number 6451 on the window sill

facts surrounding the Keddie Murders, for beginners and up

Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:21 pm

bingo, Mags- that's why the paint is mentioned on this thread.

MK, my neighbor was a State Trooper and we helped him clean his squad car once. In the trunk he had several cans of spray paint, including red and blue. His were day-glo, though. I remember it well because, as a joke, I sprayed the old shoes I was wearing, one blue and one orange-red, and wore them to school. Years later, I would spray paint a pair of sneakers day-glo orange to wear when riding my motorcycle.

Why would PCSO run to the hardware store and buy matching paint? Did they take a paint chip in as a sample to have the exact tone computer-matched? Or did they grab whatever paint was available- from their squad car, from the utility room, from a neighbor, from the landlord they were always asking the key for? Your "matching white paint" kindness is silly. PCSO don't care about the case, yet they're gonna go buy some white paint to match the house if all they're interested in is obliterating something?
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby Cheshire » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:24 pm

Is it possible that it's fingerprint powder? I just did a quick google search and I see that there are different types of substance (and different colors) used, depending on the surface they are trying to lift prints from.

Here's one link: http://www.bxscience.edu/publications/f ... fing03.htm
Last edited by Cheshire on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:25 pm

naw, cheshire, it's definitely spray paint- a rather deep but radiant blue. Dusting pwder is black, as can be seen in evidence photos from the cabin, particularly the photo of the phone with print dust all over the table.
-------------------------------

ok, to stop the lame arguing (and it is lame because there is NO :-)) BLUE PAINT in the orig photo) put your conclusive photos side by side with mine, MK, and let others decide. I've used Photoshop to analyze the images every step, and there is no blue paint on that window pane in the Sac-TV13 image. MK sees blue, while Chi and I don't. That's three arguments and votes, and we've grown hoarse.
Let others make up their own minds instead of having a pissing contest.

Get back to the point- IF LE put the paint there, why? Did it have anything to do with the writing (6451) Jim Seabolt found? Now that we know the Sharps' phone number was 281-5647, that proves Keddie and 281 exchange numbers went above 5000 in 81- well, by 1980, since the Sharps got the phone back in 80.

If this continues, I'll branch the paint posts off to a new thread under 'speculation', because I didn't mention it here for it to take over. Let's get back on point: Number 6451 on the Wall.

MK- that's the photo I did! That's my mockup of where the paint would be if it were there when Channel 13 took those photos! You are using my mockup to prove the paint was there, when I made the mockup to prove it wasn't.


dmac wrote:The vidcap is one solitary frame taken from around 12:45 into Part 1. It is footage made by Sac TV-13 shortly after the murders, and is definitely prior to the paint being put on the window. The door is open, so we don't know if paint is on the door, but I only ever pointed out that there was no paint on the window. Watch the full footage yourself, which is why I mentioned where it's at. As the camera pans, blue paint should have been seen on the window, on both sides of the stairwell blocking the view.

Here's an animated gif of that screencap, overlayed with a photo of the window taken by PCSO later, and shows that blue paint would be visible had it been there when the video was taken by TV-13: (MUST CLICK TO VIEW)

Image




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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby 1692dave » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:51 pm

FWIW there is also a verticle streak of blue paint on the right threshold of the door (about four feet in length) that is not visible in these photos.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:35 am

Not yet, dave- that paint came years later, after the cabin was painted white; it came around the time the cabins in Keddie, including 26, 27, and 28, were condemned.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby 1692dave » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:21 pm

Well that makes it even more of a curiousity, being it's the same shade of blue and the streak is every bit as inexplicable as the blue paint years earlier applied right after the crime.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby not sure » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:51 pm

Okay, this may be far-fetched but could the number 6451 have anything to do with train numbers or schedules?
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby azucena » Tue May 01, 2012 3:36 pm

Good thought there. But also, back to the possibility it is a partial phone number. In 81, ( as now ) keddie had the prefix 281, Greenville and surrounding environs had the prefix 284. These areas ( also as now ) are mananged by the Frontier phone company. Quincy's prefix is 283 and is under AT&T

I think it is worth trying to determine who had those last 4 digits in all three areas. Any ideas how to ?
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby Cheshire » Tue May 15, 2012 8:29 am

#6451

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos. ... =SP%206451

eastbound Amtrak train #6 City of San Fransico, Norden, CA

Railroad: Southern Pacific Railroad
Locomotive: EMD FP7
Location: Norden, California, USA
Locomotive #: SP 6451
Train ID: AMTK 6
Photo Date: November, 1972
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby Cheshire » Tue May 15, 2012 8:33 am

Also from http://www.flyerguide.net/showphotos.ph ... =SP%206451

Amtrak's westbound Reno Fun Train roars past the signal bridge at Antelope on the bypass track with ex-SP A-B-B-A FP7s for power as Cotton Belt 9157 West waits for it to clear.

Railroad: Southern Pacific Railroad
Locomotive: FP7
Location: Roseville, California, USA
Locomotive #: SP 6451
Train ID: Amtk Reno Fun Train
Photo Date: December, 1971
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby not sure » Tue May 15, 2012 10:31 am

Photo of SP 6451 circa 1974
Image
Great find, Cheshire!
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:16 pm

I'm totally intrigued that Not Sure's and Cheshire's work on the locomotive theory is the answer to 6451. The only trouble I have is a lack of photos of that particular locomotive since 1974- otherwise I buy it. So, hopefully there are some railfans still involved in the case that can put their hobby, expertise, and interest in this case together by solving the mystery of Engine 6451.


Owner: Southern Pacific
Model: EMD FP7A
Built As: SP 6451 (FP7A)
Serial Number: 18135
Order No: 3160
Frame Number: 3160-A6
Built: 2/1953

Southern Pacific bought 16 of the 381 total FP7As produced, giving them rad numbers 6446–6461. So, since Western Pacific (sold to Union Pacific after the murders, in 1983) was in direct competition with SP, what would an SP engine be doing in Keddie? Wouldn't 6451 have been sold to WP for it to have ever come thru the Keddie WP line? I mean, it's all politics and corporate competition, but usually when a locomotive is sold to another line, it's renamed.

Can a railfan please shed some light, because I'm now leaning to the idea 6451 on the windowsill CANNOT mean the SP engine, because that particular locomotive wouldn't pass through Keddie wearing SP paintjob, logo, or number. I know there ended up being an agreement between WP and SP for shared tracks/directional running, but I don't know if it was before or after 4/81, much less if 6451 was still in operation when the agreement was made. Also, the wiki article on EMD FP7s states they weren't used much in mountainous routes. Another source says that agreement was only for a stretch of tracks between Wells and Winnemucca, NV, which again means 6451 would never pass thru Keddie.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby Magnum PI » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:38 pm

Dmac, If my information is correct SP #6451 traveled to Reno in the 70's. Not sure about the 80's but I am still researching.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:37 am

Mags: the point is WP and SP can all get to Reno, but Southern Pacific #6451 isn't going to do it through Keddie, because that entire route was owned by Western Pacific and only WP (and partnered) trains ran on it.

I don't know if I explained it well before, nor will this extra info help, but it may make sense to some:

In 1981, Keddie was Western Pacific and only WP ran on WP rails. Keddie and Keddie Wye was 100% Western Pacific, and Southern Pacific trains never ran on WP lines, so Southern Pacific locomotive #6451 never went thru Keddie.

Here's the logic: Western Pacific owned and ran it's own way through California on their rail system. Southern Pacific had a route over the mountains 2000 feet higher. WP (now UP) and SP were and are competitive railways. Arthur Keddie was brilliant and found a much better route over the Sierras into Nevada= the route he pioneered and eventually owned by WP/UP is about 5500 feet up and a slow grade, while Southern Pacific's route is about 7500 feet elevation and much steeper grades.

Competition.

If you own Nike, why let Converse onto your tracks? Converse has their own tracks, which is why Nike is Nike and Converse is Converse.

Why would someone write 6451 down on that windowsill if we know it had nothing to do with a Southern Pacific locomotive?
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby not sure » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:14 pm

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos. ... =SP%206451 This site shows a 6451 that traveled between Norden, CA (Truckee/Tahoe area) and San Francisco back in the 70s. I haven't found any showing it in usage past 1974 but I also haven't found anything saying it was sent for scrap. There's a reference on this site about another, similar locomotive, being used as the Reno Fun Train that is referred to as an "ex-SP now Amtrak" so it's possible the same happened with 6451...Amtrak bought it off of SP to be used as a passenger train between SF and Reno.

And here's another reference to that locomotive being Westbound http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/r ... 11,1509076

Here's a reference to a current Amtrak 6451. Totally newer version and different location but shows Amtrak still using the number. http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakpix/locos ... 6451A.html

Plus, the number 6451 doesn't seem to be exclusive to SP. Here's another 6451 that originated from, I believe, B&O http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/Locopi ... x?id=56288 and there are references and this one belonging to IC&E in Illinois http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxlgIYc1qIE

My point is I still think its a viable possibility that number refers to a locomotive.

The other thing I thought of the number was perhaps it is part of a car license someone thought they scratched into a water heater? Wondering if the water heater was visible through the window and the guy was so out of it he thought it was the tank he was scratching instead of the sill. Just a thought.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:28 pm

It's viable, but the argument is toast. Several rail lines used 6451, but the only rail line using that # and was close to accessing WP's line and Keddie was Southern Pacific.

Owner: Southern Pacific
Model: EMD FP7A
Built As: SP 6451 (FP7A)
Serial Number: 18135
Order No: 3160
Frame Number: 3160-A6
Built: 2/1953

Western Pacific only bought two FP7s. If you do a search of Keddie Wye images, you will see a ton of photos of these two workhorses: Their road numbers were 804 and 805. When the Zephyr was closed in 70, they were re-geared for freight and renumbered 915 & 916. 804 was wrecked in 5/72, and traded in to GE. 805 was also traded in to GE, then sold to Wellsville Addison & Galeton, then to Louisiana & North West 49, then to Feather River Rail Society, in 1987. It's at the WP museum in Portola.

The vast majority of FP7s were toast by the early 80s, and 83 seems to be a landmark year for retiring the remaining fleet. But, by then, UP had absorbed WP, and SP had sold their 6451 to Amtrak years prior. In fact, they sold 14 FP7s to Amtrak, which remained with UP road numbers and paint until around 1975, when they were all converted to Amtrak paint and road #s (AMTK 110-123). 6451, by 1975, was repainted and renumbered AMTK 115-1. Here are some pictures of these engines during the transition from UP to Amtrak paint- unfortunately, the only photo of 6451 is prior to the new paint and number.

Since there are no other known railways using the number 6451 that could accidentally run on Western Pacific lines (and several railways had access for runs or detouring- Great Northern, Union Pac, BG), and 6451 was retired by 75, it kind of kills the possibility that 6451 is a locomotive. Here's a list of Western Pacific's stock and numbers. A list of Union Pacific stock and numbers- including the sale to Amtrak of 6451. And a list of the WP stock and what happened to it once UP took over in 83. Here's a great little article detailing the rise of Western Pacific, Arthur Keddie's dream route, and some more stock info.

Here's a map of Western Pacific's rail system, and one detailing how it interacted with other lines- including the Inside Gateway ("Highline") that connected Keddie to the great Northern line in Bieber (which goes straight through to Klamath and points north and east)

Image Image

Perhaps railfans can help with this, but I unfortunately think the locomotive idea has nearly bottomed out. When I began last night's post, I thought 'train' was the answer- then I made the mistake of researching it further. (There is BN 6451 which ran with Burlington Northern sometime during the 70s and possibly until 84-there are photos of it in 82. Burlington Northern did occasionally come through Keddie, so more research on BN 6451 is warranted. There is also Conrail's CR 6451 that was running back then, but Conrail is mainly NY/NJ and only goes as far west as Illinois.)

Back to the original info on 6451, and whether Phillip mistook the window sill for the water heater. The first hurdle is believing Phillip, which I don't. He stayed the night at cabin 28 in January 81, according to LE reports, so he would have slept downstairs in Johnny's room. Even if that was the only visit to 28 in his life, it gave him an inside and out perspective of the cabin, including the entire basement and where the heater was. Plus the idea of him hiding down there makes no sense because if the killers were looking for anything, they're going to head to Johnny's room. Downstairs. Where he was supposedly hiding. From the killers. Who he caught a ride into Keddie with. And a ride back to Gansner Field with. Right.

As for the origin of 6451, the only reference I'm aware of that we have access to is the "Persons of Note" file in which, listed by James Seabolt Sr, is the following notation:

    "found #6451 on window sill where John used to sleep"
How recent was it? Pen? Pencil? Scratched in? There are three windows in John's room, all of which were squeezed together in one panel and faced southwest towards the garages at the back of cabin 13-14. You're not going to see any license plates from that POV. The only other outside wall from Johnny's room faced the back yard, but had no windows and was further obscured by the rear stairs. I really liked the rail idea, but I'm back to phone #, partial license plate, or something else entirely.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby Cheshire » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:06 pm

"found #6451 on window sill where John used to sleep"

So we've been assuming that means that the number was written there, but maybe the number refers to a piece of evidence that had been assigned that number. It doesn't fit the numbering scheme used in PCSO/Stoy's evidence reports that are posted here viewtopic.php?f=15&t=856 (which are incomplete), but maybe the fit the numbering scheme used on a different evidence list
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby TREELAND » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:43 pm

Maybe an address with the six or the one being a apartment number and the rest of the numbers being the street address, for example unit 6 at 451 or unit one at 645. Or even a four digit mailing address.
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby dmac » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:48 am

Actually, a long time ago I searched for 6451 Hwy 70, Quincy Ca. Of course, google maps is a generally couple blocks off when it comes to Quincy, but that address is a stones throw from corrupt Rodgobbler DeCrona's house. Of course, the murders happened years before Rod could have stolen enough Jeeps and property and cash, and robbed the Plumas coffers via bullshit health claims, to have amassed the wealth necessary to 'own' that kind of land, houses, and numerous RV toys. No, in '81, he was just another dickweed pig, just starting to suck the government teat.

Image

Exactly how does a third-in-command PCSO douchebag, responsible for countless legitimate lawsuits against the county, the PCSO, and the school district, from outraged citizens molested by him and his heavy-handed, unconstitutional PCSO Pig tactics, legally gather that kind of wealth on a PCSO salary? Oh, simple answer: he DIDN'T!
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Re: number 6451 on the window sill

Postby TREELAND » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:04 pm

DeCrona sounds like a real crook no better then an felon. The location of his home is coincidence but I thought this was too, if you google 451 HWY 70 Quincy, Ca, it comes up as an address in Quincy proper. This a long shot but could the numbers 6451 actually stand for unit six at 451 or even this, six o'clock meeting at 451 in Quincy?
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