Hello everybody

introduce yourself, & tell us how you became interested in the case.

Hello everybody

Postby saintpat » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:28 pm

I've seen references to the Keddie killings over the last few years and recently found this. I've absorbed what I think are the basics of the crime as a lurker and now I've joined.

I have a few thoughts/questions that I'd appreciate some feedback on as a primer, as stuff is scattered about and I don't want to start new threads on old topics that I've missed, if anyone wants to help catch me up:

1) Keddie -- can anyone help me understand this community a little better? I get that there are cabins, but it's odd that they are known by all residents by number (at least to me) this way. I mean, most houses are known by addresses. Are they all rental cabins? Who owns them? And what's the Dorm -- colleges usually have dorms, but communities? I get the feeling it's a bit of a cross between a resort town and maybe someone's idea of a hippie communte (at least at some point), but that's just an impression. And then there's Tina being found by Camp Eighteen -- what's the deal with the numbering system there?

2) How big of a community are we takling about in the early 1980s? How many residents were more permanent and how many were more passers-through (I hate to call them transients)? Is it one restaurant and one bar and one general store kind of thing, or was there more to the town than I've gleamed? And also -- and this relates directly to the murders and who might have committed them -- how far out of the way was Keddie? Was it somewhere you'd have to know it's there and want to go there to end up there, or would truckers/travelers/etc. kind of know about it and pull of a major highway between Reno and somewhere or Sacramento and somewhere?

3) Concerning the night of the murders, the vehicles -- there are reports of the Corvair (at least one suspect's report), the dark green van in front of the cabin, a car that was seen parking at the house next door (if someone was driving there to commit the crime and knew they were up to no good, makes more sense that they wouldn't want their car seen parking in front of the cabin, so they might park nearby). What vehicles were accounted for in and around Cabin 28 when the bodies were discovered, and were any of the others mentioned tracked down?

I guess that's a good bit for a welcome wagon post. Thanks to those who have contributed so much to this -- especially the transcripts and photos and documents, as well as the conjecture and such. Obviously there are people who still care, which is good to know.
saintpat
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:13 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby dmac » Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:21 pm

Welcome, St Pat- here are a few quick quips to hopefully help:

Keddie never had a real address system. Roads had no names that I know of, other than local names. Keddie is incredibly small- if you look at Keddie on a google map it now shows how close the roads and cabins were/are, but if you were to land there and look around you would FREAK THE F OUT about how CLOSE everything really is- NOTHING is distant in Keddie.

There are maps and cabin layouts and designs scattered across the forum, but I think the most important thing about understanding Keddie is SCALE. Keddie is miniscule, the cabins were hovels- still are- and if you stand next to the Lodge today and fart accidentally, three cabins and the lodge and dorm will fall.

Ignore the word 'resort' because it was a slave train town, not a resort town. Owners TRIED and FAILED MISERABLY every time they tried. The lodge restaurant had a lot of traffic during prolific periods, but it was NEVER a resort paradise.

In the early 80s, how many lived there? Well, let's draw some lines. Screw "old" keddie cuz it doesn't count- the south area by the old roundhouse and where the Walkes lived? Screw that- it has NOTHING to do with the REAL Keddie involved in this case. Look at the map link I showed you, that is the real Keddie- very small.

The info about who owned what and why is kinda all over the place. The main names are Mollath, Albin and Hogaboam. Mollath needs a real good look.

Ignore the Corvair-- that is Bo the murderer talking junk. What we are looking for is the green and white vehicle found in front of 28 that night by Sheila's friends- who she was sleeping with. They saw it, Sheila was already blind.

Here is my best link to what "Keddie" was in 1981- this is the area 'owned' and 'controlled' by Albin/Hogaboam, although Mollath was being paid triple figures to live across the highway and do JACK- he was being paid by his corrupt family to watch Keddie, which was being leased for a sum far lower than he was being paid. Duh, let's look at THAT angle as to why the murders were covered up


http://goo.gl/maps/9lsQ9
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
reach me at
keddie28 AT gmail DOT com
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3209
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 709 times
Been thanked: 2666 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby saintpat » Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:05 pm

Thank you, Dmac.

I had seen googlemaps of it, but this time I hit the satellite image for the first time where you can see the terrain and whatnot and it put it in better perspective -- not only close and small, but also seems pretty isolated. By that I don't mean that it's not in driving distance of Reno or whatever, but to get to the cabin area it appears you'd really have to want to go there and know that it's there -- and it doesn't seem the kind of place that a random serial killer would pull over and figure he had a good comfort zone and be able to get away with a crime like this.

Which means whoever did it in all likelihood knew the area and the lay of the land.
saintpat
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:13 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby ache » Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:25 am

saintpat wrote: And then there's Tina being found by Camp Eighteen -- what's the deal with the numbering system there?


Camp 18 was a lumber camp owned and operated by the Feather River Pine Mills lumber company. There were many of these small mill towns in the region, some had names but many only had numbers as they were not real towns, only settlements that sprang up around the milling/timber industry in the area. Once the logging moved to other areas or the mills closed down, the people moved on too and the camps and settlements were often abandoned. I'm not certain of the dates but I believe the mill at Camp 18 ceased operations some time in the 1950's.
These types of places are very popular with people like the bottle collector who found Tina's skull because the people who lived in them used to dump their trash in trenches, so it's a great place to find antique bottles, etc.
I found
after all the searching,
life was only what I made it

These users thanked the author ache for the post:
dmac (Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:58 pm)
User avatar
ache
 
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 48 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby saintpat » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:08 pm

Thanks ache.

What with all these camps and cabins, I keep picturing people doing archery and canoeing and macrame and singing around a little fire.

BTW, I've seen mentions of the college. How big is it, and how nearby? Did all the people living in the dorm go to the college, or was it more of a hostel or what? I'm wondering if that's a transient population in the dorm.
saintpat
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:13 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby krazykat » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:32 am

saintpat wrote:Thank you, Dmac.

I had seen googlemaps of it, but this time I hit the satellite image for the first time where you can see the terrain and whatnot and it put it in better perspective -- not only close and small, but also seems pretty isolated. By that I don't mean that it's not in driving distance of Reno or whatever, but to get to the cabin area it appears you'd really have to want to go there and know that it's there -- and it doesn't seem the kind of place that a random serial killer would pull over and figure he had a good comfort zone and be able to get away with a crime like this.

Which means whoever did it in all likelihood knew the area and the lay of the land.


Technically it was a mass murder with an abduction, not a serial killing. However, that doesn't mean there weren't serial killings in the surrounding area's and Keddie is located on a major highway that is a beautiful drive down the feather river canyon. I can definitely see a serial killer being comfortable in the area.
krazykat
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:53 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby krazykat » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:41 pm

I think on campus dorm space was pretty limited due to the fact that it's a community college. I had some friends around that time that wanted to transfer there from Shasta College in Redding and were having a hard time finding a place to live.
krazykat
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:53 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby Chichibcc » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:00 pm

Given the various kinds of people that were probably living in the dorms at that time (transients, druggies, and who knows what else) I would've gladly taken one of the ramshackle cabins over dorm living anyday.
User avatar
Chichibcc
 
Posts: 429
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:08 am
Has thanked: 656 times
Been thanked: 239 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby saintpat » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:13 pm

To me, the dorm is the one thing that really sticks out and offers a very viable alternate theory to the generally-accepted M+B as perps.

There are obvious reasons to suspect the duo, but to my mind nothing that would have been enough to try to prosecute them (I'm presuming the confession was not admissable due to patient confidentiality, and I'm not certain there was enough in that 'confession' to corroborate and make it stand up). There was also, it seems, a poor effort to try to obtain more evidence, and the reasons for that are open to debate, running from incompetence to those who believe the police deliberately tanked the investigation for whatever reasons.

These boards are full of such, but what if maybe, just maybe, the prime suspects weren't the perps? What if the reason it hasn't been solved has more to do with the fact that someone who was familiar with the area dropped in, committed the crime, and moved on -- that the victims were random in nature (or only selected because Sue or Tina caught someone's eye?

For the most part, this community just seems too remote/close/small or something like that for a random spree killer (or serial killer with a string of other victims before or after) to happen to pull off the neareset main highway, venture in without being seen or drawing notice, then pick out Cabin 28 and kill some folks, leave live possible witnesses and, by the way, kidnap a young girl.

To me, this had to be someone familiar with the area. And the 'transient' population in the dorm opens that possibility -- no telling how many people might have been in and out of there in the months and years leading up to the murders. People who lived there could have wandered around without drawing notice, and maybe saw something that later led to them returning to kill.

Or even a current-at-the-time resident?

Just a thought.
saintpat
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:13 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby dmac » Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:12 am

The dorm is certainly a huge impact on the situation- look at what we've been able to tie together recently with who lived in and frequented the dorm- like all the Krois were partiers and hung out there, and were there when Walke did his "let's knock him off like they did it in Keddie" routine- and the phrasing on that is SO foul and suspect! Why would he say "like they did in Keddie" when he was IN KEDDIE, not 30 yards from the damned cabin itself? Skunk works. Back to the dorm, though- if it was 2 rooms to a bed and anywhere near full occupancy, that's a helluva lotta 20-somethings roaming around. Keddie was a dive, but it was like most of Plumas: a cesspool with no jobs and low rent.

The dorm was mainly college kids- two beds to a room. The beds were built by Mr Seabolt years before the Albins took over and re-opend it. There is a good article online here telling their story (Albins / Hogaboams) and how they were putting everything back together and they needed the dorm and restaurant open by a certain date to meet expected intake of college kids. From the way they put it, it seemed the restaurant was also part of the deal- A cheap room and a bed and a couple meals a day from the lodge.

Ha! Found the link!
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=756

Hope that helps, but I don't really see anything that can get Bo, Marty, and Marilyn off the hook for a quad. They did it, and then pigs screwed the victims and justice.
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
reach me at
keddie28 AT gmail DOT com
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3209
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 709 times
Been thanked: 2666 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby saintpat » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:10 pm

Help me with the Marty/Marde/whatever "confession." I've looked all over the site and I certainly could have missed it, but where can I find the details?

I see "I did it" and "I didn't do it" and "some people I know could have done it" and "I had some trouble in Keddie" references ... but I don't see details (again, I haven't seen the documentaries.

A confession without details that can be corroborated isn't worth a lot -- a lot of major crimes have false confessors. Is there anything anyone can sink their teeth into. Details? Things only the killer would know.

M&B are the best suspects ... based on the information we have. But without this vague (unless I'm missing a transcript or account with details) confession, would they stand out so much?

The problem with a case from so long ago is we only have what records still exist to go on, and there may be other records lost or other people who would have been suspects if we knew more about them. M&B are the chief suspects because of what we know, but we don't know what we don't know, if you know what I mean. And what do we know about the confession?
saintpat
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:13 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby frida » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:34 pm

Welcome to the board, Saint Pat!

Marty confessed to a therapist at a clinic. The therapist discusses this confession in the film that Josh made.
I'm here all week folks!
User avatar
frida
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:11 pm
Location: Chicago, IL
Has thanked: 201 times
Been thanked: 146 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby saintpat » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:26 pm

frida wrote:Welcome to the board, Saint Pat!

Marty confessed to a therapist at a clinic. The therapist discusses this confession in the film that Josh made.


I'm curious as to the details revealed in the confession. As I've said, there are no better suspects that we know of, but did the confession include information that only one of the killers could have known?
saintpat
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:13 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby Eastern » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:07 pm

He didn't give details of how he killed, but he did tell a motive in his confession.

I think there are some important details on how they were killed in his interview with LE and they were details he could not have gained from what was being reported - the autopsy results weren't in yet. As far as I know, those details were never reported anyway. He knew they had been killed with a hammer and then stabbed after that. To me, that is a huge detail the killers would know and not something any of the other confessors claimed.

He talked about the overkill - maybe that could have been taken from radio reports, but I haven't heard anyone say yet that the radio stations were reporting that quickly after the murders that there was overkill.

He also demonstrated to Crim and Bradley how the victims' hands were tied. Maybe Justin described to him how their hands were tied, but if that were the case, it wouldn't jive with what else he said about Justin.

He went into details about the back bridge and how Tina could have been taken out of the resort. Then he refuted that possibility and claimed the bridge was kept locked. It wasn't and a guy who lived across the back bridge came and went via that route to the backdoor that night.

These users thanked the author Eastern for the post (total 2):
frida (Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:13 pm) • meankitty (Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:05 pm)
User avatar
Eastern
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:24 am
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 267 times

Re: Hello everybody

Postby Eastern » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:01 am

dmac wrote:
Here is my best link to what "Keddie" was in 1981- this is the area 'owned' and 'controlled' by Albin/Hogaboam, although Mollath was being paid triple figures to live across the highway and do JACK SHIT- he was being paid by his corrupt family to watch Keddie, which was being leased for a sum far lower than he was being paid. Duh, let's look at THAT angle as to why the murders were covered up


http://goo.gl/maps/9lsQ9


Dmac, ache, and I discovered an error in the document stating what the Mollath's were paying Gary in 1979 to manage the resort. There was a typo in the court document when they were challenged by the California Board of Equalization for their deductions, with Gary's salary being one of the deductions. The correct figure they paid him was $43,481.48. In one part of the document, whoever typed it made a mistake and put an 8 for the $ sign - 843,481.48. The correct amount was in another part of the document and was in Gary's income tax return.

So, all these years it was posted that he was being paid nearly a million dollars per year to manage the resort and all the implications that went along with that, but he was actually being paid $43,481.48. Still a nice salary in 1979 for a 23 year old, but nowhere near the ludicrous amount of $843,481.48.

These users thanked the author Eastern for the post (total 6):
dmac (Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:20 pm) • not sure (Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:24 pm) • bigsis (Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:23 am) • Princess (Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:28 pm) • Mamma_C (Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:34 pm) • Chichibcc (Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:56 am)
User avatar
Eastern
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:24 am
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 267 times


Return to intros

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests