Some Thoughts

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Some Thoughts

Postby islander » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:40 am

Im new here, first post in fact. I came across this site and in fact the murders themselves on the jack the ripper forum. These murders were listed as someones top 10 of strange killings. Ive become interested in them because so much of it doesnt make a bit of sense. I dont pretend to be an expert i have no insider info never been to the town in question. But some things bug me a lot about these killings.

1. Time. in order to kill 3 ppl and kidnap a 4th how much time did the killers take ? Seems to me this couldnt have been done quickly. The place was ripped apart either before/during or after the killings. Whoever did this felt comfortable enough with the area not to worry about how much time they were taking. This indicates someone local who knows the area or knows the people around the cabin where the murders occurred.

2. Sound. What got me about these killings was supposedly no one heard anything. At. All. How is this possible ? I cant believe that not one single person heard anything at all. This wasnt a murder with a gun and silencer. This was probably one of the most sadistic ways to kill a person (my apologies to family members/friends who visit this site. I do not mean to be disrespectful to your loved ones) How is it possible to do this all silently. How do you stab walls/people and rip apart the inside of a cabin with such force - silently. I dont believe its possible and this is what draws me to the murders the most. Someone heard something and isnt talking for whatever reason. Had it been me/my family there that night i would have been screaming my head off if for no other reason than the pain of the wounds. Ive seen pictures those cabins are close together. I dont understand how no one heard anything.

3. Tina. I dont know if she was the target or not. I think she is the key. Why was she taken ? Find out the reason why and you find the killers. To my thinking she had to know who they were. I dont know if she was really asleep as some claim or taken earlier as some claim. Im fairly positive she knew who the killers were simply because of the amount of time it took to commit these crimes and the stealth in which they were carried out. This very sadly sealed her fate. If it were a random sex crime why so much violence ? Simply tie up the family take the girl done. It had to be someone they all knew. Someone who could get in the door to the cabin without major screaming taking place. Even 3 or 4 ppl doing this would need some time to get everyone subdued. Seems to me that the family knew who it was and opened the door willingly. From there all hell broke lose for whatever reason. Tina is the key one way or another.

4. Has anyone considered the cops were less than innocent in this ? I live in and grew up in a small town. Where I live is drug grower central. We have a joke here that every 2nd house is a grow show. Only its not really a joke its too true. I know how cops work and more often than not theyre as bad or worse than the criminals. Rumors of drugs are in this. I know local cops are more than willing to dip their hands into the cookie jar and help themselves to some profits from the trade. I doubt your area is all that much different. This could be a prime reason for silence. Cant go to the cops when the cops are part of it if for no other reason than they were happily looking the other way at someones drug dealing. So much of this case seems to have been mishandled in a way that seems deliberate. Basic policing seems to have been thrown out the window. Crime scenes not secured, leads not followed. Why ? Keddie is/was a small town. I know from my own area that few things happen without someone outside knowing something. People talk when they shouldnt, people see things they shouldnt. What disturbs me a great deal is the silence of this. People hint at things but dont ever disclose all they know. Like throwing scraps to dogs a small piece at a time. Why is it that people dont talk ? Being a closed town where people keep to themselves only goes so far. Children were brutally murdered after all. This isnt a case of husband finds wife in bed with lover and goes banana's. Something is still preventing the people who know from coming forward. Something threatens them to this day.

5. Theories seem to abound. What is real and provable though ? Taking Tina doesnt make a lot of sense. Seems to me that taking her increases the risk of being caught. The killers didnt think so. They seemed to think taking her was a safer option than leaving her behind. This indicates to me theyre local. Why take her keep her alive for 6 months then murder her (again dumping the body somewhere relitively close by again indicating local. She was dumped somewhere the killers felt safe in taking a body/girl who was being actively sought after. A random killer passing through isnt going to come back to the same general area to dump a body) ? That part doesnt make sense. *IF* it was a drug rip off as some people think was she taken to pay a drug debt ? as much as i dont want to think of it, it wouldnt be the first time someones daughter had to work off someones elses drug bill. Her age seems a bit young for that though especially given the year this happened and the area it happened in. So she is the anomaly. Taking her is dangerous, leaving her behind was obviously more so to the killers, or taking her was providing something of value to them.

My heart goes out to the family. I would like to see this case solved even if the persons responsible for it have died. They need and deserve closure and the people who were murdered deserve to have their killers named. All of the dead deserve some peace in all this. No matter the reasons for the crimes.

Im not from the US so i dont know so well how your justice system works. Has any of the family contacted the FBI for instance and asked to reopen the investigation with outside investigators ? Is that even a possibility ? Seems the local cops arent in a hurry to solve it.

This case haunts me quite a bit. Ive read through this board and some others. Too many questions. Seems the answer is staring us right in the face if we have but the wit to see it. I get the feeling those murdered are begging us to find their killers. It breaks my heart truly. Innocent lives taken and people are silent on the reasons why, and who did it. Its not right. They deserve justice.
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Postby Zenobia » Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:33 am

Excellent post. You hit on three things that always bothered me. Why were the screams of the victims never heard? The large amount of time involved in the crime. The taking of Tina and the fact three of the boys were left alive. SOMEONE in Quincy/Keddie must know what happened.
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Postby islander » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:26 pm

30 - 40 mins is an incredibly long amount of time to perpetrate a crime. The average bank robbery for instance is completed in less than 10 mins. The Killers felt comfortable enough to take their time.

Not keeping quiet initially because you want to protect children is one thing. Not keeping quiet as youre being stabbed to death is something completely different. Sound travels well at night. How thick were the walls ? Any bushes in between the cabins ? I simply cant believe all of this was done without some sound. As one of the posters said the sounds of a young girl screaming is an attention getter.

Im not sure what caused the murders. They werent random though. That family was targeted for a reason. Who the main target is I dont know. The attacks do show planning to a certain degree rough outline of a plan, but also a lack of specific plans. Most of the items used in the crime came from inside #28 itself. Im not sure if the killers went there specifically to kill. If they did they show a lack of planning how to deal with the people inside. Right now Im thinking they went for some other purpose than to kill and events got out of control. In 30 - 40 mins no one checks the back bedrooms for other people ? Youre willing to walk into a cabin, even if its just to demand your drugs back (as an example only) but youre not willing to thoroughly search that cabin for what you are looking for? How does that work ? I think they didnt search the cabin because they already had what they wanted. Either one of the kids, or Sue.

How do you argue quietly ? How do you escalate quietly ? How do you go from (as an example only, may not bare resemblance to reality) you stole my drugs give them back or ill kick your butt to murdering people .... silently. The killers wanted something from that family. Something the family couldnt or wouldnt give up. That is where it escalated from. What it was the killers wanted I honestly have no idea. All of this is just random thoughts for me. Shaking the tree as it were to see what falls out.

There had to be at least 2 people doing the killings. More than likely there was more. If youre going to make a hit on a group of ppl you need at least equal numbers of attackers to be safe. One attacker for each victim. A better ratio is 2 to 1. My feeling is there was 3 - 5 attackers. 2 - 3 to kill Dana, John and Sue. 1 to 2 to take Tina out of the cabin. Yes it could and probably did happen quite quickly once the fatal part of the attacks occurred. The question is why ? What did the family have that the killers wanted ? I dont remember reading about Sue being sexually assaulted. So a sex crime isnt likely. Why were they targets ? That is one of the main keys to this. That and Tina being taken.
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Postby Zenobia » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:42 pm

Sue had defensive wounds so she didn't lose her life without a fight. I doubt she was quiet when she fought for her life.
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Postby islander » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:02 pm

Zenobia

That is my point. They DID struggle. They DID make noise. But no one claims to have heard anything, and THAT is what i dont believe. Someone heard, someone saw, but theyre not talking. Why ? What frightens them or what reason do they have to keep quiet for so long ?

Are they scared of retaliation ? Do they believe the family deserved it (which i find VERY hard to believe) ? The killers took too much time made too many mistakes, but in a town as small as Keddie was no one knew anything at all. I find that impossible to believe. Someone somewhere talked. This wasnt a mob hit from a professional who will know better than to talk about it after. This was a spur of the moment killing, with a kidnapping thrown in besides. Where was Tina the time she was taken till she was killed ? How do you successfully hide a 12yo girl with that many people involved ? I dont know the answers to those questions but Id sure like to.
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Postby dcheryl83 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:35 am

Hey, have any of you actually seen the crime scene photos?
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Postby jhancock » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:17 am

Yes, Cheryl. Some are viewable in the movie, and some are viewable in the book. And I have seen another handful but was asked not to make them public.
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Postby not sure » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:10 pm

I too believe the key lies with Tina. This whole crime smacks of familiarity...seems personal. I believe it started with a beef with Sue, possibly about Tina, escalated to out of control fury and then remorse, hence the covering of Sue's body.

I feel compelled to bring up Tina's special ed teacher (sorry to those who think I'm a broken record here).

Tina's special ed teacher appeared to be obsessed with her. He had her picture on his desk (not part of a group of pictures or amongst others...hers alone). He's been described by some who knew him in '80-'81 as "a cocky ass". Years later he was convicted of lewd and lascivious with a child under 14. He is a registered sex offender.

To me this is too much of a coincidence. Someone obsessed with Tina then Tina is kidnapped?

I know the argument...if Tina was the target why not take her outside when she's alone...etc. All that can be discussed...I can think of a couple of scenarios. But let's suppose for a minute that Sue was the leverage against Tina rather than the other way around.

Anyway, thought I'd open it up with more thoughts.
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Postby islander » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:17 pm

I think this has too much violence to be a simple case of a obsession. I do agree that it was personal. Someone was furious over something real or imagined. Some of the rumors floating around are a bit odd. Drugs, prostitution etc. Small towns usually have some strange rumors going tho. We have a saying here, "everyone has an opinion on what youre going to do, and sometimes theyre even right".

Im not sure the murders were planned in advance, i tend to think they just happened. They got into a fight which turned ugly. Someone got hit which turned into a frenzy. Dana and John not having defensive wounds indicate they got hit before they knew it. Then Sue was attacked.

Possible that Dana tried to run as some have reported, but something sparked the fight. Is it possible that Dana and John were wrongly accused of stealing drugs ? Cant give them back if you never had them. That could be a prime reason to escalate.

Another possibility is someone believed rumors of Sue being a prostitute. When these didnt turn out to be as true as advertised things got out of hand.

Someone went to that cabin seeking something they couldnt get. That is what escalated it. I dont know if it was drugs that didnt exist, if it was trying to get at one of the children, if it was trying to get at Sue .... one of them had something the killers wanted. They werent willing/able for whatever reason to give it up. The amount of violence suggests someone who wasnt too mentally stable to begin with. Someone with a history or violence/making threats. Someone who would be able to scare others into keeping quiet. Im guessing that the killers had past acts of violence that would make people think twice before crossing them. Would be interesting to see if its possible to do a geographical crime map of the area. This is where you study the crime itself and extrapolate which area's the perpetrator would live in based on the evidence. Apparently its reasonably accurate. It wont tell you who did it, but itll tell you roughly where they came from. Sometimes down to a few blocks from where the offender lives.
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Postby coffee is love » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:35 pm

I believe a stong obsession can be a very dangerous thing. if he was warped enough in his mind to believe that he loved tina or that she loved him could have escalated into something like this. especially if he thought that sue and the boys were standing in their way of "happiness and togetherness".
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Postby noom » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:06 pm

Does anyone know if Shiela had the same father as John and Tina?

It's not uncommon, my mother was married 3 times, I have multiple half-sisters and brothers. :)
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Postby tinkerbell » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:09 pm

Yes we all had the same father.
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Postby noom » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:41 pm

Thank you. :)

The only reason I asked is my mom's 3rd husband was a mean drunk that on occassion would get violent....was just trying to cover all the bases (not like that hasn't been done).
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