So why Camp 18?

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby Ausgirl » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:01 pm

dmac - it's not at all unheard of for killers to move bodies from one location to the next. Gary Ridgeway moved body parts to Oregon to throw off investigators, for one example.

It was noted at the time how peculiar the placement of Tina's skull was - as though somebody wanted it found. Note too the date of discovery - only 11 days after the anniversary of the murders. Coincidence? Maybe. But that somebody called in to correct the fact that the body was Tina's and not a boy's, also suggests that perhaps the killer was particularly interested in Tina being discovered and identified at that time.

Not saying the animal dispersion theory has no merit, but it's not the only theory that holds up to scrutiny.

What if Tina was already skeletonised when moved? There ought to have been, even in '84, some sort of mineral test to determine whether different soils/conditions applied to her bones. Not to be icky? But there if there was tissue in her skull, enough to leave dried fragments three years later, it seems to me that she wasn't out in the open for all of that time.

KK, you are asking some Very Good Questions. Thanks for them.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:33 am

An interesting little know fact is that from 1980 to I believe 1982 the California Department of Forestry was investigating a large number of arson fires in Northern California. During the summer they went so far as set up road blocks whenever a fire occured at any cross roads surrounding the fire and stopped people taking down names and license numbers.

At the same time they set up camera's to take pictures of vehicles on some major highways. I don't know that during the investigation they were taken down during off season as fires did break out in the winter since the suspect was contracting fire fighting equipment to CDF and during drought years things were pretty dry. I believe 81 and 82 were drought years with the lake levels low.

I mention this because I believe Garbo Gap had a camera at the firestation since it could easily be serviced. I know there were arson fires outside of Quincy in the fall of 1980 as I was on them.

I wonder what happened to those records. I'm not sure who you could contact to see if there was a camera there and if the pictures were kept. All my Forestry contacts retired years ago and those I contacted we're not involved at the time and didn't know who I could talk to about it. If the records still exisited it would be interesting to check April 12th to see if the car went down canyon past Garbo though.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby dmac » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:21 pm

Aus- I don't consider the Green River Killer case as a reputable example. The investigation was corrupted in 84, and I believe a lot of the cases attributed to Ridgeway- a mental midget- are meant as a way for LE to close a shitload of murders. Besids, the OR dumpings are, at any rate, attributed to a proficient serial killer. I'd need a better example than Ridgeway. Also, I think those that noted Tina's skull placement were the limpdick pigs who also wanted to pawn the case off as "ancient Native American" so their books were clean and paperwork nonexistent. Sorry, the last thing in the world I'm willing to do is take their word on anything- and same goes for the bottle collector-slash-professional body finder. We also have differing dates on when the body was found. When it was first posted, I asked and Josh verified that some documents clearly state Tina's discovery was on April 11, 1984. I won't dispute that somebody was helping LE find and ID Tina, I just don't believe anybody dug her up after some time then moved her to Camp Eighteen and disposed of her again in an entirely different manner. It simply doesn't add up, and too many factors weigh against it.

I have two addresses for Marty- in Chico and Grass Valley. Both of these addresses put him equidistant with Dee Lake from the mid-point, Camp Eighteen. That's why I wanna know if Marty was using those addresses in 1984. To have two of the guys from that carload of numnuts living so close together at a time when phone calls were made and Tina was found at the midpoint between two scum kinda makes a penny or two drop, doesn't it?

Another oddity about the finding of Tina, and I'll repeat it until it gets traction: Crim was theoretically only handling certain aspects of the case- the overflow, as it were, that PCSD specifically asked them to come in and work.

Why, oh mighty why, is Dirty Mob Pig Prince Albert Crim on the scene filing reports on the discovery of Tina weeks before it's confirmed that it's A> not Native American B> not a boy and C> IS TINA SHARP?

This whole case is corruption and lies.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:34 am

Did you notice the people standing in the clearing in photo 28? The sedan must have jut driven by and they should know who was in the car. I wonder if the Seabolts walked down from the wood pile/work shop to see the helicopter more clearly. Since it looks like a man and a woman or a large man standing there.

It is an interesting set of pictures. They obviously flew around cabin 28 but really didn't get a good picture of it. I wonder why they only took six pictures?

Interesting to me is the lack of cops, civilians, and movement. The only two people I see are the two in the clearing in picture 28. I might have to revise my thoughts on how Tina's body was removed. From how deserted the place looks they could have carried her body down the road and put her in the back of the green car and just driven out.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:40 am

Text below copied from http://www.laportecabins.com/driving-directions.asp

"La Porte is one mile above sea level and lies in the Sierra Nevada Mountain Snow belt. In the summer it is a secluded cool retreat from the Sacramento Valley heat. In the winter it is a winter wonderland of snow activities only 60 miles from Yuba City. Once snow has fallen the road from Quincy to La Porte is closed and normally opens by Memorial Day Weekend. It snows anytime from Halloween on thru the end of May. Please check weather conditions. 5 to 7 months of the year La Porte is only accessed from the south. After snow falls La Porte is the END of the road . The only winter way to Quincy is via skis or snowmobile!! Between Clipper Mills and Strawberry Valley is the Historic Sopher Wheeler Lumber Company on the left. It is a well marked group of large metal structures and a two story office building. This area is where cell phones normally operate and likely the last dependable wireless service you will find. Directly after Sopher Wheeler Company are two of the sharpest and poorly banked turns on the La Porte Road. La Porte is twenty minutes ahead. La Porte has a Fire Department, general store, gas pumps, restaurant, deli, Saloon and rental units. There is no diesel fuel in La Porte"

I also followed the route on Topo and it does stay pretty high. Doesn't mean it wasn't a dry year but I hate to keep arguing over whether or not it was open. The Plumas County Road department and the USFS should both have logs someplace in a dusty file cabinet that says the date the road opened that year. They do keep track of stuff like that.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:59 am

Perhaps this thread needs to be renamed from Why Camp 18 to why Tina at Camp 18. The more I obsess on this the more I think they go together.

I can think of a few reasons and would like to leave out the one I see mostly which is to throw the police off, because that's not why Tina would taken to Camp 18 but why a body would be taken to Camp 18.

Again to me there has to be a reason she was taken.

Here's a few I thought of:

A.She was the smallest person there, easiest to carry.

B.Her body contained evidence
1.Sperm
2.Baby
3.Bullet
4.Bite Marks
5.Stab wounds different from the others

C.She was coveted by one of the killers who wanted control over her remains

D.She was taken for serial killers MO
1.Blunt force trama to the head
2.Buried in a shallow grave,(most likely in an old dump site)

E.She was taken alive because they were'n't done with her.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby Mamma_C » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:04 pm

Here is map from the Plumas County Public works showing which roads they close for the winter. La Porte is County Road 511 on the map.

In late April 2009 I tried to take La Porte as an alternative to hwy 70. About 15 miles from Quincy there is a gate that crosses the road to close it off. There was no snow on the ground at the time but the gate was closed with a sign that the route was closed for winter. I think they usually try to get all the roads open in time for Memorial Day weekend. I can't say what the county policy was back in '81, but the winter closures seem to depend not on the current weather/road conditions, but on when the county wants the roads open.

Image

Link for the county web site:
http://www.countyofplumas.com/index.aspx?nid=197

Hopefully this was a little bit helpful...
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby not sure » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:58 pm

Okay, so here's my thing...Bottle collector and said officers of law found remains at Camp 18 April 21st or earlier, depending on which report you're looking at, of 1984. How did they get there if it was all closed off?
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby bliss » Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:21 pm

my opinion as to why camp eighteen is pretty simple:
if they told the police they had driven to Reno, it would make sense to
drive the opposite direction putting about the same mileage on the car
[just in case they were able to check how far the car had been driven that day]
I.M.O. as a criminal in the act, thats a good possibilty why that are was chosen. If they had disposed of her body towards Reno, it would have been
easier to find her sooner, as I assume, someone went looking along that route for her.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:49 am

When starting this thread I hadn't realized that Kathy Howards body was found near La Porte. When I read Yuba County I was thinking Kathy was found in Yuba City.

I posted this in another thread but it's more relevant here. The statistical probability that two victims found near La Porte with blunt force trauma plus stab wounds,(given the low population density, remote location, low murder rates in rural area's)..... not being related would be very low. Even the crimes happening 10 years apart wouldn't change the odds that much. I mean how many bodies turn of up in Near La Porte, and how many of those have similar wounds and are young girls?

I'm not saying Keddie Murders and Kathy Howards murder were committed by the same person but I believe it might be a factor into why Tina was taken to Camp 18. Perhaps the killers thought they were leaving her near where Kathy's body was found. That area is a mish mash of logging roads and trails.

Even ten miles apart in an isolated area like that makes me wonder if perhaps the killers did wish to confuse the police by placing her body near where another girl who went missing from Quincy's body was placed.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby not sure » Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:58 pm

KK, I'm glad you picked up on this too. Kathy's body was found just over the rise from Tina's, almost perpendicular to. I'm thinking the perps were very familiar with the Sly Creek and/or Lost Creek areas. Those were very popular camping/fishing areas when I was growing up. Doesn't need to be a hunter we're looking for. And Kathy's murder was similar.

Anyone on the board familiar with these areas? What was the terrain like? Was it isolated? Or were there houses and such?

I'm also still VERY CURIOUS if, when, who and where the bottle collector found another body????? Did he find Kathy? If not, who found Kathy?
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby bigsis » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:12 pm

I missed this post in all the reading I've done over the past few months. In the 1970's we camped quite a bit in the Sly Creek/Lost Creek area a few miles off LaPorte road, just out of Strawberry Valley, which is in Plumas County. It was isolated - that's why we liked it. There were no modern camp grounds, as we know them today. But there was a dam on the creek, Lost Creek Dam, built I believe in the 1930's. The little reservoir behind it was a great place to fish, and we set up our own facilities.

I remember that just across the lake there were some privately owned cabins and perhaps a camp ground, because we could see tents over there. I never figured out how to get to them.

The road in from Strawberry Valley was dirt all the way - I'm going to say 5 miles of rusty red dust - nasty stuff - but worth it to this little piece of quiet beauty. If you continued from where we camped across the dam - a very narrow winding road - there may have been another road into the above mentioned cabins/camp grounds - you would eventually come out at Feather Falls. We never saw another person or car or boat on the lake when we were there or on the road in and out - that's how isolated it was in 1975 - I remember now we were there in August 1975 when the Oroville earthquake hit.

So for the bodies of 2 girls to have been dumped in this area within a few years of each other is pretty far-fetched to be coincidence. Someone had to have known the area pretty well, in my opinion.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby racerkey » Fri May 20, 2016 4:20 am

Why Camp 18--Three sets of murdered remains on that route. Tina, Howard, and the miner's skull found at Hartmann Bar is on the same road, within approx 10-15 miles. The middle of nowhere, yet the perp(s) knew these back roads as well as I do, but had a different agenda. Yet their agenda(s) all match each other. Dumping grounds, no onlookers, no LE. THREE MURDERERS? The MV-LaPorte-Little Grass turnoff to Camp 18 and Feather Falls(town). FF had a Store, Bar, and Gas station at the time. A long backwoods road trip might include a fuel stop and snacks mid-way. Drinking, drugging and driving the back roads in THAT AREA were common to the Feather Falls people, but not the Quincy people. They had their own route. Rt 70. The bar crawl connection. In those days, before DUI-MADD, the mountain communities were lawless. The inhabitants worked the woods or welfare. The common ground was the bar-to-bar stop-offs. Murderers or not, these folks stopped at every dive on the murder-dumping route. Back Door, Maple Leaf, Belden, Scotty's, Grandview, Jarbo, Rock House, up to the Optimo, all gleaned from this site. Coke-Paradise, Crank-Oroville, Weed everywhere between. I hit every one of these myself and know the route. BTW, The Quincy-Meadow Valley- La Porte to Lumpkin FS road leads to Feather Falls, a bar, and the Gold Flake on the way back to Oroville (bars) and around on 70 to Quincy. Or Not. Oroville 70>99>5 leads to Klamath Falls. Bo had no knowledge of the backwoods area. I know the locals. They are not afraid of anyone. It is plain to me that the perps had some drinking-drugging buddy in FF or Oroville and did not just stumble over to Camp 18 from Keddie with a six-pack on the seat and a body in the back on 70. Dope=Paranoia. 70= three patrol jurisdictions on a two-lane hwy into cop-infested Oroville--Hdqtrs of THREE stinkers. CHP, BCSO, and OPD.The only knowledge of that remote backwoods road complex above FF would come from a Butte Co. local, Feather Falls or Oroville. The answer lies in work records (logging) or criminal arrests(probation). This presents the motive for the CI to BCSO. once you are in the jacket, you CI to save your "stay out of jail card". The PCSO and BCSO never venture to that remote location. Siller Bros. Logging were very busy that year around Camp 18, and the trucks went through FF every 5-10 minutes. Truckers. Itinerant loggers, choker-setters, knot-bumpers. Check the employment records and arrest records of all known "suspects". Somewhere on this site I found a reference to a Keddie POI-Weaver(Oroville-trucker-murderer-remains burier) connection. Connect any POI to Weaver and you've got a hand-off. I'll keep your secret if you keep mine. So why camp 18--Miners skull FOUND BURIED at Hartmann Bar-Tina's skull at Camp 18-both on same "unknown back roads" in the same relative area. Linked. Hartmann Bar is at intersection of back road Meadow Valley to La Porte. Turnoff onto Lumpkin Ridge rd. to Camp 18 creates a "T" intersection Hartmann bar. I logged that area. The skull of the miner and the skull of Tina are midway by logging road to Feather Falls which at that time had a gas station, store, residents, and similar boom-bust low-rent town as Keddie. Someone in this is linked to Feather Falls. Also the drug angle. Speed, Weed..and the murder of the miner and the Tina dumper are the same. No two people have the knowledge of that area, are murderers and bury skulls on the same route by coincidence. Or it is TWO, which is most likely with combined skills-knowledge. Hard to conceive of ONE guy killing miner, burying skull at Hartmann Bar, then in an unrelated murder, burying Tina's remains just down the road at another non-descript "unknown" place on the same route to Feather Falls via an "unknown" tangle of dirt logging roads. I created a profile before perusing these boards and eliminated Bo. According to Smartt timeline he never lived at Feather Falls. If a connection can be made to Ward Weaver of Oroville, another murderer-burier, you have a start. That connection may be Oregon City, OR. Weaver. Smartt.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby racerkey » Sat May 21, 2016 5:31 pm

The skull and remains were dumped and put in an easily recognizable place to Butte Co. locals to BE FOUND. This was the logic behind the call i.d.-ing the remains. It was done by the perp to create a "backfire" in fire terminology to curtail the search for the as to then unsolved mystery that to the perp playing "battleship" could have gone anywhere. The call, the tip, and the i.id. presented the "answer" to LE as to what happened to Tina curtailing(in the perps mind of being blindsided by LE tracing leads that might inadvertently lead to him(them). Smartt or Bobede were not in a position to quickly take the remains to that obscure place. Steven Howard WAS. By dumping the skull and remains and simultaneously calling in a tip and identifying it as Tina's the perp hoped to end the search.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby dmac » Sun May 22, 2016 1:03 pm

Camp Eighteen is hard to find. I knew where it was from researching it on Google Maps and Earth, and became quite conversant with the road systems and networks. When it came time to going there, those roads are not labelled nor are they mapped correctly. As much work as I'd done, I still got lost twice trying to get there.

Where Tina was found was way off the dirt road, in the wild. The location of her skull is the last place a bottle hunter would be looking for bottles in near Camp Eighteen, which is another reason I believe Pedrini's involvement is less than accidental.

C18 is remote and hard to find. I believe it was chosen as the dump spot. Too much lines up for it not to e a fix.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby racerkey » Thu May 26, 2016 12:59 am

We have seen TV shows about the “Bermuda Triangle”. We know the story. We have seen TV shows covering several “Highways of Tears”, or the “Texas Killing Fields”. What we have here is a Plumas National Forest MURDER TRIANGLE. The killer(s) had a U S Forest Service map. At that time, the Forest Service distributed a less detailed yet accurate version than a USGS topo map intended for recreation, logging, and firewood cutting permits. Campfire permits were also required. In particular, the Challenge area maps show the road networks throughout the area from La Porte to Hartmann Bar to Meadow Valley and the turn-off to Camp 18 midway. Kathy Howard's remains were placed along the Laporte-Quincy Forest Service Rd. The county lines intersect in a jagged pizza-slice configuration within that map. It would take a USGS surveyor to discern those lines. Those maps are key to the dumping grounds of Kathy Howard, Tina Sharp's remains, and the miner, Ivan Michev, who disappeared in May '84, his remains found at Hartmann Bar, and determined to be shot. Hartmann Bar is along that triangle, near the bisection of the roads, the third leg midway between Laporte and Quincy is Lumpkin Ridge Rd.,the turnoff to Feather Falls and midway there, Camp 18. The killer(s) placed these remains within Plumas National Forest boundaries. Technically, the Butte, Plumas and Yuba county lines intersect in the middle of the Plumas National Forest, but not their patrol jurisdictions. It is FEDERAL LAND. It is by a technicality, no county's POLICE jurisdiction. LAW ENFORCEMENT and investigations within Federal land of the Plumas National Forest is Federal. That would be USFS Rangers, or in some cases, Fish and Game Wardens, and FBI. Nevertheless, we have a problem bigger than Keddie. It is the Plumas National Forest Murder Road. Kathy Howard, Tina Sharp, the miner Ivan Michev found at Hartmann Bar, on the same road, and to add to the Road of Tears, Eliza Stratton, "Disappeared" Grandmother to Roger Stratton, on the same road at Meadow Valley. Those are not multiple coincidences unless we have killers running all over the place agreeing to dump their work product on the same road network, like a sick dis-assembly line. Enlarge the triangle and you have Keddie, surrounded by Plumas National Forest, and connected by the same road and the disposal-site of Tina Sharp. Eliminate Rte 70. Stick to the triangle, the Murder road, and sadly, the eventual dead-ends within the Plumas National Forest. FEDS. Three police jurisdictions getting together for a meet in the middle of Federal land is a stretch. Murder, kidnap, and human murder victims remains disposal on Federal Lands is FBI. What is REALLY going on?
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby Sheepish » Thu May 26, 2016 8:15 am

As a caveat to the current line of thinking about Camp18's remote access roads; This is a small mountain town/area, its not uncommon for people with nothin' better to do to just drive/wander around. I don't think knowledge of them would be limited to people in LE or with specialized occupations like forrest services. I've spent my share of time in areas like this (but not this specific area) and still use trails and service roads I discovered decades ago when I go back. Its entirely possible that people in the area know those roads despite their remoteness and exclusion from maps.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby dmac » Thu May 26, 2016 9:45 am

While we were on our trip to C18, there were several cars going by in each direction. Once we'd arrived, no cars were around that area, but a white 4x4 was still parked half a mile back down the road when we left- smoking pot when we went by the first time.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby joe_mcplumber » Thu May 26, 2016 1:56 pm

Ditto what Sheepish ^said. When i first moved to Plumas i was fascinated by the network of FS roads and how you could get just about anywhere without using the highways. E.g. you can go from Quincy to Twain on the west side of the Feather, you can drive straight over the mountain to Taylorsville and from there to Susanville. There was even a back way to Indian Falls from Keddie but i don't know if the bridge is still there. Anyhow it was a popular pastime and incidentally to hunt firewood and fishing holes. It wouldn't surprise me if many locals knew "Camp 18" by name and could get there drunk, in the dark.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby azucena » Tue May 31, 2016 4:36 pm

My only issue with Camp 18 is that there are ( as mentioned ) numerous FS and other roads all over Plumas National Forest that would have been far more accessible and less distance than the trip to Camp 18. Many locals around here would have been familiar with many of these roads. Only someone with real local or other knowledge would have known about Camp 18. I do not see either Bo or Marty having this kind of knowledge. But, clearly,someone did, who was very familiar with Camp 18.
The trip there by either the La Porte or Meadow Valley roads would have taken some real time. In many years the Meadow Valley road is not even open until May due to snow as it goes up over Bucks lake at elevations over 5000 feet. Back then it was a windy dirt road, not maintained and a trip could take hours even in good conditions. Perhaps Tina was taken down the Canyon, and held somewhere on the Oroville side before being taken to Camp 18 .

There is a reason Camp 18 was chosen.
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