810924 Tina's Pervo teacher, Joel Lipsey: full report- 5 p

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810924 Tina's Pervo teacher, Joel Lipsey: full report- 5 p

Postby jhancock » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:34 pm

In Cabin 28: The Keddie Murders Part II, there is a brief mention of Tina's teacher; one woman in the documentary expresses her belief that this teacher was connected to her disappearance in some way. Here is the case file that will supplement that interview in full.

Joel W. L. was interviewed at the Plumas Co. Sheriff's Office on 9-24-81 by Special Agents Bradley and Crim. Joel related the following:

He heard from another teacher on the day of the Keddie murders that Tina Sharp was killed. He came to Quincy to check and talked with someone in the sheriff's office and then he joined the search because he was brand new on the search team and thought he could be helpful if Tina was around because he was one of her teachers and she might respond better to him.

He came to the PCSO about 4-6 weeks after the incident and talked to Ken Shanks about Marilyn S. and her kids. MArilyn told him she thought her husband, Marde S., had made statements about hating kids and that he did not like women. Marilyn told him she has seen some bloody clothing shortly after the murders.

He is a special education teacher and Tina was in his class part time. Tina was in the fifth grade during the 1980-81 school year. He works with slower children and teaches remedial reading, math, etc. Tina was in the fourth grade when she started attending his class. He had Tina three hours a day.

He said Tina made specific references to her home life. He never remembers Tina speaking of her father. Tina was very concerned about her older sister Sheila when Sheila went to Oregon.

Tina did not seem like an unhappy child. Her clothing was not the best. In his opinion Tina was underdeveloped in her social skills compared to her peers.

At one time Tina said her mother's new boyfriend, named Joe, was coming around a lot and this excited Tina because she thought her mom might get married.

Tina was very affectionate and liked to sit on his lap and hug him. He said this was not unusual and other children do the same thing also.

He said Glenna Sue Sharp was very quiet and talked very little when she attended conferences.

Tina had learning problems and didn't act like she was as mature as most 12 year olds. Tina was street-wise and knew how to take care of herself. She was exposed to her older brother and her older sister who had been pregnant. Regarding her physical maturity, Tina was 12 going on 10. She was small for her age. Tina was open and a very hard worker. He couldn't give her enough work to do. Tina rarely mentioned her home life. He doesn't think Tina was trying to reach out to anyone. The family group seemed to be pretty cohesive.

The last time he saw Tina was the Friday before Easter vacation when she was playing handball. Tina seemed happy, no different than any other day. She gave him a hug and then went back to her class.

He saw nothing in his observations of Tina to base an opinion on whether she was sexually promiscuous or not. He wouldn't say it was impossible she could be because of her exposure to her family and the Meeks family. He saw her one cold fall evening dancing in the Pioneer Bowl parking lot with Walter M. Tina was closer to the Meeks kids than any other kids at school. Tina liked to go to Spanish Falls with her brothers and friends.

He doesn't feel Tina could be a participant in the crimes.

He said his former teacher's aide, Gretchen H., might have information that could be helpful to the investigation. He showed agents pictures he had taken of Tina. He said he takes candid shots of the children and then they use the pictures in Mother's Day, Christmas cards, etc.

On the night of the homicide he was out with Tanya H., dropped her off (at her house between 11 and midnight); he then returned to his home and went to bed.
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Re: Tina's teacher - the full report - 5 pages

Postby dawghouse » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:11 pm

Does anyone else find it odd that Joel Dubya would say:

"Tina made specific references to her home life"

then just a few lines down:

"Tina rarely mentioned her home life"


C'mon Joel, does talking to the feds make you nervous, or are you just talking out of your arse?

then there's this:

"Tina...didn't act like she was as mature as most 12-year-olds"

followed immediately by:

"Tina was streetwise and knew how to take care of herself"

OK, what?

Now, I get that 'streetwise' and 'mature' aren't quite the same thing, but making contradictions like this leads one to believe that ol' Joel is talking out of his arse.

Josh, were there any more reports on this Joel guy?
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Re: Tina's teacher - the full report - 5 pages

Postby Chichibcc » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:56 am

I noticed the same contradictions as well...it's as if he couldn't make his mind up (whether he was flat-out lying, or was playing "ping-pong" with his memory).
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Re: Tina's teacher - the full report - 5 pages

Postby dmac » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:23 pm

I'm in no way supporting a pedo but, in reality, this is a great opportunity to repeat the obvious, which I've never seen clearly stated on this forum:

In general, please take note of the language in most of these first-hand 'reports' from LE interviews and interactions. So poorly written that to distinguish which part of which sentence is about which person(s) is difficult, these witless summations are not literate (much less literal) statements made by those being quoted or reported on, so one must obviously consider the opinion of the author(s) as direct motivation for the report's wording.

Finding a news article about this crime proving the author neither misinformed, lying (like Metcalfe), nor editorializing, is unlikely. Given what we know of LE's poor conduct history during and after this crime (much less it's conduct during the investigation itself), we'd be foolhardy to respect any report by them as honest. Quite the contrary: the assumption on our part, if any, should be that the report is written to reflect the attitudes and beliefs with which LE was (is) biasing this case. Stoy's report, faked to show how early PCSO determined Tina was missing, is perhaps the very gauge to whether LE was "tweaking" the truth, how very early it began, and even why.

It would be incredibly stupid not to deduce, much less repeat, the obvious: LE reports in this case were, as always, likely tainted by bias.

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Re: Tina's teacher - the full report - 5 pages

Postby tcmc » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:47 pm

Just because someone RARELY mentions their home life does not mean they NEVER mention it. Rare is not the same as never. On the rare occasions the home life was mentioned, perhaps those rare references were specific. I do not really see the contradiction.
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Re: Tina's teacher - the full report - 5 pages

Postby dawghouse » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:57 am

tcmc wrote:Just because someone RARELY mentions their home life does not mean they NEVER mention it. Rare is not the same as never. On the rare occasions the home life was mentioned, perhaps those rare references were specific.


Thank you for pointing out the difference, bud.

What I posted was that it seemed odd, not that the phrases "Tina rarely mentions her home life," and "Tina made specific references to her home life," are exclusive of one another. Seems like a somewhat disjointed LE report.
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Re: Tina's teacher -Joel Lipsey: the full report - 5 pages

Postby dmac » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:44 am

After months of working the case, we've had many things come to light which make so many of these "old" document posts well worth a fresh spin through the gray room. When looking at the Lipsey report, one should remember Joel was Tina's Special Ed teacher, he was viewed suspiciously in Pt 2 by his ex-girlfriend (Tonya Sherman), and Lipsey is now a Registered Sex Offender.

Tina was in his classes for three hours a day. For context, one must keep in mind Tina was 12 years old (3 months shy of 13) when the murders occurred. She was held back a year or two, and was in the 5th Grade (in the same regular class as her brother, Rick).

Joel W Lipsey Report wrote:Joel W. Lipsey was interviewed at the Plumas Co. Sheriff's Office on 9-24-81 by Special Agents Bradley and Crim. Joel related the following:
Oops! Strike One: Bradley and Crim are infecting the proceedings.

Joel W Lipsey Report wrote:He came to the PCSO about 4-6 weeks after the incident and talked to Ken Shanks about Marilyn Smartt and her kids. Marilyn told him she thought her husband, Marty Smartt, had made statements about hating kids and that he did not like women. Marilyn told him she has seen some bloody clothing shortly after the murders.
Oops! Ken Shanks, a man cut from the same cloth as Joel: pedophile. Why didn't they note WHEN Marilyn proffered these statements?

Joel W Lipsey Report wrote:He is a special education teacher and Tina was in his class part time. Tina was in the fifth grade during the 1980-81 school year. He works with slower children and teaches remedial reading, math, etc. Tina was in the fourth grade when she started attending his class. He had Tina three hours a day.

He said Tina made specific references to her home life. He never remembers Tina speaking of her father. Tina was very concerned about her older sister Sheila when Sheila went to Oregon.
Note the open-ended statements throughout this- and all other- interviews and documents. Ask a question that opens a can of worms, ignore the worms and move to the next topic without clarification. WHY WAS TINA CONCERNED FOR SHEILA???!

It's important to note that Sheila, at 13-14, got pregnant by Richard Meeks (3 years older). She was sent to Oregon to have the baby, so she probably left for Oregon while the family was still living in Quincy (Sheila's been asked and "can't remember"). She did visit the family for a short period at Christmas 1980, but it sounds like she never really lived in Keddie with the family until some time after she had the baby in Feb 1981. Why is this important? If Sheila was only living in Keddie for 8 weeks prior to the murders, it directly impacts our understanding of Sheila's knowledge of Keddie, what was going on there, what she had missed while she was gone, her mom's activities, friends, boyfirends, behavior, possible conflicts, etc. Asme goes for her knowledge of recent events surrounding anyone in the house, Dana, suspects, etc, etc.

Joel W Lipsey Report wrote:Tina did not seem like an unhappy child. Her clothing was not the best. In his opinion Tina was underdeveloped in her social skills compared to her peers.
Given Tina was held back two years and he was her Special Ed teacher to boot, exactly what he means by "peers" is difficult to establish. At shool, her classmates were 2-3 years younger than her, so were those her peers? Were 12 yo kids her peers? The definition of 'peers' is very specific, yet Crim and Bradley, as usual, failed to clarify Joel's intended meaning.

Joel W Lipsey Report wrote:At one time Tina said her mother's new boyfriend, named Joe, was coming around a lot and this excited Tina because she thought her mom might get married.

Joe Baze, father of John Baze where Johnny and Richard Meeks were at the morning of April 11th. This, of course, contradicts Sheila's version of events, and Sheila inexplicably refuses to discuss conflicting entries in the timelines, the Bazes in general, or even answer where the Baze's lived (Brown's Trailer Park).

Joe Baze claims he met Sue twice, dating her once and asking her to marry him. However, Tina is adamant that they were dating a lot and might get married. Of course, this all happened "about 6 weeks prior to the murders", which is Feb 28 1981. Sheila was likely already home from Oregon, but "can't remember" Joe Baze dating Sue.

    801100-0000a Joe Baze had been to the Sharp residence once. (between 11/80 & 3/81)

    810200-0000a Joe Baze met Sue Sharp at the bowling alley about six weeks prior to murders. He saw her only two times, but talked to her on the telephone several times.

    810411-1100a Richard Meeks says he was with Johnny at the Holiday Market from 11:00 am until 1:00 pm when one of the Dorises drove up and let Dana out and then the three of them went to visit John 810411-1100a Richard M. says he was with Johnny at the Holiday Market from 11:00 am until 1:00 pm when one of the Dorises drove up and let Dana out and then the three of them went to visit John B. (note: times conflict with Sheila’s, who says they returned home at noon).

    810411-1200a John B. says Johnny and Dana came to his place between noon and 3 p.m. They left at about 3 and said they were going to the Foster Home and then to Keddie (matches Richard M.’s times somewhat, but conflicts again with Sheila’s times). (noon-3pm)

    810411-1330b Sheila said that she, Ricky and her mother picked up Johnny and Dana at Gansner Park and drove home. Approximate time: 1:30 p <Bradley>

    810411-1330b Johnny and Dana start hitchhiking into town, states Justin. Approximate time: 1:30 p <Thomas>

    810411-1330b Richard Meeks states that he, Johnny and Dana visited John Baze at Brown's Trailer Park. (afternoon) <Stoy>

    810411-1330b "Sparky" 175-200 lbs, brown straight collar length hair. Wore blue jeans and a Harley-Davidson shirt and jacket. He was at John Baze's home with Richard Meeks, Johnny, and Dana (1:30 p - 2:00 p) <Stoy>

    810411-1330b Johnny and Dana leave the Baze residence. They tell Baze they are going to the foster home and then to Keddie. <Brubaker>

    810411-1545b Joe Baze leaves Quincy for Susanville and Standish. Approximate time: 3:45 p <Brubaker>

    810411-2000b Joe Baze is in Susanville spending the night with Helen J. States Helen. 8:00 p <Harrison>
That's a brief collection of just a few inconsistencies surrounding the Baze's and Richard Meeks' version of events, compared with Sheila's and Justin's basic version that they were in Keddie. I'll be compiling a far more detailed list of info on this critical series of events in a separate thread.

Joel W Lipsey Report wrote:Tina had learning problems and didn't act like she was as mature as most 12 year olds. Tina was street-wise and knew how to take care of herself. She was exposed to her older brother and her older sister who had been pregnant. Regarding her physical maturity, Tina was 12 going on 10. She was small for her age. Tina was open and a very hard worker. He couldn't give her enough work to do. Tina rarely mentioned her home life. He doesn't think Tina was trying to reach out to anyone. The family group seemed to be pretty cohesive.

He saw nothing in his observations of Tina to base an opinion on whether she was sexually promiscuous or not. He wouldn't say it was impossible she could be because of her exposure to her family and the Meeks family. He saw her one cold fall evening dancing in the Pioneer Bowl parking lot with Walter M. Tina was closer to the Meeks kids than any other kids at school. Tina liked to go to Spanish Falls with her brothers and friends.
Throughout the report, Joel indicates that Tina's exposure to her older siblings and, in particular, the Meeks, had a detrimental impact on her.

Joel W Lipsey Report wrote:On the night of the homicide he was out with Tanya H., dropped her off (at her house between 11 and midnight); he then returned to his home and went to bed.
This sounds like Tonya Sherman, with H reflecting her maiden name.
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Re: Tina's teacher - the full report - 5 pages

Postby meankitty » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:46 am

Night Rider has mentioned on the old cabin 28 site that the PCSO investigated this guy into the 1990's. His statements were 'hinky' enough that I can see why they would. They are as contradictory as Chuck W. and Henry T.'s accounts.
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Re: Tina's teacher -Joel Lipsey: the full report - 5 pages

Postby Ausgirl » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:42 pm

Damn straight. I was wracking my brain the other day, trying to think who's said what about Tina sitting on whose knee and who was coming 'round all the time...

And it was Joe "I dated her once and dumped her for Jesus" Baze. The serial husband/polygamist. Who is a serious contender in my mind for being the "Avery" that Sue was meant to be arguing with, and probably pizza place guy as well. Because he LIED THROUGH HIS ASS to LE after the murders, didn't he. He knew the home, he knew the kids (and hey, one of 'em was around his place that very day..) - did he lie out his ass so as not become a suspect? Or because he really might be one? We don't know who he knew, do we?
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Re: Tina's teacher -Joel Lipsey: the full report - 5 pages

Postby azucena » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:01 pm

Tanya H and Tanya Sherman are the same person. I believe she dated Joel for a short while, and did not have good feelings about his actions with children.

All of the points made here reinforce to me two things:

1. There were some problems in the Sharp household ( this is not to cast blame ) and this is likely a factor in Shelia not wanting to discuss certain things due to skeletons in the closet.

2. There are many theroies about WHO was the intended target, with sound logic behind anyone of them being the intended victims:

a. Sue, issues with men, and in one case, specfically Bo. Maybe she had information about one or both of the killers she was aboiut to divulge, and had to be silenced, as well as other reasons raised here.

b. Johnny and Dana as the intended targets seems to primarily focus on something to do with drugs that went bad

c. Tina possibility of pregnancy, and victim of sexual molest.etc

3. We don't know who the intended victim (s) actually were, thus, it is very , very difficult to then ascertain motive. Both of these two issues are the elephant in the room.

4. There are so many contradictionsEVERYWHERE, from where key people were on that day, to the behavior of the murderers. Some of their actions appear so juvenile, yet smart ( no pun intended ) as in crazy smart. Bo and Marty's inconsitant statements to LE appear so dumb, who could have failed to see them, but maybe that was their intention all along.... Which then points to the seeming utter incompetance of LE. Not to mention DT resigning, going to DOJ and Ken Shanks, the next Sheriff being a sexual perpetrator., and ultimately, PCSOs failure to solve this case.

Another question: WHO does not want this case solved and WHY?

And: While I am completely compassionate to the surviving Sharp family members and the horror they have had to live through, is there a reason they do not want the case solved?
If so, WHY?
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Re: Tina's teacher -Joel Lipsey: the full report - 5 pages

Postby azucena » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:06 pm

One more thing :

It is fair to assume even now, thirty plus years later, that there are a NUMBER of people who know exactly what happended that night and why, yet remain silent, another big WHY?
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Re: Tina's teacher -Joel Lipsey: the full report - 5 pages

Postby dmac » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:17 pm

So many blatant lies, and 30 years later the only people calling them on it is us. How much longer do you think it should be until it's LE's turn to do their f-ing job?!
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Re: Tina's teacher -Joel Lipsey: the full report - 5 pages

Postby Kyburz » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:38 am

Tina lands in Quincy to be molested by some ‘class A pedo’ in a nearby trailer court. The call to action was certainly underwhelming, in that days went by, before a male officer was sent to take a report.

Meanwhile… Tina attends a special education class with a State certified instructor named Lipsey. He’s got hours of one-on-one time, in a cloistered setting, where he is Tina’s surrogate parent, protector and teacher, as appointed by society.

The Plumas County Unified School system is the single agency which is tasked with the education of children, as well as their care while on the property, from K through 12th grade.

During Part II (15:36 - 16:10) Tonia Sherman manages to haltingly describe how she was associated with Tina:

“In a program, at the school that I worked… in, as a senior, I was in work experience…”

Perhaps I misunderstood some nuance here, but this ‘18’ year old, although a legal adult, was in fact a student at Quincy High School, who was enrolled in a work experience program, in the same school system, but at the elementary school where Tina was enrolled. (Is that correct?)

Because Tonia went on to say how she began ‘dating’ that teacher while she was associated with Tina. So this teacher had a relationship with an ‘18’ year old student, who was still enrolled in the school system, which facilitated her ‘training and work experience’ for class credit? (Is that correct?)

Besides the wasteland of ethics this represents, the potential check/balance (Tonia) to the Special Education Teacher, had a relationship with him, leaving Tina utterly exposed. This Tonia seems completely nonplussed by this ‘relationship’, in spite of the passing of many years. I can’t imagine this being acceptable behavior or conduct regarding any student/teacher association. Let alone what sort of conduct Tina may have witnessed as acceptable and normal between her Teacher and Tonia. (I must have misunderstood something?)

Did Tina ever stand a chance? Where could she go? Police, School, Neighbors? All roads lead to ruin.
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Re: Tina's teacher -Joel Lipsey: the full report - 5 pages

Postby dmac » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:13 pm

It's a very sick setup, indeed, but my info says Tonia was enrolled at FRC. Still, it changes little of what you've gleaned. And, to be absolutely honest, the fact he is a pedo hunting Tina shows why HIS photos of Tina and HIS observations into the Sharp family are so relevant and real. PCSO thought he was GOD, having all those photos of Tina pasted on his walls.

Of course, he lies a lot to protect himself, but he does make observational comments that fit.
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Re: Tina's teacher -Joel Lipsey: the full report - 5 pages

Postby Kyburz » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:35 pm

That’s what drew my attention to what Tonia said DMAC. My ‘social bias’ was in full swing, because I thought (surmised) she was a senior at FRC, pursuing her teaching credentials. An ‘18’ year old college senior hadn’t even sunk in yet.

So I did what all geniuses do, and completed a search on FRC to discover it was a Junior College, and therefore wouldn’t have their hallowed halls populated with seniors or juniors. So where was she a senior?

She is listed as an alumni of the Class of ’81 on Classmates.com, which is in alignment with being an ‘18’ year old senior in 1981. She may have been enrolled at FRC as well, but was still a student of the Plumas County Unified School system, where Lipsey was employed, and would have been canned in a second if that ‘relationship’ was known about in the school systems near me. No quibbling or apologist’s rhetoric, just dismissal and the likely revocation of his credentials.

He couldn’t wait till June when the conflict of interest would have been over, at Tonia’s graduation? It’s still creepy as hell, but over. What does this say about his character or impulsivity?

How long could she have been eighteen? According to the ‘California Birth Index’, she had been a legal adult for less than three months when the murders took place. What on Earth did Lipsey do? Check her student files to find out the precise date he could ‘harvest’ her, while limiting his risk to legal prosecution? I can only imagine if Tonia looked like a young ‘18’ year old (read passing for 14) and what exactly Lipsey did to make this ‘18’ year old uncomfortable during their relationship. Was he interested in photography or for her to dress a certain way?

I don’t think Lipsey had anything to do with the Keddie murders or Tina’s kidnapping, but I do think Lipsey danced between the raindrops ethically and morally as early as 1981. The Sheriff’s report confirms that Lipsey was out with Tonia on the night of the 11th, they must (or should) have known who she was and that she was a high school student in the same system where Lipsey taught. Are these dots truly that small and difficult to connect?
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