Newbies Ask the 'Experts'

[wonderer]

Whilst reading everythign though sometimes a question pops in your head and not sure if it's been answered somewhere or where to find the answer? Would it be okay to raise those questions in one post? Perhaps one already exists?

Like for instance... Due to two cabins vacated on the 4th, were they searched after the murders?

Is there any evidence or pictures of the cubby house marilyn mentions? Was there really a jacket with blood found? Was it red or something else?

[dmac]

Which cabins were vacated on the 4th? Do you mean 4/1/81? 13 and 15 were vacated *by* April 1 (according to LE), but that info is also disputed. But it's a moot point, because we have no files indicating any cabins or buildings were searched after the murders other than 28, 26, and the playhouse.

The club house (playhouse) was mere yards from the front door of 26, where the killers lived. It's right across the dirt road running in front of the cabin, and up on a rise. I'd say 30 yards max. Here's the playhouse, as seen from the front door of 26, and here's several shots of the playhouse itself.

As for the red jacket, Loon's said a lot about it, such as:

"Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: Tina’s jacket
Just to answer your question, Tina's jacket was not found in the club house. They weren't even sure that it was Tina's jacket. The jacket in question was found in the basement of my cabin. "

Tina's jacket is said to have been read (or red). I'm having difficulty finding refs to it in my documents due to my bad memory and not recalling if LE called it 'jacket', 'wind breaker', 'coat', etc.

A blue jacket and jeans were found buried and recovered near Tina's remains, but there is no determination we're aware of if any of the items collected at Camp Eighteen, other than Tina's bones, are related to the crimes. It is interesting to note that an empty med tape dispenser was found, and that the rear pocket was supposedly missing from the decomposed portion of bluejeans. If they are Tina's jeans and the pocket(s) was perhaps removed due to the rainbow patch, then why would the killer leave the jeans and tape dispenser at all? If they're going to dump Tina alongside a rural road, like a piece of trash, why leave any other evidence nearby? Lots of things to wonder about, but I don't see how it will progress the case an iota.

[wonderer]

Well I guess this really belongs in speculation with the lack of facts available. But the question was really to add credibility to either theory of leaving walking /alive out or not.
seeing if any of Marilyns statements at all had any credit. I saw the play house eventually in your pic uses and there is no floor boards. So sounds like everythkng is made up on her side.
However didn't Sheila and Marilyn state it was a red coat not blue?
Weren't two cabins left vacant on the 4th of April? Frank mike and another couple? Plausible hiding place for a body?

And I would guess the masking tape roll could off been left on the roll and would point to a tied up and quick dump than the holding scenario.

Understandably all the more knowledgeable people want to move forward rather than rehashing if buts and maybes but fresh eyes and conjecture can't hurt?

[wonderer]

And I thought the jeans were found in the hallway?

[Princess]

You are right Fresh eyes are always a good thing. As for the jeans they were found by Tina's remains at Camp 18 and a blue jacket.

[dmac]

6-21-84, approx 1030 hr I left via helicopter to Feather Falls. On arrival I met with an investigative team supervised by Det. Sgt. Steve Wright. The team consisted of Sgt. Wright, DOJ Crim, Sgt. Young, Deputy Carillo, and Deputy Combs. We went to the actual location of where the body was found which is Camp 18 on the Feather Falls/LaPorte road approximately five miles north of Feather Falls. I found the location to be approximately 100 yards from the Camp 18 turn out. DOJ SA/Crim pointed out the exact location in that he was there on the original search by the BCSO. We searched the area for any evidence that is missing or could be connected to this case. Sgt. Wright located an empty medical tape dispenser and a portion of a pair of Levis in the area. Sgt. Young located a decomposed blue nylon coat that was buried near the road in the camp. With the aid of the helicopter, I took several photos of the area.

The above was from a search of Camp 18 AFTER Tina's bones were recovered. They sent the red cloth off to DOJ for analysis, hoping it was material consistent with Tina's missing jacket They also sent the chunk of blue jeans and tape core, as well as a pink cloth sash/tie/belt found in the vicinity. Results?

Item S-VII [pink cloth tie/belt] item 1 bears a knot which is similar to the knot in the brassiere (Item S-II Item 2) and dissimilar to all of the other submitted knots.

The red plastic (Item S-VII item 4) is not from a jacket and is probably boundary ribbon of a different width and color than that submitted on item S-VII item 3.

The possibility of cuts in the jacket and blue jean material (Items S-VII 7 & 8) cannot be determined due to the deterioration of the material caused by its being buried for a prolonged period of time.

The metal band (S-VII item 9) was buried for at least 6 months.

All LE recovered demonstrates the searchers knew enough about the case to know what to look for: Anything to do with medical tape; The pink clothing found by Alyssa Seabolt at the swimming hole on Keddie Flats; missing blue jeans; missing RED jacket.

What's interesting here is the DOJ document implies Sue's bra was used as part of her gag. Other documents reference her panties were used. Read her autopsy report for all refs to the gag:

A facial gag is present consisting of 2 portions of cloth extending around the lower portion of the face with the anterior portions both being in the mouth. The under portion of cloth has the appearance of a blue bandana. The outer portion has the appearance of a nylon female under garment.

WONDERER: I took the photos of the playhouse. There are floorboards, but it's impossible to rip them up as Loon claimed. The boards are thick lumber, and the walls are attached to the outer edges of the floorboards, thus making it impossible to pull them up. It's an old utility shed, probably built by & for WPRR.

The Keddie Roster lists 13 and 15 as empty due to tenants leaving by that date (Mike Davis in 13, Matosich in 15). Mike is Dee's pal and taxi, was pals with Marty and Loon, and he came up with the Avery Schreiber reverse-alibi for his pal, Tony Garedakis. It's claimed the Albins booted him from 13 for drug trafficking. Yet he said a year or 2 back that he moved out the day of the murders, and took his last boxes out just hours prior to the murders. Oh, he moved to an address on Junction Rd where Dee Lake is also known to have lived.

[Cheshire]

"[T]he Albins booted him for drug trafficking" So who "narc'd" on him? Maybe the neighbors in 28? And everyone who needed to come up some BS explanation of why their fingerprints might be found on hammers and axes at or near the crime scene (or who had some unbelievable explanation for why they might have been seen in the area that night) should have risen right to the top of the suspect list.

[dmac]

This post hits the same territory... was KK also given the boot and, if so, for the same reasons?

Here's a shot of an outbuilding just south of the water towers by Keddie Station. Same construction as the play house: large 6x2 lumber was used on the floor of the playhouse. Just imagine that wall as the playhouse floor, and identical walls placed atop the floor. No damned way to pry up those boards. Anyone claiming they saw boards torn up is a LIAR.

To pry up floorboards of the playhouse, one would have to remove the roof, remove the walls, remove the floorboards, then replace the walls and roof. Yeah, that's what Loon said Bo and Marty did after she and Bo and Marty murdered four people in 28. Yeah, right, Loon. Once again, Loon is lying to point away from her own direct involvement in the murders.

I'm dead-certain the railroad guys constructed both the building shown below and the storage shed (later used as a playhouse by the kids), using the same basic specs and same supplies handy to the RR crew. They didn't have a wide assortment of lumber and, as you can see, their construction was very thick lumber, and the building was incredibly sturdy. Lack of an outer shell (decent roofing and weather protection) doomed the buildings. None of these outbuildings were on foundations, obviously- they were hastily and sturdily built multi-use shacks:

[wonderer]

"[T]he Albins booted him for drug trafficking" So who "narc'd" on him? Maybe the neighbors in 28? And everyone who needed to come up some BS explanation of why their fingerprints might be found on hammers and axes at or near the crime scene (or who had some unbelievable explanation for why they might have been seen in the area that night) should have risen right to the top of the suspect list.

The other part of this angle is perhaps Sheila felt she needed to report their activity because of their influence around Johnny?

Or suspected her as she was the newest resident and close neighbour?

Don't suppose anyone could ask the albins how they came to find out?

[dmac]

You also must trust the source: the reference to the Albins giving Mike Davis the boot comes from a single ref in a document assembled by LE, a document overflowing with skewed statements, misrepresentations, and outright lies.

Mike claims he left Cabin 13/Keddie due to a rent hike mentioned in a Christmas card from the landlords. Um, Xmas is late December... it took him four months to find new digs? I call "bullshit" on Davis, yet again.

[DB92]

Has anyone ever contacted the Albins to find out what they have to offer the case ? Any other residents of the resort post on here or been contacted ? You have to feel anyone in the immediate area or who knows any of the suspected perps, tony, dee, marde, bo, loon, mike davis or even the Meeks knows enough. Such a frustrating case.

[justice17]

Thank you to all of you who are dedicated to this case. This site is set up very well and I think you have done a better job than the LE did back in 81'. I stumbled upon this case while I was doing a google search for the movie "The Strangers". There were claims that the movie was "loosely based" on the Keddie crimes.( I now know, it is not true.)
The more I have researched this case, I have become obsessed. I think about "what could have happened" all of the time. I feel like I know the victims. Sues autopsy was very difficult to read. What it tells us is, this poor woman witnessed the most horrific things right before her eyes and there is nothing she can do. I am sickened by the fact that at least 2 of the POI are deceased. (HOPEFULLY, there is a HELL).

I do have one question: ARE THERE PHONE RECORDS available for Loon and Sue's home phones on the night of the murders?

the reason I am asking is I keep getting the feeling that they did not go to Sue's door on the night of the
murderers, Loon just called her on the telephone instead. Sue might have said "No BO guy creeps me out" or "no, because I do not care for your Husband Marilyn". Then when MMB return to the Smartt cabin he picks up the phone and simply hits REDIAL.
1. DOESN'T SUE GET A PHONE CALL "WHO IS THIS"?!
2. LOON SAYS IN THE 1ST DOC. "WE MADE A JOKE AS WE PASSED BY SUE'S CABIN".
3. LOON SAYS " I THINK HE WAS TALKING TO JAN".
4. SUE'S PHONE IS LEFT OFF THE HOOK. DID SUE DO IT SO MARTY WAS NOT ABLE TO CALL AGAIN, AFTER SHE HUNG UP ON HIM?
5. WE KNOW THAT ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THE KILLERS Did ~ CUT THE PHONE LINE. (they even know where it is in the dark and clutter IN THE BACK OF CABIN 28.

[dmac]

justice17, I'll try to respond in order:

Sue's autopsy is the most difficult to read, as she got far more abuse, alive or dead, than John or Dana. I'm the one who suspects she was alive to witness the other murders, not the ME. I could easily be wrong in my layout of how things happened, yet I still believe Dana was intentionally killed first, strangled to death (which takes MINUTES, not seconds) to show bound-and-gagged Sue nobody was going to live. For all I know, the killers may have realized they accidentally killed slight and weakest Tina early on, and ramped it up from there. Nobody's tabled that concept.

The info on Bo's death is not great. The court used to generate his death certificate is notorious for fake IDs, and Bo was under legal or illicit protection by LE. Was? Still is.

There is a thread abt Sue's phone records. Only long distance calls were recorded back then. She only contacted friends and family.

I don't buy Loon knocking on Sue's door (she wants Sue to be Bo's date, yet leaves Bo and Marty out in the street?). It makes no sense, and it's meant to throw suspicion away from Loon, towards Sue ('working on something by the couch', where cops took baggies into evidence), Marty, and Bo. There was that one call where Rick answered the phone, handed it to Sue, and she said "who is this?" We're meant to believe it was a short threatening call? Well, the phone cord reached throughout the entire house. The kids were watching TV and eating popcorn. Did any of us entertain the idea the boyz were zoned in on TV, not paying attention beyond "who is this"? I don't believe the killers called Sue. Even the "Who is this" call doesn't match that idea (unless Bo was the caller), but it did pop out to me, so thanks for being the very first I know of to think of it- not a shabby new idea.

Sue's phone was off the hook. More importantly, as you know, the phone cord was cut from the bedroom wall and neatly coiled on the floor near Sue's head in the living room. Double whammy. Like wearing a belt and suspenders.

"I think she was talking to Jan"? Refresh my memory on that point, in need a refresher and a link.

I think your other Qs are already answered by my answers or your own Qs (the phone call, the phone left off the hook, cut wire neatly coiled...)

Decent Qs, I hope my answers help.

d

[justice17]

Thanks Dmac. "Your Newest Newbie" has just realized: i have only been copying and pasting statements into a word document as I go along making my own timeline. I cant find the Jan information but will look further. I will make sure to note which area I copied the information from so it will be easier to refer back too.

I believe this one below came from Loons statement to LE. (noting POI)

The statement below also leads me to believe that she did not see Sue that night. Loon describes it as almost like a dream and she can't swear to it. (just in case she is wrong?).


I could see us (Person of Interest, Bo, and myself), walking down to the lodge. We were walking past Sue's and Person of Interest told me to ask Sue if she would like to join the three of us. Idid tell him, I did'nt think she would go but that I would ask. As I suspected, she did'nt want to go. I do believe she was already dressed and ready for bed (possibly relaxing after the kids went to bed), but can't swear to it. She was however, sitting on the couch working on something. I returned to M&B and we continued down to the lodge.

[justice17]

I think this was a lust crime (Tina), a revenge crime (Sue). Dana and Johnny were killed because they were witnesses and according to Marty, "disposable puck ass kids". I have researched why a murderer would stage the bodies and leave Sue exposed the way she was. I was surprised to find out that POSING A BODY in a murder is very telling and is very RARE. ( I will post the source that I gathered this info from after this post).

Here are some of my notes starting with MBB arriving at home the first time.

1. Marty makes a phone call from their cabin

2. Marty says "she can’t talk to me like that, let's go". At this point they do not go back to the bar. (I think the police would have been called, because they were no longer welcome in that bar).


3. I believe it's now around midnight, they take the rifle with them, sneak into sues unlocked cabin, (up the back stairs). They listen to hear if there are noises in Johnny's room. Sue is on the couch asleep. They ambush Sue. She wakes to a rifle in the face. They Gag her, Maybe they hit her with the hammer? maybe a head wound which bleeds out quickly. Sue gathers up all the strength that she has, and tries to get up to protect Tina, (blood on bottom of Sue's feet). she is stopped and tied up really good. Maybe a stab or another blow to the head.
I think a bloody handed Bo or Marty head towards Tina's room. (Bloody fingerprints are found on the door knob as he peeks in, and only one blood drop on the sheet. He GAGS Tina and takes her into the same room as Sue.

4. I am not sure how it went with Dana and Johnny. They either came home and entered the main cabin, while it was going on, or came home and were downstairs in Johnny’s room when they heard something going on. They run up the stairs to check it out. They still had their jackets and shoes on, so I assume they were just getting home. Dana tries to run away and we know that he is strangled to death.

5. Unfortunately, beautiful Tina, is a Pedophiles dream, and she is living in a location that had plenty. I think that Bo and or Marty raped her. I do not think that she left that cabin alive. Her body was hidden somewhere and disposed of later to throw off investigation and to hide evidence.

(The reason Marty "had to get back to Keddie" "had to finish something". I think Bo was at the the Smartt cabin waiting for Marty to return. He didn't return that night as he promised, and it is spray- painted on the kids play house (where the murder weapons are buried & possibly Tina) "F...you Marty. (Left by an angry Bo). We know that Marty leaves the Meeks house at 4AM the next morning. (needed to get there super early before any of kids went into "the playhouse".

6.The fact that Marty brings up “my hammer is missing”. Did Bo hide or take that bloody Hammer as “collateral” Why else would Marty volunteer this information to LE?

7. Marty mentions that he HAS been in cabin 28 and knows what the Sharps hammer looks like? Even if he had been in that cabin just one time, why would the thing he remembers is , [b]a hammer and exactly what it looked like?[/b]. The ONLY other explanation for that, would be that Sue and Marty WERE having an affair. Although UNLIKELY. Sue had already gotten rid of one abusive Husband. Why would she want someone else's?

one thing that bothers me though- with all the violent activity that went on that night, don't you think that at least one of the murderers would have a cut or a bruise?

[justice17]

The rarity of "unusual" [corrected] dispositions of victim bodies: staging and posing..

The act of leaving a victim's body in an unusual position is a conscious criminal action by an offender to thwart an investigation, shock the finder and investigators of the crime scene, or give perverted pleasure to the killer. The unusual position concepts of posing and staging a murder victim have been documented thoroughly and have been accepted by the courts as a definable phenomenon. One staging case and one posing case are outlined and reveal characteristics of those homicides. From the Washington State Attorney General's Homicide Investigation and Tracking System's database on murder covering the years 1981-2000 (a total of 5,224 cases), the relative frequency of unusual body dispositions is revealed as a very rare occurrence. Only 1.3% of victims are left in an unusual position, with 0.3% being posed and 0.1% being staged. The characteristics of these types of murders also set them apart: compared to all other murders, in staged murders the victims and killers are, on average, older. All victims and offenders in the staged murders are white, with victims being disproportionately white in murders with any kind of unusual body disposition. Likewise, females stand out as victims when the body is posed, staged, or left in other unusual positions. Whereas posed bodies are more likely to include sexual assault, often in serial murders, there is no evidence of either in the staged cases. Lastly, when a body is left in an unusual position, binding is more likely, as well as the use of more "hands on" means of killing the victim, such as stabbing or cutting weapons, bludgeons, ligatures, or hands and feet.

Reliving the Crime Extends the Fantasy (Tina’s box or art project taken)
Killers like to take trophies and souvenirs from their victims. Keeping some memento — a lock of hair, jewelry, newspaper clips of the crime — helps prolong, even nourish, their fantasy of the crime. In my research, I’ve seen this happen again and again.
Here’s what to look for in an investigation: Is there anything missing that belongs to the victim? Often police will mistakenly look for valuable missing items. But I’m not talking about a stereo component — that’s an impersonal item. I’m talking about something more personal — a ring, earrings, even costume jewelry — something the victim was wearing at the time of the crime.
Maybe they’ll keep the victim’s driver’s license. Some will leave it intact. Others will get rid of everything but the picture, so they just have a little wallet photo of the victim, as if they had some kind of relationship going.
In the more sadistic cases, some killers will take locks of the victim’s hair, or even go so far as to cut off the head or other body parts.
What’s interesting is that they often give the souvenir — particularly jewelry — to a family member or significant other. The recipient could be the wife or a girlfriend who was causing the subject grief at the time of the crime or was involved in a confrontation with him.
Disorganised Lust Killer
• Below average intelligence.
• Socially inept
• may not have access to a car – so will locate victims closer to home or work than the lust killer who does have a car.
• acts impulsively and randomly.
• They usually use weapons that require close contact with the victims, such as knives or hands.
• classic anger retaliatory motivation on the part of the offender towards this victim. The killer will spend a considerable amount of time with each of the victims and engaged in activities which went well beyond those necessary to kill the victims. In fact, there was a classic progression of violence inflicted on each new victim. Each of the bodies had been posed for “shock value.” However, it is also apparent that the offender was satisfying a personal need and he apparently got a sexual thrill in the manipulation and posing of his victim’s bodies.

Source: http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Resear ... ly2010.pdf

[Lioness]

Wow, Justice... For a newbie you are all over this. I am overwhelmed with all the info here and don't know quite where to start.

[justice17]

Hello Lioness, it is nice to met you. I live in California also. Oh, I completely agree. It is EXTREMELY overwhelming.
I had surgery and have been off of work, so I have a lot of extra time on my hands right now. I was on this site daily, reading a lot for at least 2 weeks prior to requesting membership. I started with the For Newbies section. I stayed quiet because I did not want to annoy our Senior Members with a retarded question. I realize that they have been working on this for YEARS.

I read that many older murders have now been solved because of today's advanced DNA testing. Why not this one?
DNA WAS GIVEN TO VARIOUS INVESTIGATING AGENCIES AFTER THE AUTOPSIES... It .must......................be..........................................................................................dusty...............sitting there..................... labeled................somewhere.......................................................on a dusty shelf................................

THESE VICTIMS DESERVE JUSTICE NOW.

[dmac]

The DNA Freezer

As has been mentioned several times, scattered around the forum, DNA results came back abt two years ago matching at least one DNA sample to a living suspect.

As for Tina's 'project', I am highly doubtful it ever existed. We have documents concerning the box Johnny did in shop class, used to hold tools and normally found on the back enclosed deck. We have mention of the box Tina was supposedly 'very attached to', as DT said in part one, but it's usually people talking about it in Josh's vids or on forums, not in documents or files. Loon has, of course, posted multiple stories of what the box supposedly was (including a diorama), none of them consistent. There's even confusion from many involved whether the tool box Johnny made and Tina's 'pet box' are one and the same.

It's clear the killers probably took the tool box. They also took several other things from the cabin, including the weapons they brought, and cardboard box(es). Many items, including bloody cardboard, bloody tissues, and a multi-knife similar to what Justin described seeing, were recovered from the trash bin between the gen store and dorm. I don't believe Tina was alive when taken from the cabin. When asked how Tina was removed without causing a disturbance, Marty admitted she was 'incapacitated'. Either way, she had clearly been attacked, and logic dictates the blood in the bedroom came from an attack at the very beginning, when the killers entered the unlocked cabin and went straight to the girls' bedroom.

THIS WAS A HOME INVASION MASS MURDER

[justice17]

DNA came back positive for at least one living suspect! WOW... LE has proof and they do NOTHING?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2eklb ... footage_tv

Is this Justin speaking to this woman? She just pretends like it is Josh on the line? Justin wanted to stay anonymous? Is Justin in on the documentaries with Josh? I mean, did Justin also make a profit from them?



Am I wrong?