Justin

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Postby meankitty » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:46 am

Islander--I think I'll answer your second post by the number referenced.

33. I think the knife marks in the wall could have been made by a right handed person.
39. I don't think the boys bedroom door was shut all the way because of the clothes. I don't know whose clothes were there.
40. I don't think the fingerprint got a hit then. I do believe the button came from a perp.
42. From what I heard, I think Doug Thomas only took 2 classes in hypnosis.
44. If Marty was a perp, telling the cops his hammer was missing was a stupid thing to say. Also, Josh did post a further interveiw with Doug Thomas because this one did seem slanted.
47. Tina's jacket could have been left there earlier. It seems to be extremely risky to Marty to put Tina in his basement, and nothing that Marilyn or Casey said indicates that Tina was in their cabin that night.
50. I believe this was Dana's jacket at least according to the timeline.
52. As far as I know, the rumored female perp was Marilyn. I can't see how she could do the murders, given her size.
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Postby meankitty » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:52 am

coffee is love wrote:24 on the timeline has bothered me for quite some time. at least more than some other things. mainly because justin claimed to have covered up sue. so two people did? or he is lying. i am no detective either but if the two men were dressed up exactly the same, to me that would suggest a disguise and premeditation.

this might seem silly but ive wondered if its possible to get a petition going and signed by locals to have this case taken over by someone competent enough to handle it. i dont know if that would do anything though.
It's possible the perps were dressed the same (denim jacket and jeans) but eyewitness testimony can be unreliable. Ever since I saw the composites 28 years ago, I have always thought of the guy with the mustache as wearing a plaid shirt, and the taller guy with the shoulder length hair as wearing an olive drab army jacket. I don't know why this stuck in my head unless I did see those 2 somewhere. Incidentally, if you were looking at a 10 foot height for the bedroom window, I think it was the girl's room window you were looking at.
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Postby dcheryl83 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:06 pm

Will someone please answer my question?

Wasn't something said about Justin and one of the other boys hiding in a closet?
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Postby coffee is love » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:09 pm

i wrote that last comment only assuming justins statement is true. (which i dont really think it is). i think that two men dressed alike would have stuck out like a sore thumb. especially given all the people in keddie that night.
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Postby coffee is love » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:10 pm

yes according to justin him and the boys hid in the closet. and i believe thats where they supposedly fell asleep
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Postby islander » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:42 pm

Im not pointing fingers at anyone.

For instance, i have an old delapitated shed on the back of my property I NEVER go into. I have no idea on a month by month basis what is in it. If for the sake of argument, someone did a similar murder here in my town and dumped evidence in my shed, i wouldnt know it was there for 6 months between visits when I stand there and wonder if this is the year it falls over flat or not.

I once watched a heroin addict pop a dead bolted door in about 1.2 seconds. Literally. It was his own door, he forgot his keys. And yes he was high at the time.

Making Marty the pasty in the crime is a valid point however, Marys actions are a few shades beyond odd all the way along.

Size means nothing in a fight. Two scariest ppl I ever met in rl were a 4'11 Malaysian girl, and a guy youd walk past 1000 times in the bar. Youd recognize neither as dangerous. The guys idea of fun was going downtown Vancouver BC and beating up Chinese Triad members "I can handle 7 or 8 at a time, after that there is just too many". He wasnt kidding. In a fight between him and the Malaysian girl, I honestly dont know who to bet on for the winner. I have a feeling shed win. Not saying Marlyn had training, not even saying she was there. Not even confirmed there was a female there, but there is rumors of one, and covering all the bases is a necessary evil.

At some point Justin claims the door to the kids room was closed with a chair propped up against it to prevent opening. Bu morning it cant be closed at all due to clothes in the way. Which statement is true ?

Fingerprint analysis isnt as easy as made out in Hollywood movies. There is no super computer that will take a print and match it to one in a digital database. At best it will give you a rough idea who to look at, then they must be checked with human eyes, a long tedious process.

2 days of hypnosis classes? Are you serious ? So basically Justin was never *really* hypnotized. This news given all the other mishandlings of the case doesnt surprise me one bit. Hypnosis btw wont work if the subject resists. The subject has to be willing to undergo the process and needs to actively help it out.

Id love to know who both jackets belong to. The one found in Keddie and the one found with Tina. All the clothes found near her need to be analyzed.

Justin publishing a book ? Money is a great motivator. Human kindness sadly can never be relied on. Human greed can always be. If he has information that will help solve a homicide, why arent the police standing on his door asking questions ? This isnt something for his publisher to help announce, its something police need to take an active interest in. Their actions all thru their so called investigation are as suspicious as any of the possible murderers. I also dont get why the FBI stopped treating Tina as NOT being a kidnap victim. Would the local cops at the time be able to ask them to stop assisting in the investigation ?

For that matter, as a point of interest for me, what is the food chain of cops like in the US ? Here we have city police, some provinces have their own provincial police (Ontario and Quebec) and then we have the RCMP who handle the bulk of policing throughout the country. RCMP would be top of the food chain in Canada. Can someone please tell me how it works in the US ? Also in Canada we have a thing (rarely used due to the expense of it) called Private Prosecution. You can go before a judge and make a statement that you believe a crime has been committed that for whatever reason isnt being investigated. The judge can then order the police to begin investigating. Rarely used because YOU are responsible for ALL costs involved in the investigation including policing time. Anyone know of anything similar in the US ?

As far as being "placed" in the cabin, the only question I have is "Why trust Justin?"


Only ones who are gonna trust Justin to that degree are family. A stranger doing the murders will cheerfully add him to the list as its proven they had no issues murdering children. This is something that bothers me about this case. The boys in the back room. It leads me to believe this was a spur of the moment thing, not a "lets go down there, kill Dana, John and Sue, kidnap Tina, but make sure you dont touch the other 3 kids ok ? " sorta thing. This whole part is just weird from start to finish. I do feel that the killers had a personal grievance with the family. I still think things got out of hand which lead to the murders.

There are ways to tell *approximate* ages of victims. For instance along the skull are cracks that as a person ages get tighter/fuse together. This is a fairly standard process in all humans. Is it able to determine down to a month level the age of a victim ? Im not sure.

I just went and tried a very unscientific stab test on some wood. Im left handed, and when using my left hand the raised portion on the wood is to the RIGHT when removing the knife. When I use my right hand the raised portion of the wood is to the LEFT. Right handedness is by far more common than being left handed. I also checked my shed, nothing in it as usual. Still wonder if this is the year it falls over flat tho. Its listing like the titanic after hitting the burg. :lol:

Sue was tied up with wire leading from her wrists to her ankles. I do think Justin could have been in too much shock and denial to run or do anything.


Initial shock is normal. There comes a point however when you DO do something. Hanging out in a cabin with 3 dead bodies (and he would have to have known they were dead/dying by his own admissions) is just simply odd. Going back to sleep ? How ? I personally would be at the very least staring wide eyed at the door all night worrying the killers came back. His attitude as described seems to be one of if not indifference, not worried about his personal safety. Why ? I dont get it unless he knew hed never be a target. Having said that, having to stay in that cabin all night at his age for whatever reason he did must have been psychologically damaging. If he was put up to assist in the killings as say a look out, or if he was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, i cant help but feel some sympathy for his 12yo self. His actions as an adult are strange and harder to forgive/take sympathy for.

Staying with an abuser .... visit any womans centre and you will find that same question asked over and over. There is a psychological term called Learned Helplessness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness That might help understand their actions.

Coffee is love: its struck me a few times police involvement to some level here. Making a few mistakes in an investigation is normal. This transcends a few simple mistakes and goes into the realm of, in my personal view criminal incompetency at best, or deliberate and criminal destruction of evidence and obstruction of investigating a major crime. I simply cant understand the actions of the local police. Is it possible that the local cops had a previous interaction with the killers ? You pay me X amount and you can run your games. Killings happen and killer says, you keep your mouth shut for what I did, Ill keep my mouth shut for what you did.
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Postby Zenobia » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:22 pm

Islander, very interesting and well thought out posts. Why were the three boys allowed to live? If we could answer that, I believe we could solve the murder. I do believe that the killers did not know the boys were there. The Cabin was too small.
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Postby coffee is love » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:00 pm

lets just say that if it was ever proven some of the cops here were found guilty in participating in some way or another, i would not be the one shaking my head in disbelief. anyone ever hear what happened with the cop and his wife whose lives were threatened last summer? and why?
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Postby Zenobia » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:07 pm

coffee is love wrote:lets just say that if it was ever proven some of the cops here were found guilty in participating in some way or another, i would not be the one shaking my head in disbelief. anyone ever hear what happened with the cop and his wife whose lives were threatened last summer? and why?


Which cop was threatened?
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Postby coffee is love » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:20 pm

i think it was hagwood. the guy walked up to his wife and said something like "tell your husband i know where you live" and something like "be careful"
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Postby bliss » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:16 pm

I have never heard Hagwood was threatened? where on earh did this info come from?
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Postby coffee is love » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:42 pm

the cops were going around asking people if they saw or talked to the guy. and looking for security tapes from the local businesses
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Postby noom » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:51 pm

Islander-

Sadly the judges on a county and state level do not hold any jurisdiction over a police department when there is no conviction/arrest pending in a crime unless new compelling evidence was offered and it can be shown the police department did not follow up accordingly. But even then, the Police have their own internal departments that handle that action.

A family member can hire an attorney and a private investigator. The attorney can file motions to get all the evidence turned over to the private investigator, any expensive testing would most likely be at the family’s expense.

Would be quite easy to find an attorney to take this case pro bono and I am sure there would be a few private Investigators that would work for a reduced fee. Creating an organization would get attention for the case and raise money through donations to have it re-opened. :wink:
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Postby islander » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:49 pm

@ Noom

Private prosecutions are RARE here simply because if the police felt there was enough evidence to seek a charge they would. I dont know for certain but its probably a hold over from some ancient English law brought over from England. That and as I said cost of it. Cuts down on abuse tho i suppose.

Thanks for the info helps a lot since I dont know how your legal system works other than bits and pieces Ive read.
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Postby dcheryl83 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:00 am

coffee is love wrote:yes according to justin him and the boys hid in the closet. and i believe thats where they supposedly fell asleep


Thank you for the reply Coffee. If that statement was true, then how come the other boys don't know anything? I mean why would they go to sleep in the closet unless there was something that they were afraid of?
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Postby jhancock » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:05 pm

One of the boys was about five years old; I don't think he could reveal much. However, we probably won't ever know if Ricky saw anything or not. It will forever remain, I think, one of the gaping holes in the case.

If Justin apparently saw everything (again, in his own words, he knows who did the murders, then where were Rick and Greg while Justin watched? Sleeping? Watching, too? Hiding?

We are grateful that the killers did not take their lives as well...but why didn't they?
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Postby Night Rider » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:32 pm

A: What if the kids had NOT come in whenever they did? Maybe the scene would have been slightly different?

B: if the perps knew how to find the cabin, they should have known who lived there.

C: Perhaps neither Ricky nor Greg really had a clue as to who they were. If they were both asleep, and they heard what was coming down, staying hidden in the bedroom sounds like a great idea to me.

D: these perps had a problem, their thought processes were very messed up. Why complicate it with two more victims?

E: Maybe Tina was the real target, then they got what they wanted, right? Was Sue just an "impediment"?

F: There was waay to much overkill here, especially for where the crime occured. Why? A message? or something else?
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Postby islander » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:12 pm

Night Rider makes some very valid points.

The overkill for suspected reasons is WAY over the top. Ive seen ppl get mad at drug rip offs. Never heard of them getting so violent. Normally if you owe someone its better to have you pay them back, as the person you owe is part of the food chain too. That is you buy from someone who buys from someone who buys from someone etc. A street dealer is rarely close to the top of the chain. Usually there is several people to go thru to find who came up with the original stash.

Tina as target ? Then why kill her some months later ? That doesnt make sense unless her death was accidental after kidnap or she managed to escape some time after kidnap but was caught again or died of exposure/injury trying to get to help. Sad. But then taking her after killing 3 other people doesnt make a lot of sense either. From what I have heard Sue wasnt the kind of mother to allow her daughter to be used in say a sex ring. But still, would someone go so banana's on her for refusing to send her daughter to spend the weekend at "uncle Chesters" house ? That seems over the top too. Why not just shoot them take Tina and drive off ? Why be so brutal about it ?

Making a statement to someone ? For what ? Maybe a bad drug deal involving coke, heroin, something that draws unstable people to begin with. Even then how often did that happen in 1981 ? More common now in the US I understand, at least killing over bad deals. Was it common then too ? Just doesnt make a lot of sense. Strikes me there is more to it or maybe its a grouping of things ?? Maybe this is a stupid question but was there rumors of a pedo ring operating in the area ? My understanding is the vast majority dont kill their victims, and the vast majority turn out to be a family member, so i dont know what sorta sense that make either. If any at all. No Im not accusing any family of being involved.

The way they died is just .... too much. Almost as though the killers wanted to kill them over and over again. Too many possibilities, not enough reasons that make sense.

frustrating
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Postby Night Rider » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:06 am

Great thoughts, I have thought along some of those lines. It is so frustrating, nothing makes sense, then along comes Justin.

We really are going along with some of the developed intel in discussing Tina in the intervening time. But there are questions there also. I really hate to mention this, but was Tina dismembered as reports said?

If Tina was not the target, is Justin telling the truth? Did she just walk into it? One way that that makes sense is if she DID know the perps. Question: Was Sue's name the only one ever spoken?

The murder of Joe Hoover was very senseless, it was done by one of my Shadows.

However, was this all smoke and mirrors? Even the placement of Tina? I have always had a hinky feeling that some things were done to make it all "Helter Skelter" looking. Too many locals are pointing too many fingers in too many directions. A few people have blinked when I have suggested "Marty as stagehand?" But not necessarily as killer.
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Postby islander » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:11 am

Ive tried writing this a few times and it just comes out all ridiculous sounding.

If Tina was the target, then why all the extra bits ? So very much easier to offer her a ride after school and make her disappear than kill most of her family.

Its possible, however, someone was molesting her. This is something family might not know about at least at first. Tina finally confides in her mom, her mom obviously freaks out on the person and threatens to go to the police. This person then freaks out and decides the easiest way out of 20 years playing bf to Bubba the lifer is take care of Sue. They boys would then become in the wrong place at the wrong time. Younger kids would be too young to make good witnesses over the altercation between Sue and the perv. She probably wouldnt even have told the younger children *IF* this is true at all.

This is hard to prove one way or another. Other than if Tina was being molested typically there is behavior changes in that person. This is something only Sheila can answer. Typical behavior changes include but are not limited to:

* Waking up during the night sweating, screaming or shaking with nightmares.

* Masturbating excessively.

* Showing unusually aggressive behavior toward family members, friends, toys, and pets.

* Complaining of pain while urinating or having a bowel movement, or exhibiting symptoms of genital infections such as offensive odors, or symptoms of a sexually transmitted disease.

* Having symptoms indicating evidence of physical traumas to the genital or anal area.

* Beginning wetting the bed.

* Experiencing a loss of appetite or other eating problems, including unexplained gagging.

* Showing unusual fear of a certain place or location.

* Developing frequent unexplained health problems.

* Engaging in persistent sexual play with friends, toys or pets.

* Having unexplained periods of panic, which may be flashbacks from the abuse.

* Regressing to behaviors too young for the stage of development they already achieved.

* Initiating sophisticated sexual behaviors.

* Indicating a sudden reluctance to be alone with a certain person.

* Engaging in self-mutilations, such as sticking themselves with pins or cutting themselves.

* Withdrawing from previously enjoyable activities, like school or school performance change.

* Asking an unusual amount of questions about human sexuality.

No idea if she exhibited any of these signs. If she did then the chance she was being abused would be higher, but doesnt necessarily mean she was.

So how does this relate to the 2+ men who did the attack ? Were they in it together (abusing her). What is the chances youd come out to a friend no matter how "tight" you were with them with... "listen man, Ive been molesting this child can you help me take care of her mom or Im going to jail for a long time"

Slim to none.

The other part that nags me is the rumors. Rumors are as powerful as reality to some people. As an example I used to live on one of the smaller islands off the coast here. It was rumor central, and those rumors didnt need to bear any resemblance to reality. Case in point, my fav one about me was i chased cats naked thru the bush. I kid you not :lol: It didnt matter that the forest here is huck and salal and running thru it if a physical impossibility. I realized i wasnt fighting reality, I was fighting their sense of humour. And lets face it, a hippy stoner freak running thru the forest naked chasing cats is a whole lot more funny than the reality of sitting in front of the fire reading books and smoking large amounts of weed. But some people will swear it was true on their mothers graves. After that I used to start rumors about myself just to see what would come back. Kept me amused. :wink:

So my point is... there is rumors of Sue dealing and prostitution. Rumors take on a life of their own and reality doesnt need to rear its ugly head for a lot of people. Just the rumor itself is enough to convince some people it HAS to be true. So perhaps someone was dumb enough to believe those rumors and made an offer to Sue about her daughter(s). Sue would of course go banana's about being asked such a thing and a fight would ensue with threats being made. Now the guy(s) is/are scared. They just outted themselves to a now outraged mother. They decide Sue needs taking care of. If only to threaten her into silence...

Did it happen this way ? I cant say without a LOT more information Ill probably never possess.
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