Justin

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Justin

Postby sorrytointerrupt » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:03 pm

Hello everyone,

This might be a huge error in the way I'm introducing this topic, especially since it's just 2 days before a chat conversation I unfortunately won't be able to join due to work functions I need to attend.

Anyway, here I go. I believe most people reading this accept that Marty was one of the killers. He did confess after all and even if he didn't there were huge red flag arrows pointed to him since day one.

If most of us believe that, then we are discussing the whys and who else was involved and why it wasn't solved, etc. Right?

I'd like to throw this topic of conversation out there and see where it goes. Regardless of what Marty stated as to cause, what if his confession was honest but his motives and timeframe were not?

What changes in our understanding of this case and these murders if it was actually Justin that was having a sexual relationship with Tina? (maybe Marty too, but just not the catalyst that night. )

Sue discovers that Justin is fooling around with her already abused 12 year old daughter and calls Marilyn frantic and upset. Was it normal for Justin to sleep over? Was he close friends with either Greg or Rick before the 12th? Was this his first sleepover there? Was he really sleeping over to spend time with Greg and Rick? Or just to be able to spend some time with Tina? We don't know this type of stuff because Sheila has always been the spokesperson for the family. With all due respect to Sheila, she's the only person in the family we accept wasn't there that night! Greg and Rick were!!! I find it hard to fathom they slept through this particular night and so I would love for them to come forward and share what they remember. I understand it might be convoluted, but I know it would be helpful.

If Justin and Tina were fooling around?
Wouldn't that go a long way to explain how squirrelly, and inconsistent Justin has been over the years? Wouldn't that explain why his first thoughts and concerns were about Tina when the police arrived? Wouldn't the idea that Tina might be being held elsewhere (alive or dead) go a long way to explaining how he went from forthcoming to confused and silent in a matter of hours? Wouldn't that explain why his "hypnotized" testimony still carries more validity for most of us than his eyewitness testimony does?

Wouldn't this give a better reason for Marilyn to show up at Sue's door that night? And then still go to the bar that night afterwards to "plan" with Bo and Marty their response and how to get back at Sue who would have been viewed as messing Justin's future. Then have many drinks and get very worked up about what a "bitch" Sue was and that she needed to be taught the lesson that she wasn't better than them.

When Marty shares in letters later what he did for Marilyn/Loon. I never bought that he would kill Sue for saying Marilyn should leave Marty. Christ, any woman with an IQ over 80 would have been giving Marilyn the same advice!!! Her daughter moved to a different state because of him! Marty knew all this!! I believe he heard this daily from every person in Marilyn's life!! So the idea that another woman that at best was a remote acquaintance of his wife stating he was bad news was a reason to kill her? Sorry, I don't buy it.

But once the decision that she needed to be killed or at least "taught a lesson" had been made, I think Marty's hatred of women did play a role in the actual murder because Sue's pantie's were found in her mouth and the bindings went through her legs. Certainly a pose for sexual degradation.

And Marty's letters to Marilyn where he states how much he did for her? Don't they make more sense if he was referring to protecting her kid rather than killing a relatively stranger to try get her back romantically ? He's actually threatening Marilyn at the same time in these letters.

I have more questions and thoughts but I need to go to bed for the night in order to be cognizant for a Strategic Planning Day tomorrow.

Thanks, Brad
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Re: Justin

Postby dmac » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:34 am

The "Justin was after Tina" theory is old hat, and I won't speak to it due to it's level of exponential conjecture (I'll coin this kind of spec-on-spec-on-spec as 'The Non-Toppling Domino Effect'), and I've already explained my feelings on such explorations probably a dozen times over the past few years (most recently yesterday), but I will throw in what I know for the benefit of the forum:

►Justin was said to have a crush on Tina, but that comes from the web; I have no source, no guess as to veracity or when the rumor first appeared.

► According to all sources and timelines, Justin saw very little of Tina that day, and only in passing. Tina saw very little of 28. Once the sleepover had begun, apart from cleaning dishes, Tina spent the evening watching TV at 27, then came home and went straight to bed. The next time she was awake was when the killers entered the bedroom.

► I inadvertently answered a lot of Qs about sleepovers and patterns already, found here. This includes the lies about Loon knocking on Sue's door.

► The written / transcribed accounts by Justin to LE of the actual murders are intentional bullshit to placate LE, not meant to be factual. He did not see the murders from the crack in the bedroom door (physically impossible), he did not see Tina run out the back door, and his accounts of telling cops "Look for Tina down by the river" don't come from Justin. Instead, the source of that claim is- you guessed it- LOON! One of the killers makes that assertion. Justin's account of the two killers, used by Embrey for those ridiculously crude, cartoon-like facial composites? That's Justin mumbling "yup" to every suggestion made. There's so little info coming from Justin, you can tell he'd already had enough harassment and threats. Justin saw a bunch of it because he was awake and everyone knew he and the boys were in that room and awake.

► Alive or dead, Tina was definitely held elsewhere until at least noon on Sunday, when the killers are seen leaving Keddie from cabin 26 to dump her at Camp Eighteen. She was not held under the floorboards of the Playhouse, all of those stories come from liars as it was, and still is, physically impossible to pull up floorboards in that structure.

► Justin's "hypnoliez" are equally ridiculous (conducted by Sylvester the Magician Sheriff, utilizing the brand-new hypno-glasses he bought out of a Sad Sack magazine?!), other than I think it's the source of him seeing the pocket knife. A bloody pocket knife was recovered, along with other bloodied evidence, from the trash can by the dorm / Gen Store. What goes the furthest towards explaining his erratic stories is the threats and harassment he received from his abusive mother, abusive father, other killers, and at the hands of LE, who were actively shutting down all valid trajectories of inquiry.

► The killers brought most of the weapons/restraints to the crime scene. That includes the rifle, multiple rolls of medical tape of varying widths, at least one knife, another hammer, etc. Any of these things together comprise a Kill Kit. Muffled screams coming from the rear of 28 were heard at 1:15 AM, which lines up with the killers attacking when leaving the bar the first time; Marty and Bo change, return to the bar to re-establish alibis, then sneak back to 28. This almost certainly means the killers either had tape, knives, etc on their persons at the bar, or planted them near 28 to avoid being seen going home and returning to 28. This means they went to the bar with a felonious attack (if not murder) at 28 already planned.

► In the Post-Murder Love / Hate Letters to Loon (yes, he threatens her because he loves her so- that's the core of their relationship, and it seems to have gone both ways), he also said "I've paid the price for your love & now that I've Bought it with Four peoples lives, you tell me we are Through. Great! What else do you want?" Marty had five kids, not four. He'd just murdered four people, though: "now that I've bought it with four lives"? Sounds like a recent purchase, not his own five kids who he'd abandoned years prior.
Marilyn is a sociopath, who spent decades chewing up men and spitting them out, screwing anything that moved, and blaming all of her troubles on- you guessed it- the men. Plus, anyone may have been giving Loon such advice, but probably not those in Keddie. It's a hugely dangerous assumption to think Loon's or Marty's IQ is over 80, even if their neighbors' were!

► I don't know about Loon's hatred, but Marty certainly hated his alcoholic mother, wanted to murder his brother, and bomb his dad's & step-mom's house. Bo hated his alcoholic mother, and was raised by mafia scum. He also hated his alcoholic whore of a wife, who mysteriously ended up missing and murdered (along with her bf) in the 90s. Both of them seemed to have an elephant's stomach filled with hatred towards moms/wives/women. Again, see my reply in the post, as it says more. And here. The pose Sue was left in is about as degrading as they come, and it was the coup de grâce of the staging. There's absolutely no way the killers would undo such handiwork, such a clear statement, by moving Sue out of that humiliating pose, then covering her. No. Damned. Way.
Rigor was so set by the time she was moved and covered, her left leg appeared to be floating in midair. And she was staged AFTER Dana had been staged: He was dead long enough for livor mortis to set, proving his corpse was moved long after death, turned face-down with the head on the cushion, then his head smashed in with the table leg, the killer positioned where Johnny's corpse was later placed. Hence, Sue was explicitly staged last and left in that position long enough for rigor to set so well. Rigor had not substantially set in when she was staged, but it certainly had by the time someone moved and covered her.
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Re: Justin

Postby sorrytointerrupt » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:13 pm

Hey Dmac,

Thanks for taking the time to write out such a thorough response. I have some clarifying questions about each arrow. I'm wondering if there's a way that I can insert my questions within your existing message to me or do I need to "quote" each one individually and answer and ask about each topic that way?

Thanks, Brad
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Re: Justin

Postby justice17 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:05 am

Justin and the Sheriff Page 21 of 22

Question- Why did Doug Thompson say while you were sleeping in the car? Am I missing something...


Doug: Did you hear a noise at all while you were sleeping in the car? While you were asleep did you hear a car?


I know that there was a rumor, I think Richard Meeks said that there was blood found on Sues car? Did Justin walk through the aftermath, go to Sues side so he could "try to patch her up"? He must have been terrified. Most kids would run home straight to their Mother...unless it was your Step-Father that did it. Maybe finding a place to hide would be the best choice?

Also Interesting:
Doug: How old was the man having a fight with John
Justin: 32
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Re: Justin

Postby dmac » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:19 pm

This was Justin's "dream" interview. I think DT was simply trying to get Justin to place the killers in a car at the scene, and screwed up his phrasing of the Q on the first attempt.
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Re: Justin

Postby justice17 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:21 pm

Also interesting was Justin's response to the question:
How old was the man fighting with John?
Justin:32
(Mardes exact age in 1981)

NEVERMIND ----I found where this was already brought up. Thanks!

Re : "Dream" Hypnotism Transcript with Justin, Dr. Dash, and
Postby dmac » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:56 pm
Also, Justin told many deliberate half-truths in his responses in the interviews we have transcripts to. Appearance, clothing, age of the perps, how things went down. Look closely at the ages, for instance, when he made up a crap age for the second perp, but asked about the first?

Doug: Ok. How old was that man that was having a fight with John? How old was he?

Justin: 32.

Nailed Marty's age. Oh, and April 11 is one of two birth dates we have found for Marty, from separate online resources that have nothing to do with this case. Motive? Birthday present to Marty.
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