Justin

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Postby dmac » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:13 am

Wow, Aussie. Nice post. I was trying to state a case in consideration of the child, on another thread, and this knocks me out of the water. Gladly.

Well done.

It's not too far to ask speculation on a child's memory to be reserved to that person, huh?

As far as hypnosis, it's closer to ghost stories than fact. Just as "lie detectors" are as faulty as the miscreant giving the "test", but at least there is a whisp of science behind the bullshit of lie detectors.

Hypnosis offers doctors and no science. Welcome to Thailand, heal you quick.
Last edited by dmac on Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3438
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 756 times
Been thanked: 2957 times

Postby Ausgirl » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:18 am

Oh- whoops - wanted to add a note about time.

One thing I've noticed - time is very often skewed in recall of traumatic events. Events may not only be 'masked' but also be recalled in all the wrong order. Many survivors of long-term abuse have issues with keeping track of time in general, all their lives, as a result.
User avatar
Ausgirl
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:35 pm
Has thanked: 250 times
Been thanked: 381 times

Postby dmac » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:22 am

Dammit, now I must look at you contemptuously.

Oh, well, I'm used to doctors lying about their mistakes. Why should I be angered that you amended your intelligent opinion with more intelligent opinion?

OK, lawsuit dropped.
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3438
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 756 times
Been thanked: 2957 times

Postby Ausgirl » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:41 am

Well. There's proper application and improper application. I do not think of hypnosis as quackery. But that doesn't mean quacks do not apply it.

A good and compassionate psychologist, trained to work with PTSD and the like, also trained and experienced with clinical hypnosis could be of great help, in cases like this.
User avatar
Ausgirl
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:35 pm
Has thanked: 250 times
Been thanked: 381 times

Postby dcheryl83 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:11 am

There"s a thread in here that talks about the hypnosis of Justin......do not believe any transcript was offered. He was hypnotized shortly after the crimes (so I guess he was 12), by a police officer who was not trained or properly trained. What he said was similar to the statements he gave to police. I'll see if I can find the thread so you don't have to search for it.
dcheryl83
 

Postby Ausgirl » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:18 am

Forensic hypnosis is recognised by courts and law enforcement agencies around the world as a useful tool for collecting and clarifying eye witness testimony. Opinions notwithstanding, it's accepted practise. Also, a very different animal to therapeutic hypnosis.

And thanks, cheryl!
User avatar
Ausgirl
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:35 pm
Has thanked: 250 times
Been thanked: 381 times

Postby dmac » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:28 am

dcheryl83 wrote:There"s a thread in here that talks about the hypnosis of Justin......do not believe any transcript was offered. He was hypnotized shortly after the crimes (so I guess he was 12), by a police officer who was not trained or properly trained. What he said was similar to the statements he gave to police. I'll see if I can find the thread so you don't have to search for it.


to paraphrase, you believe Justin's hypnosis session is flawed and, therefore, untrustworthy?

Sorry, but forensic hypnosis is 100% bullshit. Forensic Somnambulists Dreaming of the Future Past. Dream on.

Ausgirl wrote:
A good and compassionate psychologist, trained to work with PTSD and the like, also trained and experienced with clinical hypnosis could be of great help, in cases like this.


I apply that logically, like a good doctor or good lawyer. An oxymoron.

You can't be a real doctor, as you've already spoken real truths. Therefore, you don't exist under that proclamation. You'd demand money by now.
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3438
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 756 times
Been thanked: 2957 times

Postby Ausgirl » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:59 am

dmac wrote:You can't be a real doctor, as you've already spoken real truths. Therefore, you don't exist under that proclamation.


I haven't anywhere said that I'm a doctor. I do, however, have knowledge on the particular issue of mental trauma and memory.
User avatar
Ausgirl
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:35 pm
Has thanked: 250 times
Been thanked: 381 times

Postby dcheryl83 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:54 pm

So do I Ausgirl. Please keep posting.
dcheryl83
 

Postby Night Rider » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:45 pm

Hypnosis has been used, and abused by LE far longer than most of us realize, do some research on the Hurd and Orne guidelines, they far predate the case.

Then go search out "People v Shirley" That is the decision that would have been used to shoot down ANY testimony offered by Justin.

Then if you want to read a real horror story about "repressed memory," look up the "George Franklin" case. (San Mateo Co. California, early '90s) He was accused of murder by his own daughter, years later.

It's been said that Justin does not want to talk to PCSO until he allowed to see what he supposedly said to investigators back in the day, good idea...
Night Rider
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:10 pm
Location: Sacramento
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Postby Ausgirl » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:09 pm

I think, regardless of those who'd abuse it, hypnosis -could- be a good investigation tool. In the right hands.

Hurd and Orne were primarily concerned (from memory, kick me if I'm wrong) with not getting forensic hypnosis muddied with therapy and other issues that may compromise accurate recall. And rightly so.

I don't agree with it being used for testimony, for the very reasons you cited. But as a means of finding clues, where all is clueless, and face it, it HAS helped, over the years, in many many cases.
User avatar
Ausgirl
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:35 pm
Has thanked: 250 times
Been thanked: 381 times

Postby dmac » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:05 am

It has the accuracy rate of psychics, lie detectors, and darts thrown at a map. The lack of science and discipline destroys the tool, if it is even remotely effective, and it makes bloodletting by leech look like a proper LE tool.

Let's leave the surviving victims alone and out of this discourse. If they wish to step forward, so be it as their own decision. It is out of line to debate their state, motive, or knowledge (repressed or otherwise). Sheila is classy and brave enough to stay involved, and we treat her with blatant respect. Why can't we show the same discipline and tact elsewhere?

Justin's statements about books and solutions certainly bring him out of the blanket protection I ask for above, but please temper that with all the crap Justin's been thru.

See? Compassion is easily achieved.
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3438
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 756 times
Been thanked: 2957 times

Postby Ausgirl » Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:27 am

I read somewhere that the cop involved had taken a couple of classes, but I don't know if that's accurate.

It's also entirely possible to lie directly or by omission under hypnosis. It's not like a truth serum or anything. It only, as far as I know, helps people recall in better detail what they percieved, and only what they want to remember.

I do not mean any disrespect to Justin, at all, but to me, at this point, things seem to make far better sense without his statements. The pieces just do not seem to fit.

I am not in any way calling Justin a liar, please don't think I am. But memory, especially traumatic memory, is a strange thing, and not always a reliable reflection of what actually happened as far as linear recollection goes. And he was only a boy, poor kid. I cannot imagine what that was like for him, I really can't.

But then, nothing about that night was sane, and things have obviously become extremely muddled since. I'm really eager to see any whole or part direct transcripts of the first or second hypnosis sessions, if they are available any more, aside from the snippets quoted elsewhere on this board. They may or may not help me get a better grasp on Justin and the events, but I'd like to have the chance, as something about it is bugging me.
User avatar
Ausgirl
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:35 pm
Has thanked: 250 times
Been thanked: 381 times

Re: Justin

Postby William Lee » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:42 pm

I just wrote a LONG post in reply to you, BT. I accidentally lost it (due to a nerve-damaged bum right arm/hand that I am having a lot of medical problems with--along with many others these days--& I lost it as I can't seem to press single buttons on my mouse every time). Might just be for the better. I'll try to be more succinct and less edge-of-vitriolic in this reply. Listen, man, I do not feel you are trying to be rude... most of the time. Neither was I nor am I about to be, so take that in mind:

You ask, "Why do people say 'Tina is the key'?" The answer is, for the most part, the ones that do so believe that her abduction is the "wild card' in this case that may hold the most evidence as to what went down in the cabin and why, plus why Tina was the only one taken from the scene. People could be wrong. Doug Thomas said she was the "key" first, publicly, the day of the discovery, to media. His reasoning MAY have been more so based on their (LE) supposed initial theory that Tina was a culprit, not a victim. So, as a "wild card" in the scenario, there's your answer, and here it is again: some feel Tina & her abduction holds clues that are closer to the heart of the reason for this crime AND the culprits; some don't. (Aside: Another "wild card" is that the boys were left alive, so did Justin being there have something to do with this? Does that part hold clues we need to work out this crime as best we can? Many "wild cards", my friends, many.)

But, surely you know this. You claim to have voraciously read the old C28 board, that goddam carnival of vitriol, anger, misinformation, trollish-behavior, fear-mongering, lies, AND kernels of info dire to understanding this case; did you pick up the right parts or were you clouded by the "excitement"? You ought know why "Tina is the key" is a mantra some folks here & there & elsewhere hold as important. I feel some things you've posted--or bumped, as it appears...--are rhetorical, question-wise, and I'm not saying it's not cool to ask questions, no sir, quite the opposite, but as others have tried to tell you, this forum holds the answers ALREADY to most everything you're asking; use the search, use your past knowledge gained from C28 & also what you can get from here, as no one minds answering things that are either not referenced plainly already here, just please understand that IF you've read & retained from this forum ALL the existing threads and the INFO & FACTS they already contain, you'll be better suited to answer your own questions without having to (basically) bump a hundred threads that all of us existing members have to read, often only to find that you need an answer that IS ALREADY HERE, and not that impossible to find on one's own.

I AM NOT saying that we don't wanna answer your legit questions, but you're asking a lot yet professing knowledge of the case that seems contradictory (and thus rhetorical, even if you really are just asking a question). Please also understand this and why I feel respect & credit ought be given where it is due: several on this forum have done independent research that has uncovered previously unknown--and MOST VALUABLE--info on the "elusive Bo" that had NEVER been known to us; info on Marty; Mr. Josh H. has worked his ASS off on this case & provided SO much info, and he continues to do so and it is SO helpful; there has been work done by other members to aide the rest of us AND new members--& those totally new to the case--and INTERACTIVE TIMELINES have been created & honed, MAPS of Keddie and the entire surrounding areas, distances checked, rechecked, ever-evolving contributions that have caused a dare-I-say NEW & IMPROVED perception of the crime scene and Keddie at that time so as to better grasp issues such as closeness of cabins, locations of cabin-dwelling witness reports and where they fit in, plus work on studying the crime scene ITSELF, diagrams, body-placement, correlation & study on the reports available, and all of this work has been done to aide people trying to legitimately do SOMETHING to help the LIVING VICTIMS--Sheila, Rick, Greg, the Wingate's... and no, in my opinion, NOT Justin E., whom I feel IS a "living victim" due to what happened to him as a child but I feel he has lost my respect & concern due to his chosen actions and paths (and pathos) as an adult--Justin nowadays freely admits to "know what really happened and who the killers were", but his lack of concern for Sheila & the others cause me to disregard his being someone I care to help "solve" this for.

People here--by the kindness in their hearts--have & do try to at least drag as much info into the light so as to help the victims... even if in the end the best accomplished is that they can feel they know AS MUCH FACT AS POSSIBLE. HOPEFULLY that can help them get past this evil done to them, by perps that probably escaped justice to eventually die as "innocent until proven guilty" murderers. They DESERVE their names besmirched by the crime they committed--and admitted to, in Marty's case, even in death and posterity.

Sorry for the "rant" (and it isn't one but still), yet I can and am expressing MY view of this conundrum you have occurring, how you bump every thread possible to ask questions it seems you already "know" the answers to OR don't care for the answer to yet ask in order to state your opinion. Which is fine, but I know by some it isn't appreciated. By this I mean your method, not your opinion (that Marty & Bo are innocent). Whatever. But if you have REALLY read this forum's existing threads & info, studied C28 & what it held that was worthwhile (maybe 10% of the non-BS), watched the videos & films, then I can't see you REALLY not knowing the answers to most of these questions you ask: did you REALLY not know why this statement about Tina is what it is? (Rhetorical, as I am sure you do.)

I feel that to not have studied the available info shows a dedication to voice your opinion that Bo & Marty are innocent--which is fine...--yet it insults the FINE WORK SO MANY HAVE PUT INTO THIS CASE, solely because they want to HELP Sheila & her family. If I'm out of line, I'm certain some vocal members--you included--will "set me straight". I read this forum & the new posts regularly, but do not post or interact much these days--health issues--but I still would have liked to have been a better & more productive members, not just an opinion-caster. For that, I do apologize to all here. Still, I appreciate the work done by others & do not clog the system (often) with questions that they've already answered a million times over; the answers can be found but if they absolutely can't, man, ask away. Or do it anyway, as you have. This is just my advice, and this is just my opinion.

Tina and her abduction--alive or dead at that time--is a "wild card" in this case. The boys and whether they were known to be there, whether they were knowledgeable that SOMETHING was going down, Justin and his being there, his statements to LE--AT THE TIME--and since, otherwise & not "officially" to LE...--did the perps return or not, staging, ALL "wild cards". All worth scrutiny.

I hope I've not been out of line... especially after having to "catch up" by reading two hours worth of questions & statements that could've been answered with research and on a silver platter that has ALREADY been worked on & completed by wonderful persons here trying their best to make this case in the least better understandable, thus opening it up for serious opinion as opposed to some odd rigmarole of random pick-&-choose statements or questions that set things back & not forward.

I welcome you as a "new" member, tho you've been here a while. Please don't take my words wrong, if indeed you even take time to read & consider them. No reply necessary, even. But, as you see, we're willing to talk & answer questions & help out, but if you've formed an opinion on the perps already, then, I feel, you ought KNOW why "Tina might be the key"... So get on with stating your opinion as to what REALLY could have happened. Who murdered this family and Dana? Who? Why? And if Marty & Bo ARE guilty, then LE deserves to have their asses set on fire to right the potential wrongs they committed years ago; these crimes LE committed--in my opinion--are worth dragging into the light. Someone, or something, MUST answer to these valid discoveries. Look what has been learned through hard work about Bo; about Marty; all pre- & post-crime. Look at what LE screwed up, and ask yourself "why?"... These people didn't deserve their demise & the living victims do not deserve this blockade of justice.

And THANK YOU to all that have helped in these AMAZING eye-opening discoveries.
William Lee
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:10 pm
Has thanked: 59 times
Been thanked: 54 times

Re: Justin

Postby Ausgirl » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:01 am

I'm bumping this entire thread because there's some truly brilliant posts in it, particularly from Islander:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=104#p909
viewtopic.php?p=910#p910
viewtopic.php?p=979#p979
viewtopic.php?p=1012#p1012

and an excellent suggestion from noom:
viewtopic.php?p=1026#p1026

I thought perhaps it would be interesting to revisit some of the thoughts expressed in this thread in light of the mass of new information this past year.

Those deconstructions of Justin's statements are really good, and very succinct. Thanks Islander, albeit belatedly, for those.
User avatar
Ausgirl
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:35 pm
Has thanked: 250 times
Been thanked: 381 times

Re: Justin

Postby twinmum » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:00 pm

could justin be more involved and that is one of the reasons he hasn't said more, could it have been his job to get tina round to his own house while the madness was perpetrated and to keep her there til marde and bo came home? i dont think he did anything to her but it would make sense to make the other victims more compliant if they thought she would not be harmed by the person she was with if they did what they were told? it would also account for her coat been in the smartts cellar and how they were able to keep her subdued while they commit the murders, she actually may have felt safe with justin.
twinmum
 

Re: Justin

Postby Chichibcc » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:11 am

SLCer wrote:I do wonder how visible he was to the killer(s). It's hard for me to imagine that two murderers would be indifferent to a watching kid. There is just too much risk at hand for that to happen. He could get away and get help, identify them (even if he didn't know who they were) and you're not going to murder three people, kidnap another and leave a potential witness alive and well.


Well, if Marty was involved, killing Justin would've been a big no-no, considering his relationship with Marilyn, so that was just totally out of the question. I think that Ricky and Greg were also left alive as a way of "throwing off" the authorities-by leaving only Justin alive, it might have been too obvious who may have been responsible. So the other boys had to be left alive as well, as a way of pointing suspicion in another direction. Plus, the other two boys didn't see anything, so it would've been a "win-win" situation for Marty and Bo.

SLCer wrote:When dealing with crimes like this, you've got to enter with the mindset that ANYTHING is possible - even if it seems beyond the pale. Sure, no one likes to drag the name of the dead through mud, but sometimes you have to to clear all motives. Sue had a history. Sue had a reputation. Did that reputation lead to these murders? Did she promise someone something and didn't deliver? Did she get mixed up with the wrong people? It happens all the time. Lowlifes, sadly, can do the most unthinkable, heinous crimes. Did Sue cross someone's path that had no conscience, no soul?

Or is it entirely unrelated to Sue?


I think the gossip and rumors surrounding Sue were just that, nothing more. There's been absolutely no proof at all that she was involved in drugs or prostitution. I think she was just a quiet woman with limited resources who was trying to take care of her five kids the very best she could with the little that she had.

Yes, she dated several men while in Keddie, but that in itself doesn't make someone promiscuous, or mean they're a prostitute. She was an adult-she had the right to date as many people as she wanted, and it was really shouldn't have been anyone's business but hers.

As for drugs, if that was really her "scene", why weren't any found in the cabin? Just total nonsense to me. Plus, her ex-husband was an alcoholic....I just don't see herself putting herself in that situation again-by not being with him anymore, she was trying to get away from all that, anyway.

I still don't get what people had against her....were they jealous of her, for some reason? Or just tired of the boredom that comes with small-town life and decided to spread a few rumors "just for fun?" Were they threatened by her because she was new to the area, an "outsider," too "different" for them? I think it's a mixture of all three, actually.
User avatar
Chichibcc
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:08 am
Has thanked: 666 times
Been thanked: 250 times

Re: Justin

Postby Chichibcc » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:12 pm

SLCer wrote:Still would like to know about Tina, though. Even if Justin is telling lies to cover someone's ass, why take Tina? What was Tina worth to them? I don't know. Like I mentioned in my original post, it's extremely risky leaving the scene of the crime with a victim in a situation like this. It rarely happens. So, it makes me wonder if they were spooked and had to get out faster than expected or if they had strong reservations about killing a 12 year old girl. Either way, what happened with Tina has left me with a lot of questions. Did the killers want her? Did she really walk in on them? If she did, why risk taking someone who could escape or yell or be seen?


I still don't really know what to make of the Tina aspect of the case, but I also agree that taking her from the cabin, alive, was pretty risky, just making things more complicated for the killers. Yet, they thought it was worth the risk, for some reason. It is truly mystifying. I'm wondering if they decided to keep her alive to do something devious to her, as far as sexually, but that's the only reason I can see her being taken alive. I really, really hope I'm wrong on that.
User avatar
Chichibcc
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:08 am
Has thanked: 666 times
Been thanked: 250 times

Re: Justin

Postby dmac » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:34 pm

When you consider the amount of premeditation behind the crime, and factor in the vast and alarming amount of staging that took place after the murders, what you're left with is an incredible amount of stupidity by the criminals, which manifested itself in unnecessary risks being taken, and lots of evidence and pointers left behind leading directly to said perps.

Look at this case without any knowledge and you must admit whoever did the murders did, in fact, remove Tina from the scene and dumped her body several miles southwest. So, whoever did this crime was STUPID ENOUGH TO TAKE THAT RISK.

Bo and Marty were both incredibly stupid, inept criminals. Considering where we were one year ago, it's amazing how much we now know about the level of brutality and brainlessness behind Bo's bent background. Needlessly violent and cruel as a thief, bank robber, and home invasion robber, like his mentor Jim Rini he was arrested every other day and NEVER given a harsh sentence. He was a rash, stupid, inept criminal in his youth, just as he was when he entered cabin 28 on April 12, 1981.

PREMED
The killers brought a kill kit, including at least two rolls of medical tape, an air gun, at least one knife, and possibly a hammer.
The entire "argument" at the bar was likely a ruse to establish an alibi. They wanted to be seen and noticed.
They left the bar, changed clothes, gathered their tools, and went back to the bar. The tape and knives could easily have been concealed in pockets, but the gun and hammer would have been left near Cabin 28, likely in the weeds across the road.
After closing the bar, they went directly into 28 and evidence supports that they went directly into the girls' bedroom and attacked Sue.

STAGING
Each body, including Tina's, was moved after death. Sue, Johnny, and Dana were all attacked and bound postmortem as part of the staging, a period of time after death long enough for Dana to show signs of lividity. Likely, immediately after the murders, the killers removed Tina from the cabin and hid her body. Upon returning, they did the staging and cleanup on the other bodies, then left. Hours later, after the crimes were discovered, the killers moved Tina to Camp Eighteen.

STUPIDITY
Halfassed premed: they tried to make it look like a random, sudden act by bringing a kill kit, yet left plenty of evidence behind proving premed and proving multiple tools were brought to the crime.
They tried to establish an alibi at the bar, but were stupid enough to change clothes before returning to "apologize" for the argument.
They left behind cigarettes, Marty's prints on the bloody glass, and witnesses. The only people they could NOT logically kill were the occupants of the boys room, because killing Justin was not an option and leaving only him alive would have pointed the finger directly at Marty. YEt they did this crime, knowing full well that Justin was there.
The vast stupidity of the Loonibi the three of them concocted!
Every statement or interview they ever made afterwards.
Marty's confession.
...to name just a few. The list goes on and on....


The evidence is overwhelming. Bo and Marty and Dee were certainly stupid enough to drive Tina's body to Camp Eighteen while much of Plumas' police force was busy at Cabin 28. In light of everything, it fits like a glove.

Instead of wondering if Tina was taken for any reason other than staging, they either intended to remove only Sue from the cabin but lost control of the crime, or they factored Justin and the boys in as "controllable" during the premed phase. Either way, their plan was asinine, and perhaps the single best example of what a couple of moronic, heartless, criminal scum Bo and Marty were.
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
reach me at
keddie28 AT gmail DOT com
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3438
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 756 times
Been thanked: 2957 times

Previous

Return to just speculatin'

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron