not ever. About all the TV I ever watch are old syndicated sitcoms--we usually watch one as we dine, but that's almost always the only TV for the night--and I'm fond of the occasional bad movie on this cheesy OTA channel--only black and white, usually vampires or mad scientists or (best of all!) big monsters in rubber suits destroying Tokyo before the flying atomic turtles retaliate. :-) ("The ghost of Dragstrip Hollow" is a particular favorite.) I don't think they make TV for adults any more and I can't stand 99.5% of what's on; I read detective novels or military history at night.

Anyway, thanks again for the help and please feel free to ignore my dumb questions, I can see where they get tiring. Sorry.
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Re: Confused and puzzled newbie asks:

Postby dfc9781 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:47 am

I really hope that charges can be filed on one of the main conspirators before they die! Some of the others as well. It seems like there's already enough evidence to go before court.
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