I have some questions about Tina

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

I have some questions about Tina

Postby sorrytointerrupt » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:23 pm

Hello everyone,

I'm not quite ready to speculate yet but over the years I've noticed a number of questions come up about Tina that I think might be relevant that I never saw answered. Hopefully, I just missed the answers somewhere else in the threads but regardless these are my questions regarding Tina.

There was the suggestion that Tina might have been pregnant and therefore abducted or body hidden to hide that fact. She was only 12 I believe and seemed to be maturing physically slow for her age? She looked and presented as a 9-10 year old. At the same time, finding out whether or not she was capable of becoming pregnant seems possible. Sorry to be so crude, but we ought to be able to find out if she had started menstruating or not. Sheila would have known if her little sister had started her periods. And if Sheila is offended by the question (understandably) then I think the woman (Social worker/teacher) in the first of Josh's documentary would have also known if she had started her periods. If not her, Mrs. Seabolt might know and not be shy about sharing and even Marilyn/Loon might know. If we can determine whether or not she was capable of pregnancy, it would answer the question of whether or not a potential pregnancy was a contributing factor or not, right? I'd hope we can reduce the unknowns by finding out if little, sweet Tina was even capable of pregnancy at the time of her death.

There's so much conversation regarding the sexual abuse Tina experienced in these posts. There are also so many posts listing the names of other sexual predators and pedophiles living in her area at the time. What I've never seen is the name of the person that actually assaulted Tina? Why not? Did I miss it? Is it because he/she never was prosecuted for the potential crimes regarding Tina? I'd like to know who he/she was and if there was ever a prosecution later for a different crime then it should be public information to share the name of a known pedophile that also had interactions with Tina.

There were also statements of other subsequent potential abusers of Tina. Has any of this been substantiated?

And again at the risk of being crude, was it ever established through medical examination before the 12th that Tina had in fact been sexually abused ? Was her hymen intact? Did she provide any statements from her that we have copies of written or oral that confirm that she had experienced some level of sexual assault?

I believe that she was assaulted. Unfortunately, I believe that she was assaulted multiple times by more than one assailant. Whether or not it plays into the events of the 12th, I certainly don't know but I do think it's relevant to find out.

There's numerous reports about a 12 year old girl who was slow to develop both physically and cognitively but was also beautiful, sweet and very affectionate. For people that have dealt with young victims of sexual abuse, it's a normal pattern for the victims to become even more affectionate and more sexualized afterwards as a response and as a validation that their original assault was not a victimization (we all live in various stages of denial).

Probably my last questions about Tina for now (but not ever :), have to do with the forensic examination of her skeletal remains when they were found. The forensic expert stated that he thought she died shortly after the 12th because she appeared to be roughly the same age as when she disappeared. My questions have to do with what he based his scientific conclusions on? If he was basing it on her overall development, we already know she was small for her age and seemed like she was younger then she was. Did he know that before his examination? Did he take that into account? So if he didn't and based his statements on what a "normal" 12 year old girl would present as then he could have been off by a year or more! In order for Tina to have the skeletal remains consistent with a 12 year old girl she would have been potentially alive for a considerably long time after the 12th. If the forensic expert based his findings on more than just skeletal development, then I'd like to know how he established her approximate age at the time of death.

Why did I start with my questions about Tina? I'm not saying I believe one way or another that the murders had her as the focus or starting point. I don't know!! I just think it's incredibly significant that her body wasn't found at the scene with the other three victims. And I think knowing why she wasn't there is an important part of figuring out the overall case.

Thanks, Brad
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Re: I have some questions about Tina

Postby Chichibcc » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:31 am

sorrytointerrupt wrote:What I've never seen is the name of the person that actually assaulted Tina? Why not? Did I miss it? Is it because he/she never was prosecuted for the potential crimes regarding Tina? I'd like to know who he/she was and if there was ever a prosecution later for a different crime then it should be public information to share the name of a known pedophile that also had interactions with Tina.


Here is the official report on that incident, with the perpetrator's name included, in this thread: http://keddie28.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=783&p=14204&hilit=french#p14204
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Re: I have some questions about Tina

Postby kmik » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:51 am

Brad, here are some facts that we do know: Tina's father was a molestor
Tina had accused Daniel French of molesting her the year before
Her teacher, Joel Lipsey ,was a child molestor
Tina was the only victim taken from Cabin 28
Marty Smartt confessed to the murders of Sue and Tina

Read "Exerpts of Reports saying TIna was pregnant by Marty". A lot of that may be "gossip" but usually there is some truth mixed in somewhere no matter how many times it's denied. And if Trish Pettis worked at the health department she was only worried about keeping her job (much like Mona Green). I do not know if Kathy Beckley was known to lie but she did know Dana and had dated him.
I think when we question Tina as the motive for the crime, then many people feel like we are saying that these people were not involved in drugs, and that is not so. We know most of the people who were connected to this crime were involved in drugs. I just do not believe that was the motive for the crime. Marty Smartt had already been taken to the Reno Va Hospital Psych Ward about a month before the murders by Dee Lake. (Dee Lake is also the one who brought Marty AND Bo back to Keddie from Reno).

I don't have the answers and may be way off -but I get tired of being told that there are no facts to support any of this. The crime scene begs the question : "Why Take Tina"?
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Re: I have some questions about Tina

Postby dmac » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:37 pm

Sheila's not commented on the case since, in her 'book' (scrawled in crayon by her hubby, Tofu Dick Wiffleballs), she plagiarized 'her ideas' of how the murders went down directly from the work we on the forum did. Then slagged us off everywhere- including in her 'book'. When Sheila was The Spokesperson for the case, she was far less than truthful or helpful. Other than attracting attention to the the murders, I think she's done little more than cause a great disservice to her family and other victims. Had you asked Sheila back when she was still "fully cooperative", she'd have ignored you just as she did the rest of us.

The woman in the vid is Tina's last regular teacher, and I don't think she had that kind of relationship with Tina. Joel Lipsey, (who was at the very least grooming Tina and other kids for molestation), was Tina's Special Ed teacher. Mrs Seabolt may have known, but she passed away a few months ago. Finding someone that would absolutely honestly know, and having them absolutely and honestly speak the truth? It seems the eternal impossibility of this entire case.

Other than the half-assed and 100% jackass PCSO response to Tina's July 80 molestation, there's nothing we know of medically re: Tina other than dental records- Including supposed documented proof Tina was pregnant.

    "There's numerous reports about a 12 year old girl who was slow to develop both physically and cognitively but was also beautiful, sweet and very affectionate. For people that have dealt with young victims of sexual abuse, it's a normal pattern for the victims to become even more affectionate and more sexualized afterwards as a response and as a validation that their original assault was not a victimization (we all live in various stages of denial)."
I can't improve on that.

Going from memory, the ME who initially examined Tina's scant remains (her cranium), Turhon Murad, mentioned the rough age in the first report based on his findings of size of male vs female, which is why his estimate was younger than Tina. He believed she died at the time of the murders or shortly thereafter, based on what he learned about Tina's underdevelopment. I believe his full explanation is in Pt. 2.

kmik, a couple things- ► Apart from glimpses of three tiny fragments (probably taken from one case file), where is the possibility of Tina being pregnant mentioned? And when was the report made, when exactly were these rumors flying? The report is a response to "he said/she said" gossip and denials, with Shanks thrown in as the original source. Why did Josh choose to show only a couple frames of three snippets? It would be about the 1000th time we've seen Josh tease with things taken entirely out of context. What else, other than a completely suspect airing (by Josh) of SELECT FRAGMENTS of that report, indicates a blatantly underdeveloped Tina was pregnant, much less the focus of the murders? Why would they remove only Tina's body (other than she's the lightest for these weakling cowards to lift), Marty and others give full indication, just read their words: Marty specifically told how he'd get rid of Tina, over the bridge because cars would be too noisy at that time of night, then he lied about the bridge gate being constantly locked. He also said 'they' (Bo, Marty, Loon) thought Dana did it 'cuz he had a few screws loose', but said Dana was a victim, not a perp, so then he settled on James Sharp as the perp, because Tina was missing and she was his favorite. Why dump Tina's body? So Marty, et al, could throw off suspicion of who was involved and why. ► Daniel French was a perp, not an 'accused'. He molested two girls that day, after grooming them, and the parents still let the kids run wild! Horrid! ► Joel Lipsey is, indeed, a molester, and I fully believe he was doing far more than grooming his mentally underdeveloped students back in 81. But he didn't gt CAUGHT until years later. Makes me puke! ► I'm pretty sure the lady mentioned in the preg report is also the one Dana's said to have been dating, but A> it's unconfirmed; and B> Dana purportedly having relations with an older woman stems from brief mention in another PCSO report. ► I question Tina as motive for the murder not because it takes away from any other motives, but that I simply don't buy it or the bullshit surrounding either the report or Loon's self-serving lies. That's the sole sources and, really, the only time Loon has strayed from the Loonibi- which she helped write with the other murderers- is when Bo and Marty left town, so she then decided to tweak or add onto those lies in order to throw Bo, Marty, and others under the bus. Loon is 100% about "self-preservation, F everyone else!"

Edited to add:

CETA appears to be the educational program that I'm interested in hearing about. Note this confirms the ed program AND contradicts the barmaid rumor. Not to preclude Sue working there, particularly under the table, but I think it would be a highly visible way to risk losing benefits.

[Sue] Sharp's only known source of income came from her position as a CETA worker, wherein she was paid to attend school, the Feather River Community College, where she was to learn a business trade. She was described as being a good student who studied hard and obtained good grades but who was also a loner and who did not participate in social gatherings such as coffee breaks. She had no other known source of income other than a $250 a month allotment check from the US Navy via her husband.

Comprehensive Employment and Training Act- whatever she earned from the CETA program, and the Navy's $250, plus other SS/welfare, appears to be the sum of Sue's income.
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Re: I have some questions about Tina

Postby kmik » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:40 am

If we separate the "facts " from the "rumors" and "speculation" in this case then you have very little to go on. There just aren't many facts available to us. Do I believe Tina was pregnant? Absolutely not. But I DO believe it is possible that she was being molested. I just can't imagine why so much speculation would surround an underdeveloped child of 12. Remember Glenna Meeks writing in her post of Marty saying (ABOUT TINA): "if there old enough to bleed-there old enough to breed"? Now I do not believe everything Glenna Meeks said but she literally challenged Marilyn to deny this happened and Marilyn did not. Really what normal decent person talks about a child in this way? And in front of company at that? To me only someone who views a child in a sexual way (probably in his sick mind Tina was asking for this). Marty's own stepdaughter left Keddie, the month before the murders, and it wasn't just because Marty was crazy (he had been crazy from the beginning).
Word could have gotten back to Marty (from Sgt.Shanks or Doug Thomas) that it was rumored he was messing with Tina (and I don't believe it was all over town). Marilyn could have gone over to confront Sue because Marty was so upset and it turned deadly. In the words of Dee Lake (a man who would definitely know): Somebody got stupid- did something stupid- that's usually what happens."
We have as many facts to support this theory as we do the "drug" angle, the "Sue" angle, the "baby adoption" angle, or any other "angle" you could think of.
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Re: I have some questions about Tina

Postby dmac » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:29 pm

"so much speculation"? Where? Other than the tiny turds already mentioned (and don't forget Loon saying "Marty called Tina a whore and Johnny a punk") from those involved, all the spec is on the web. And if you think the ridiculously scant info on Tina's pregnancy allegations comes remotely close to the abundant info leading down several other alleys of investigation, then we definitely have different standards. I don't want to further belabor the point, so let's stop beating this dead horse: There are MANY facts in this case and, at least for the last 34 years, Tina's alleged pregnancy is not one of them. Likewise, Loon's and Mama Meeks' allegations that Marty was after Tina (if that's what you're assuming from their statements), find a better source because those two are rarely worth more than proving lies.

Also, read your last post and count the number of IFs that have to be true. Maybe this and if that's true then maybe this, and if that's true then maybe this. That's not a theory, that's trying to topple dominoes which are standing too far apart

True, this case is short on all the facts (what do you expect with rampant malfeasance?). That's why I'm very careful about avoiding the rabbit holes in this case. I've still managed to fall down a few while looking for paydirt. This is a big rabbit hole I've walked around several times, and will continue to do so unless some 'new' info comes along. Right now, it's an obvious angle of inquiry that has nothing to substantiate it, and I don't see how any hours spent on it will produce facts out of thin air. I prefer to spend my time researching angles that actually stand a chance of producing results.
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Re: I have some questions about Tina

Postby kmik » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:36 pm

If you actually read my post then certainly you read that I said I do not believe Tina was pregnant. Neither Mama Meeks nor Marilyn were involved anywhere in the statements or speculation about Tina being pregnant. As a matter of fact Mama Meeks is more than glad to distance her own kids from Tina buy posting that Tina didn't run with the "Little Pack", but that's not what Joel Lipsey and other said. Marilyn certainly doesn't approach the possibility that Marty was a pedaphile in regards to her own kids much less Tina. When the subject comes up about Tina, she suddenly thinks Bo Boubede might have been a molestor. When she reveals Casey's wife told her that Casey had been abused when younger she said she had racked her brain wondering who it could have been. So no information concerning Tina being pregnant or molested, by Marty, came from them. The quote that Glenna Meeks gave that Marty said about Tina was because she was explaining how Marty had no respect for women and didn't like Sue or Tina and was capable of being the killer from the way he had talked about Tina.

And to think that Marty took Tina away from Cabin 28 to throw suspicion off of them, while leaving 3 kids alive, is crazy. His own stepson, whose life was spared, was telling on Marty the very next day.

And I don't feel like I am beating a dead horse because the question was asked about Tina. I've already said that I respect your opinion DMAC and do not want to argue with you. So you or anyone else can ignore anything that I write about Tina if you don't want to read it.
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Re: I have some questions about Tina

Postby dmac » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:29 pm

Yes, I read your post, and I tried again to politely explain why both the pregnancy AND molestation theories simply have no legs. The molestation angle certainly has merit as a plausibility, but no legs.

I don't have the answers and may be way off -but I get tired of being told that there are no facts to support any of this. The crime scene begs the question : "Why Take Tina"?

There are no facts to support molestation as a reason Tina was removed. NONE. ZERO. Unless you can produce them, it's a rabbit hole as big as Texas. Once again, I'll explain: I do think Tina's history AND Sue's lack of parenting put Tina at incredible risk. I do believe there is a logical reason for concern that molestation may have been ongoing, but that's because of Joel Lipsey being in contact with Tina. Joel had nothing to do with the murders, and until information comes along to support molestation as a cause for the crime OR staging, it's a rabbit hole, not a supportable theory.
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Re: I have some questions about Tina

Postby kmik » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:52 pm

I agree that Joel Lipsey had nothing to do with the murders. I hope that you know I do understand your desire for facts and not a bunch of speculation misleading the truth, which is not my intention. But I stand by my theory though my mind is still open - which is why I'm still reading. I was not in Cabin28 that night so I can't say anything for sure.
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Re: I have some questions about Tina

Postby sorrytointerrupt » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:44 pm

Chichibcc wrote:
sorrytointerrupt wrote:What I've never seen is the name of the person that actually assaulted Tina? Why not? Did I miss it? Is it because he/she never was prosecuted for the potential crimes regarding Tina? I'd like to know who he/she was and if there was ever a prosecution later for a different crime then it should be public information to share the name of a known pedophile that also had interactions with Tina.


Here is the official report on that incident, with the perpetrator's name included, in this thread: http://keddie28.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=783&p=14204&hilit=french#p14204


Hey Chichibcc, I don't have enough posts yet to view the files you sent but I'm thinking you corrected me on a basic misunderstanding. Tina's only substantiated abuse came from Daniel French (thanks for the name!) and occurred before she arrived in Keddie and that the rest was either under investigation and considered a possibility either before or after her death. Is that accurate? I still unfortunately believe she was still being molested but distinguishing between what was proved and what wasn't is a good start. And eek- from the work I do, I certainly know how many sexual predators live in every neighborhood but I never quite get past the eek factor that it always creeps me out.

Thanks, Brad
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Re: I have some questions about Tina

Postby sorrytointerrupt » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:36 pm

Hey folks,

Still learning the site, hope this goes out to KMIK, Chichibcc and DMAC and everyone else that responded. I certainly know that all and each of you will be able to read this post in the thread.

I believe enough of Marty's confession that he killed Sue and Tina. (maybe more) And like so many confessions, he might have been lying as to why.

I won't change my mind that Tina's body not being found with the rest of the family is significant for some reason, but I also won't discount the idea that she just woke up, wandered into the hall and then ran out the back door into the woods when she saw what was happening and her assailants knew enough about her favorite shoe box to bring it with them when they went after her to try to entice her. Whether Marty had impregnated her? Whether she was being molested by others? How long she stayed alive after the 12th? I don't know!

I'd like to ask a completely different question at this point? Where was Casey (Justin's little brother) the night of the 12th? Was he at home? Even though Justin was sleeping over at the Sharps?, there's this persistent story that Marilyn asked Sue to come out with her, Bo and Marty to the bar? This story has always hit me as off for many reasons, but recently I started to wonder if the only reason this story ever got introduced into the lexicon of conversation was as a cover for Marilyn/Loon to be able to explain if anyone happened to see her at Sue's door that night? Potentially arguing about something else? Please confirm where Casey was for me? And I know I read that Don Doris went to the Backdoor Bar that night, did he ever provide testimony regarding how long he was there and if he saw Bo, Marty and Marilyn there or not or the argument about music or them leave, etc.

Thanks, Brad
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Re: I have some questions about Tina

Postby dmac » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:13 am

Casey isn't mentioned too much on the forum (primarily because he has so little to do with the events, and info on him is scant). Fortunately, kmik initiated this thread just a few weeks ago re: Casey, but it doesn't yet hold much info, so here's the basics:

Casey was The Favorite Child. Parents almost always say they don't play 'favorites', but anyone with their head out of the sand & eyes open knows that's a lie. Casey was The One, and Justin was the Problem Child. Loon's daughter was also in limbo, bouncing from household to household, never 'home'. Casey was closer to Greg's and Rick's ages, and is also believed to be the Smartt brother the Sharp boys played with most often. Justin was bounced around between parents, arriving in Keddie from his bio-dad's home in Colorado or wherever. From multiple sources, he was known to at least occasionally be a bully or troublemaker. I believe in his own account of Saturday, he and the other boys were playing "ditch" on Casey, the rather ugly game of choosing one person to exclude from the group, and finding a way to 'ditch' them: run away and meet up elsewhere without Casey, leaving him wondering why he was left out, disliked. Here's a brief bit from Marty during the Crimley Crock-o'Shite:

    "[Justin]'s very hyper. You know, won't, hard to keep settled down. Uh, picks on his little brother. Almost like he was enjoying it, you know. Uh, hurting his little brother, picking on him, uh, periods of refusing to eat, uh. You know. "

I've not seen any other info on sleepover habits of either Smartt boys or Greg and Rick, but the main Q is why Justin slept at 28, not Casey. Or why not both boys? That's very suspect. We don't know for certain Casey slept at 26 that night, other than all three Loonibiars say Casey was home Sunday morning when Justin 'woke them with news of the murders' (I believe Bo only mentioned Casey was there when Justin was demonstrating how to murder). That means Casey was left home, alone, while the killers went to the bar.

As for Loon stopping by 28 to ask Sue, I've read both the Crimley interviews again as a refresher (my memory is rapidly deteriorating), and NEITHER of them mention stopping at 28, much less Loon (or anyone else) asking Sue to join them at the bar. I've long believed that angle of the Loonibi is BS, and it's now apparent it's purely an addition by Loon after Bo and Marty fled. It seems every shred of info we have about Loon stopping by comes directly from Loon and NOBODY ELSE. The story is to protect herself (I was in the cabin that night, I saw stuff, maybe someone saw me but I don't recall seeing the kids, they musta been way zonked out!) and to throw Marty and Bo further under the bus (boy, they sure were pissed off at Sue! How dare she turn them down!).

I know of the missing toolbox, which makes sense considering it's use in the murders. The hammer came from the toolbox, and probably some wire cutters (the wire was used as staging AFTER the murders) and other tools, and the killers probably decided to take it with them because of the amount of evidence. Hell, it may even have been covered with blood. It's hard to remove blood from unfinished wood. I also believe LE is completely full of BS about Tina in love with a box. The sheriff and DOJ seem to be the ones transposing Tina's fixation on a box onto the toolbox. LE wanted to dismiss the importance of the missing toolbox by saying not only it was Tina's fixation, but it's proof she was alive, left willingly, and is probably complicit in the murders. That was the sheriff's initial tack. Loon is the only other person I know of to talk about the box, and she described it as a diorama, a school project. Do you see a 12 y/o special ed kid being required to do a diorama? I call "BULLSHIT" once again. If Tina was required to do a diorama, where was Rick's diorama? Despite the age difference, Tina was held back and shared the same regular teacher half the day, and Lipsey was her SE teacher the other half. Where was Rick's diorama? I call "DOUBLE BULLSHIT" on the box fixation.

It was not Dan Doriss (Dana's step-dad) but Don Davis (Sue's brother) that was at the bar. Lots of talk about him on this forum, very little information on him in documents. What's known about his night at the bar is on the Persons of Note document. This entry, inexplicably, does NOT include his time upstairs at the restaurant:

    DAVIS, DONALD (SUE'S BROTHER)
    In bar 4/11/81 @2030 - 2345, no lights at Sharp's when he left, background info on Sue, didn't feel Tina involved, Jim Sharp (Ex - husband) Type O Neg blood, Sue friends w/ Meeks, ID of pink pants suit, doesn't know wht/grn Blazer or who Sue argued with <CRIM/SHANKS/ SHAVER>

Sheila refused to talk about him, full stop. He spent the evening dining at the upstairs restaurant and then in the bar, and drove by Sue's after but didn't stop by. He also took in the surviving kids until they were shipped off to Oregon, and his crowded trailer (near the Meeks home) is also where Crimley faked debriefing of Greg.
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Re: I have some questions about Tina

Postby sorrytointerrupt » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:58 pm

Thanks folks for the feedback and corrections. I have some reading to do before I respond :)

Thanks, Brad
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Re: I have some questions about Tina

Postby Chichibcc » Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:02 am

sorrytointerrupt wrote:Hey Chichibcc, I don't have enough posts yet to view the files you sent but I'm thinking you corrected me on a basic misunderstanding. Tina's Tina's only substantiated abuse came from Daniel French (thanks for the name!) and occurred before she arrived in Keddie and that the rest was either under investigation and considered a possibility either before or after her death. Is that accurate?


Yes, that's correct.
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