Posed or not

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Posed or not

Postby krazykat » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:12 pm

Eastern wrote:but Dana's face (although they brutally left little of his face after they beat him) was fairly close to and "looking at" Sue's exposed private parts. I lean towards that being done deliberately instead of by accident when they were staging the bodies. There seems to be a strong component to sexually humiliating Sue (regardless of whether their intent was initially to rape her or not) and possibly some sexual humilation of Dana, too, i.e., the striking him on his rear, his face being obliterated, and in the position they left his body.


When I first saw the crime scene photo's with the bodies as found it struck me that this wasn't a crime staged to look like Johnny and Dana were the primary victims but a scene posed to humiliate the victims. With quite possibly a tableau set up to convey a message.

Not only is Dana's head turned to look at Sue's private parts but a blanket covers both Sue and Dana's pillow. So it seems that Dana is peaking under the blanket. To me this is a clear message that Dana knew something very private. That the killers or killer may have known.

When looking at Johnny you can say that his pants were pulled down because he was dragged into position, or you can imagine that his pants were pulled down by the killers to expose Sheila's shorts. that would leave Johnny laying on his back face up with his secrets exposed. If you look at the photo of his hand and read the description you'll find that they are not in a natural position. The fingers aren't entwined or the hands clasping which would be comfortable. If I position my own hands by the description and from the picture I find that they are more in the position of grasping something. Something that isn't there anymore.

Then there's Dana who's face down. His face mostly buried in the couch cushion. His head towards Sue. His pants are unzipped and pulled down a short ways also. He's bound at the ankle to Johnny by a white electrical cord and to Sue with the blanket and pillow. If they were staging the scene to look like Johnny and Dana were the main victims why position Dana with his head in that cushion.

So it could be crude staging or something more sophisticated. I can go either way with it and I think there's other elements that could be discussed. Like where is Tina in all this,(was the couch cushion supposed to represent her). The victims with few signs of torture or defensive wounds. Tina's body being taken to a place where two bodies where found. I wrapped naked in a bedspread.....
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Re: Posed or not

Postby Ausgirl » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:44 am

I've been wanting to discuss this for some time.

Now, I do realise that some folks like to keep things nice and simple and have theories that follow neatly along that route, and that fact is quite appreciated.

However, several things about the staging have bothered me for a long time and are IMO very worth looking at just in case things weren't so linear.

I've read posts where folks have suggested that the staging could have been someone trying to make it look like a serial killer had blown through town, and I have to admit those ideas would explain a lot where the crime scene is concerned. Others have thought that maybe an actual serial killer really did pass through Keddie - which is also quite a valid idea, considering one known serial killer was squarely in the midst of the crime's 'inner circle' for a time. Not that I think Silveria did these murders. Just that there was a lot of very questionable people hanging around, killers among them, so I don't think the idea of an experienced killer having a hand in the murders is as far fetched as anybody might wish it was.

Anyway, here's a few the things that I thought were relevant in light of the topic, a short list due to the lateness of the hour:

- The boys being tied together - in a way that served no practical function at all.

In fact, when I figured out that both boys must have been dead prior to having their feet tied together with the white electrical cord, my first thought was, "what might that symbolise? what could the killer possibly have meant by that?" John was face up, Dana face down. Both boys were re-positioned, after death, and then linked together via this white cord. Why?

- The 'defacing' of all of the victims.

All the victims in the cabin were severely facially beaten (and the broken bones on Tina's skull suggest maybe she was, too) - and their faces literally obscured by damage and blood. Sue was gagged to a degree that is simply ludicrous, when in practical terms she could have simply been silenced by a blow, and her mouth was smashed in. That says to me - 'rage, and an acute desire to wipe these people out of existence, to literally de-face ALL of them'. But why? Why was the enormous effort of actually controlling and killing them not enough?

- That all victims were moved post mortem at least once.

Again, I am drawn to thinking of the sheer effort involved. First, the killers killed four people, at least three of whom were able to put up a fight. Then they moved three bodies around - three heavy dead bodies. Having tried to pick my child up when she was still quite small, on those occasions when she didn't want to be picked up and made herself 'dead weight' and also trying to move drunk friends from one place to another in my wilder days.. -- all I can say is that I have an iota of understanding as to what tremendous energy must have been expended in the staging - energy expended by people who'd already taxed themselves in having just killed a bunch of other people. It's not as if any of the staging would have been easy. It entailed risk (in the time taken, the chance of discovery) and a great deal of effort, and that's why I think it could have had some deeper significance or payoff to the killers than simply mussing up the crime scene.

And if the killer was Marty .. I can't help but wonder at how utterly exhausted that man must have been by the time he killed and then moved a bunch of people that night, before he and the others went to 'Reno' the next day (12th), let alone at 4am the following morning (13th) when he left the Meeks house and presumably walked the seven miles back to Keddie -- and then had the wherewithal to give a fairly coherent interview six hours later, at 10am...

- That Sue was hogtied after she'd already been bound, beaten and stabbed - and very possibly post-mortem as well.

Yes, this and her state of undress, and possibly the position of Dana, was a humiliation of Sue. But who was that really aimed at? Sue, is the first person to come to mind, probably the most logical conclusion for a logical mind to make. But there's nothing to say it wasn't for the 'benefit' of somebody else, either. What I mean is, the humiliation may or may not have had everything to do with the killer wanting to humiliate Sue in particular - all the victims were 'degraded' by the beatings and killings, the bindings, but this last bit of staging left Sue exposed (ETA: the blanket covering her is one of the things I'd like to discuss at some later point).. and she was already well and truly dead by then. So I think it's fair to consider that maybe Sue was less the target than one means of lashing out at the target (this target being real - the cops, somebody sure to see the bodies - or just in the killer's sick mind - acting out a fantasy, or some event relevant to his past, etc).

I dunno about anyone else, but the more I look at how much effort went into the murders, the staging, all of it - I see not some random act, not some hasty rape attempt gone wrong, but a man with a plan..

Anyway, no answers here. Just more questions. But I do think there's a chance they could be valid ones. I'll come back to this when I have the time/wherewithal to think of other aspects relevant to this topic.
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Re: Posed or not

Postby SammieJo » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:50 pm

I know this is kinda off topic- but you mentioning how much energy it would take to move them all around- I was watching a show the other day about a case where a man had been wrongly convicted & his defense team proved it through DNA found on parts of the victim's clothing that the perp had most likely touched (turns out they DID find DNA on the front of the woman's undies where the killer had yanked them down) Which makes me think, if PCSO still has the victim's clothing then they could possibly get DNA from it, the perps were probably sweaty after moveing them around which can leave DNA...Of course in the show they had to send it off all the way to the netherlands to a private lab.....Something tells me that would involve too much effort on the part of PSCO....
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Re: Posed or not

Postby Princess » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:03 pm

Speaking of DNA, I contacted Bill Elliot at PCSO and I told him that Vickie, Bo's daughter was willing to give DNA for testing. Bill said that after discussing the case with whomever, the DNA was not needed at this time, but maybe in the future. Make sense out of that! I asked Bill why, and he would not give me a direct answer.
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Re: Posed or not

Postby Eastern » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:11 pm

SammieJo wrote:I know this is kinda off topic- but you mentioning how much energy it would take to move them all around- I was watching a show the other day about a case where a man had been wrongly convicted & his defense team proved it through DNA found on parts of the victim's clothing that the perp had most likely touched (turns out they DID find DNA on the front of the woman's undies where the killer had yanked them down) Which makes me think, if PCSO still has the victim's clothing then they could possibly get DNA from it, the perps were probably sweaty after moveing them around which can leave DNA...Of course in the show they had to send it off all the way to the netherlands to a private lab.....Something tells me that would involve too much effort on the part of PSCO....


Was talking about that recently with another poster - considering how many objects the perps handled or touched in the cabin, there must be DNA on a key object to pretty much conclusively identify at least one of the killers. The perps did try to wipe some of the evidence, but no perp DNA left on the wood handled butcher knife or hammer? DOJ claimed, no, as far as I know. Better yet, no useable DNA from the knife found in the trash bin at the store - a knife that was most likely a personal one owned by one of the killers? No DNA on the numerous bindings, Sue's gags, her clothing, or the boy's clothing? Evidence has to be properly preserved and getting a DNA profile isn't as easy as 1,2,3, but it seems very unusual that there is nothing in evidence that would give a good enough profile to reach a conclusion of who it was that left that DNA on the item.
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Re: Posed or not

Postby Chichibcc » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:24 pm

Deborah wrote:Speaking of DNA, I contacted Bill Elliot at PCSO and I told him that Vickie, Bo's daughter was willing to give DNA for testing. Bill said that after discussing the case with whomever, the DNA was not needed at this time, but maybe in the future. Make sense out of that! I asked Bill why, and he would not give me a direct answer.


Unfortunately, I can't say I'm all that surprised...so very typical of PCSO. :roll:

They like to put on this public "front" that they're trying to do so much do solve the case, and then "clam-up" at even the slightest chance of help or leads. They are two-faced beyond belief.
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Re: Posed or not

Postby Ausgirl » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:54 pm

Bringing the thread back on topic for a moment..

A couple more thoughts:

KK, when it comes to it, a scenario by which Johnny would be hanging with his best friend, on his way out for the evening and putting shorts under his tracks clearly marked as belonging to his sister, because he was in a hurry to go and wasn't looking at whose shorts were whose, is every bit as speculative as a killer wanting to humiliate Johnny in some sly way - like having him found wearing a girl's item of clothing under his tracks. It could have been set up as another 'shocking discovery' - like the one revealed when the blanket was lifted.

The killer went to the trouble of moving the bodies, the trouble of beating and binding them after death - going to the trouble of making sure of a little extra humiliation for the victims was not, IMO, beyond this person.
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Re: Posed or not

Postby quincygirl » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:20 am

This has me wondering if all the posing was meant for who might discover the bodies, or see them, some sort of message. Would Marty and Bo know that Sheila was going to discover the bodies? Or would they think Loon would (when Johnny came running home in horror). I can see this being a nice message to Loon...just a thought.
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Re: Posed or not

Postby Ausgirl » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:12 am

I have spent some time pondering that, QG. In light of the "I got her, I'll get you the same way" threat Marty threw at Wade in jail..

I was reading over those love letters Marty wrote her - and it really struck me just how often he mentions the concept of 'payment' in those. As if he'd been tallying up all the 'sacrifices' he made for her, against the day he may have to call those 'debts' in.. manipulate his way his back with guilt and obligations.

But notice - in her prior attempts to lose Marty, he'd inevitably tracked her down and bullied her into taking him back. The last time however - he was not the one holding the power.

This is pretty obvious in the amount of wheedling and begging he did, with the usual threats only emerging once it was plain that playing nice guy wasn't working. Yet it seems pathetic and desperate - Loon wasn't afraid of him anymore. Right after those murders, she took up Marty's good buddy Wade, then boinked Blaine and moved right along to the married Mister Lockwood downstairs when Wade's usefulness came to an end. And she didn't run this time, at least nowhere Marty didn't know about from moment dot - she stuck around Quincy after that and is still in the area to this day. No more running for Mariloon...

I wonder what prompted this sudden bout of backbone.

If that was me, and I was calling up my good friends for help in getting free of a man I suspected was capable of the murders in cabin 28, as Marilyn claimed at the time -- I would not park myself in a house where that same man was clearly welcome in the door while I was there, and then openly take up with his former buddy and expect to stay in good shape.

The fear angle was sheer bullshit. Loon had absolutely nothing to fear from Marty any more, and he knew it.

My question here is - just how far would a woman like Marilyn go to engineer the kind of 'insurance' necessary to finally get an obsessive, violent (...and financially less than viable...) sociopathic tweeker off her back?

So - back to the topic.. I have my doubts that it was a message to Marilyn, though I of course can't discount it as a possibility. Just - she seems to be the one who benefited most from the murders, which paved a way out of Marty's life for her like maybe nothing else could have (except, you know.. growing a spine and a functioning moral compass).
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Re: Posed or not

Postby Eastern » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:19 pm

Ausgirl said:
<<The fear angle was sheer bullshit. Loon had absolutely nothing to fear from Marty any more, and he knew it.

My question here is - just how far would a woman like Marilyn go to engineer the kind of 'insurance' necessary to finally get an obsessive, violent (...and financially less than viable...) sociopathic tweeker off her back?

So - back to the topic.. I have my doubts that it was a message to Marilyn, though I of course can't discount it as a possibility. Just - she seems to be the one who benefited most from the murders, which paved a way out of Marty's life for her like maybe nothing else could have (except, you know.. growing a spine and a functioning moral compass).>>

People take this as me defending Mariloon when I say it, but it's not in the least defending her for being what appears to be sociopathic, an opportunist, and a horrible mother.

There was a very distinct and usual pattern to show that despite Mariloon being a nasty person, Marty was abusive and followed typical abuse patterns. That was backed up by others and not just Loon claiming he was. The vast majority of people being abused will not leave the abuser until it happens over and over again and escalates to something horrendous. They tell themselves things like, "He abuses me, but I don't think he'd really kill me or anyone else," - they also listen to the abuser telling them that he/she wouldn't really hurt them that badly, because he loves her/him and just got mad and is sorry and isn't that bad. The abused doubts their own perception of what happened.

We don't know what Justin told Mariloon happened that night, but it looks like Loon suspected Marty and Bo, but wasn't certain immediately. That's normal considering the situation that she was doubting herself. It seems ludicrous to us that she would allow him to stay at the Meeks with her if she suspected him, but that is a normal response. He was welcome at the Meeks' home that night and I bet the Meeks' at the time had doubts about whether Marty had really killed the Sharps and Dana. Mrs. Meeks changed her mind apparently when Marty acted bizarre that night and he was no longer welcome.

Once Loon knew she had backup, support, and a place to stay, she left him for good. That's exactly what happens in abuse situations. We want abused women, men, and children for that matter, to have the gumption to do it on their own, but they rarely do until they have help. It wasn't much different than what Sue did with James - she stayed and put up with his abuse until he kicked her out. Then she went back with him and it happened again. Both Sue and Loon were following expected patterns that you almost always see in abuse situations and they both got hooked up in another bad relationship after leaving their spouse - almost always happens.

I think Marilyn is a sorry excuse for a person, but I don't see anything truly suspect in her actions when leaving Marty. What I see, is a very predictable and usual pattern of someone in an abusive relationship with an abuser. It's well researched, documented, and a "normal" pattern for the abused. However, that doesn't excuse her for anything - it just explains her actions and her actions when leaving Marty don't show something more nefarious.

On a side note - Marty's excuse for killing Sue (as told to his therapist) and his being in a rage in a previous therapy session at a friend of Loon's who was interfering in his marriage, is also very typical of a sociopathic abuser. It seems like an unbelievable excuse to kill, but it is a good enough excuse for motive to murder in the mind of the sociopathic abuser and killer - she made him do it. The motive could very well be as simple as that, no matter how unbelievable it seems to us.
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Re: Posed or not

Postby Princess » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:50 pm

For anybody who may not understand abused women.

Domestic violence
Why do women stay? Why don't they leave?

The information below is adapted from the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence.

It's not uncommon to hear "Why do women stay in abusive relationships?" or "Why don't they leave?" These types of questions, although common, have a tendency—whether unintentional or not—to blame victims and to suggest they enjoy or thrive on being abused. If they didn't enjoy being ill-treated, they would leave, right? Obviously, if they choose to stay, they must have low self-esteem, right?

No. These attitudes are common myths about victims of domestic violence. The fact is that reasons for staying are far more complex than a blanket statement about a victim's character or strength of will.

In some cases, women may seem to "want" to be beaten. For those who come from dysfunctional families—families in which they were routinely beaten and emotionally abused as children—they know no other patterns of behavior and have learned to expect frequent incidents of violence. For such women, the anxiety of waiting for the next outburst of violence is often more stressful and agonizing than the violence itself. They hate not knowing when they will next be hit, kicked, punched, burned, bitten, or stabbed, and they would rather "get it over with" than not know when they will next be abused.

Often, it is dangerous for a woman to leave an abusive relationship. If her abuser is economically abusive (see The Types of Abuse) and withholds all family money from her, leaving can lead to additional hardships. Leaving could mean living in fear of being stalked, fear of losing custody of any minor children (parental abduction is not uncommon), losing financial support, and experiencing harassment at work.

Do not underestimate the effects of domestic violence on its victims. Abused women experience isolation, shame, embarrassment, and humiliation. Women may not immediately leave an abusive relationship because:

They fear their abusers will become more violent—perhaps fatal—stalking them if they leave.
Friends and family may not support their decision to leave.
They fear being a single parent with little money.
There are periods of calm, nurturing and love between incidents of violence (see The Cycle of Abuse).
They may be unaware of sources of advocacy and support.
They may be unaware of shelters and other resources that offer safety and support.
The reasons women stay in abusive relationships typically fall into three categories.

Lack of resources

Most abused women have at least one minor child.
Many abused women are not employed outside the home.
Many abused women don't have property that is solely theirs.
In many cases, abusers have cut off access to cash or bank accounts.
Most abused women fear losing joint assets and custody of their children.
Abused women fear a lower standard of living for themselves and their children.
Responses by services and authorities


Often, clergy and social workers are trained to "save the family" rather than to stop violence.
Police often treat incidents of domestic violence as mere "disputes" rather than as serious crimes in which one person is physically assaulting another.
Police may try to discourage women from pressing criminal charges.
Attorneys are often reluctant to prosecute cases. Justices rarely assign the maximum sentence or fine possible.
Restraining orders and peace bonds (see Stalking) do little to prevent abusers from repeating their violent patterns of behavior. Sadly, there are too few shelters to keep women safe.
Traditional thinking

Many women don't view divorce as a viable alternative.
Many abused women don't accept the notion of single parenting. They believe a bad father (or in the case of a lesbian relationship, a bad partner) is better than none at all.
Many women are conditioned to believe they are responsible for making their marriage or relationship work; that if the relationship fails, they have failed as women. Society has often taught these women that their worth is measured by their ability to get and keep a man.
Many abused women feel isolated from their families and from society. Isolation is either the result of the abuser's possessiveness or jealousy, or it may be an attempt on the part of the victim to hide signs of abuse from the outside world. Either way, such isolation leads many victims to feel they have nowhere to turn.
Many victims externalize or rationalize the reasons for their abuser's behavior, casting blame of circumstances such as stress, financial hardship, job stress, chemical dependency, etc.
Between violent episodes, there are periods of calm during which the abuser is charming, nurturing, and caring. Those traits which initially attracted him/her to his/her victim resurface and the victim sees her abuser as a loving person, thereby reinforcing her decision to stay. (See The Cycle of Abuse.)
A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.
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Re: Posed or not

Postby SammieJo » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:20 pm

Eastern wrote:Ausgirl said:
My question here is - just how far would a woman like Marilyn go to engineer the kind of 'insurance' necessary to finally get an obsessive, violent (...and financially less than viable...) sociopathic tweeker off her back?
.[/color]



What do you mean? Loon possibly instigated the murders?

I've wondered that before, it would certainly explain lack of obvious motive... Maybe Looneytune was jealous of Sue, Sue escaped her abuser where Loon couldn't/ wouldn't (whatever you prefer to believe) Sue was also making on her own with 5 kids. Maybe Sue didn't join in on Looney's pity party over being stuck with Marty & told her to just get on with it & leave & never look back " I did it with 5 kids, if I can do it, you can do it too" kind of attitude.

I wouldn't put it past someone like Loon to blow smoke up Marty's ass just to get him pissed at Sue- he did tell his therapist that Sue was breaking up his marrige. << If this is the case it probably wasn't anything even personal against Sue, just a case of an attention whore stirring the pot & trying to get a rise out of Marty....Maybe she didn't expect it to go that far though...
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Re: Posed or not

Postby Ausgirl » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:19 am

I have to say -- I totally understand the abusive relationship thing. Yup, I sure do.

And that's precisely why I find a deal of Marilyn's choices and behaviours post-murders to be somewhat odd. And at the same time, to make a disturbing kind of sense. What I mean by this is:

- Yes, she was wrapped up in an abusive relationship. Yes, she did have small kids (and presumably a skerrick of maternal instinct, despite her poor parenting skills). And yes, Marty was a violent and abusive man, this was long established well before the murders. Marilyn had tried and tried to get away from him, filed police reports, ran off to stay with friends. And yet-- there was Marty, chasing right behind to drag his little woman back home with him again, where I am sure he would have believed she literally 'belonged'.

Marilyn makes no secret that this is exactly how Marty behaved, once the 'honeymoon' was over. And yeah, I see her as a classic abused wife case, but I also see that element in this all, where part of her felt this is what she wanted. It's also pretty plain in reading her comments that she was proud to be owned that way - women with little self esteem are also victims to their own crap life choices when it comes to staying around a bad husband, and that's a fact.

Anyway, as I said, all this is precisely why I have more than once eyeballed her as possibly instigating the crime.

She'd tried going to the police, tried running, tried forcing him into counselling... by 1981 and for some time prior, Marilyn, whatever else she was, had crossed a line somewhere as far as what she was going to put up with goes.

And this charming man who fit right into her personal life dramas and expectations, for good and bad, was rapidly losing the plot, becoming more dangerous as time passed. And not only that, he had some dangerous friends.

Precisely because she -was- stuck in an abusive relationship with a violent and very persistent man, and had little money (as far as we know) and kids, I don't think it's stretch to see Marilyn as somewhat beyond desperate to make sure she could not only leave Marty - who was good at hunting her down - but that he would be disinclined to hang around causing trouble for her later.

She had Wade to act as 'hero', but Wade was not in Marty's class as far as violent dispositions go. Maybe Bo was... but Wade? Nah.

And I am fairly sure there's no doubt in anyone's mind that Marilyn was herself a masterful manipulator. So it isn't hard, IMO, to see her engineering a very neat exit for herself (and kids, I am sure as an afterthought..). Wade was a tool - in all senses of the word - and once he had served his function, she flicked him for a man who was older, tougher, and perhaps knew people even more dangerous than Martin Smartt - Lockwood's teenaged daughter would date Robert Silveria. And Marilyn, being Marilyn.. well, read the posts she made about him. Robert the railroad hitman was one heck of a sweet guy, making pretty pictures for his girl..she's cooing over a convicted serial killer.

But back to the murders. The first place this apparently -terrified- defenseless and abused woman ran after the slaughter at cabin 28 was NOT out of the state, to a safe-house, or anywhere Marty could not reach her. She ran seven miles, directly to the Meeks house, where Marty was clearly still free to come and go.. for the moment. Until Jim Meeks sat on the porch with a shotgun, anyway.

But this didn't deter Marty. Nothing would, and Marilyn knew it. He wasn't scared of the cops, and Jim Meeks would not be sitting on that porch forever. But lo and behold, not long after this here's Marty penning sad love letters from Walla Walla, once it became very clear to him that he had no choice in the matter. Here's Marty back in town, in jail and screaming at Wade Meeks - not about his wife, but about some missing dope. Marty wasn't scared of the Meeks, or the cops.. but maybe he was convinced to leave Marilyn alone by some other means. Like, say -- a shitload of incriminating evidence regarding a quad murder, enough to earn him a death sentence with. An eye witness who at any moment might spill the truth. Maybe she had both of those things up her sleeve, when Marty next came calling.

The ball was clearly in Marilyn's court now -- and my question is "how'd it get there?"

Ponder the nature of Marty, and imagine what it may have taken to get a man like that to give up on Marilyn once and for all.
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Re: Posed or not

Postby Chichibcc » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:57 am

Ausgirl wrote:Marilyn makes no secret that this is exactly how Marty behaved, once the 'honeymoon' was over. And yeah, I see her as a classic abused wife case, but I also see that element in this all, where part of her felt this is what she wanted. It's also pretty plain in reading her comments that she was proud to be owned that way - women with little self esteem are also victims to their own crap life choices when it comes to staying around a bad husband, and that's a fact.


I guess, in other words, you're trying to say that she kinda "thrived" on the drama that came with being in an abusive relationship-which I could see if "men" like Marty were all she was used to (which seems to have been the case). I doubt it was just a" coping mechanism" for her, either, given her future dating/marriage choices.

Ausgirl wrote:Wade was a tool - in all senses of the word - and once he had served his function, she flicked him for a man who was older, tougher, and perhaps knew people even more dangerous than Martin Smartt - Lockwood's teenaged daughter would date Robert Silveria. And Marilyn, being Marilyn.. well, read the posts she made about him. Robert the railroad hitman was one heck of a sweet guy, making pretty pictures for his girl..she's cooing over a convicted serial killer.


It appears she learned NOTHING from what she went through with Marty, which is pretty disturbing to say the least, which indicates she really does like this kind of "living." Sad.
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Re: Posed or not

Postby krazykat » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:26 pm

As I've said before my problem with Marilyn, Marty, Bo, Dee Lake, Wade Meeks,etc, the CA DOJ and the PCSD being complacent in this murder is that it's way too many people. There's more people conspiring to either commit or cover up the Keddie murders than there were in Dealy Plaza in 1963. Somebody would have talked by now.
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Re: Posed or not

Postby dmac » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:48 pm

A few things- consider Loon's supposed attempts to get away from Marty in the past. Marty normally threatened and cajoled and sweet-talked to get her back, whatever it took. Time and again she went back to him. Yet this time, he loses out YET HE PULLS LITTLE FROM HIS ARSENAL. His desperate pleas for love, his truthful telling of killing for love (from his letters to her, 'the Klamath Kollektion') go unanswered. He calls others, threatening another mass murder- this time of Loons Loves & Associates (Meeks family? Remember when Marty was hanging across the street from Meeks' home and gave Richard the "I'm gonna slit your throat" hand signal?) yet never returns to Keddie or Quincy. Why? He and Bo are murderers on the run, that's why.

As for collusion- wrong thread but okay. Marty and Bo had their own circle of collusion, clear as a bell. PCSO had its own, and DOJ had their own. Do you think that PCSO is unfamiliar with covering up scandal and corruption? Have you read any of the articles we've put online? Does that happen without collusion? And same goes for the DOJ- they thrive on corruption. How do you answer the clear-cut corruption between the local sheriff's office and CA DOJ in the Queens Accident murders? And the Wackenhut murders? The logical and un-whackified aspects of the Octopus story involve all sorts of disgusting state and fed "LE" departments, local bigshots, DAs, etc. It's not imaginary.

The stupidest crap in America happens in plain sight because the people are too dumb and blind to see it.
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Re: Posed or not

Postby Eastern » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:58 pm

Ausgirl wrote:I have to say -- I totally understand the abusive relationship thing. Yup, I sure do.

And that's precisely why I find a deal of Marilyn's choices and behaviours post-murders to be somewhat odd. And at the same time, to make a disturbing kind of sense. What I mean by this is:

- Yes, she was wrapped up in an abusive relationship. Yes, she did have small kids (and presumably a skerrick of maternal instinct, despite her poor parenting skills). And yes, Marty was a violent and abusive man, this was long established well before the murders. Marilyn had tried and tried to get away from him, filed police reports, ran off to stay with friends. And yet-- there was Marty, chasing right behind to drag his little woman back home with him again, where I am sure he would have believed she literally 'belonged'.

Marilyn makes no secret that this is exactly how Marty behaved, once the 'honeymoon' was over. And yeah, I see her as a classic abused wife case, but I also see that element in this all, where part of her felt this is what she wanted. It's also pretty plain in reading her comments that she was proud to be owned that way - women with little self esteem are also victims to their own crap life choices when it comes to staying around a bad husband, and that's a fact.

Anyway, as I said, all this is precisely why I have more than once eyeballed her as possibly instigating the crime.

She'd tried going to the police, tried running, tried forcing him into counselling... by 1981 and for some time prior, Marilyn, whatever else she was, had crossed a line somewhere as far as what she was going to put up with goes.

And this charming man who fit right into her personal life dramas and expectations, for good and bad, was rapidly losing the plot, becoming more dangerous as time passed. And not only that, he had some dangerous friends.

Precisely because she -was- stuck in an abusive relationship with a violent and very persistent man, and had little money (as far as we know) and kids, I don't think it's stretch to see Marilyn as somewhat beyond desperate to make sure she could not only leave Marty - who was good at hunting her down - but that he would be disinclined to hang around causing trouble for her later.

She had Wade to act as 'hero', but Wade was not in Marty's class as far as violent dispositions go. Maybe Bo was... but Wade? Nah.

And I am fairly sure there's no doubt in anyone's mind that Marilyn was herself a masterful manipulator. So it isn't hard, IMO, to see her engineering a very neat exit for herself (and kids, I am sure as an afterthought..). Wade was a tool - in all senses of the word - and once he had served his function, she flicked him for a man who was older, tougher, and perhaps knew people even more dangerous than Martin Smartt - Lockwood's teenaged daughter would date Robert Silveria. And Marilyn, being Marilyn.. well, read the posts she made about him. Robert the railroad hitman was one heck of a sweet guy, making pretty pictures for his girl..she's cooing over a convicted serial killer.

But back to the murders. The first place this apparently -terrified- defenseless and abused woman ran after the slaughter at cabin 28 was NOT out of the state, to a safe-house, or anywhere Marty could not reach her. She ran seven miles, directly to the Meeks house, where Marty was clearly still free to come and go.. for the moment. Until Jim Meeks sat on the porch with a shotgun, anyway.

But this didn't deter Marty. Nothing would, and Marilyn knew it. He wasn't scared of the cops, and Jim Meeks would not be sitting on that porch forever. But lo and behold, not long after this here's Marty penning sad love letters from Walla Walla, once it became very clear to him that he had no choice in the matter. Here's Marty back in town, in jail and screaming at Wade Meeks - not about his wife, but about some missing dope. Marty wasn't scared of the Meeks, or the cops.. but maybe he was convinced to leave Marilyn alone by some other means. Like, say -- a shitload of incriminating evidence regarding a quad murder, enough to earn him a death sentence with. An eye witness who at any moment might spill the truth. Maybe she had both of those things up her sleeve, when Marty next came calling.

The ball was clearly in Marilyn's court now -- and my question is "how'd it get there?"

Ponder the nature of Marty, and imagine what it may have taken to get a man like that to give up on Marilyn once and for all.


Yep, people tend to be more comfortable with what is familiar. Loon is attracted to "bad boys" and that is deeply entrenched in her psyche and will be with her for the rest of her life most likely.

I do think Mariloon instigated Marty against Sue, but I doubt it was with the intent to get him to kill her so that she could leave him for good and get the support she needed to do so. She didn't need to - he was already on the fast train to Killsville without her needing to nefariously plant a reason for him to murder.

Do you really think Marty would have put up with being a patsy if Loon had set him up? I don't. I think he would have raked her over the coals and implicated her directly in the murders. I also think she could have and would have said a lot more to LE implicating him if she had tried to get him to kill.

There was already the history of him threatening people who helped her (see dmac's post about his history of threats) and he was losing his control over Loon and he knew it - he was desperate. There was another woman prior to Sue evidently, who had helped Loon when she'd leave him after a fight. That woman had supposedly moved from Keddie because she feared Marty. Sue dared to help Mariloon and encourage her to leave him and she was the more current target of his escalating rage over his losing his control over Loon.

No doubt Loon threw it in his face that Sue helped her and she probably let him know that Sue said Marty was a dirtbag like her own husband that she was divorcing, and told her to leave him. Who of us haven't done something like that to back up our argument? She further instigated it by lying and saying she asked Sue to go the bar that night with them to celebrate Marty's birthday (he was supposedly saying it was his birthday and there are records that have April 11 as his birthdate) and that Sue declined. That was yet another thing for Marty to add to his long list of reasons to hate Sue - she thought she was too good for them in his mind.

I think it's telling that he claimed in his confession that Sue was interfering in his marriage. It's also telling that he was in a rage in a previous session about a friend of Loon's who was interfering in his marriage. That as a motive seems ludicrous to normal people, but it's spot on for a sociopath to use as a reason (in their mind) to kill. It also fits well into the preceding months of his problems with Loon, i.e., it was true and Loon didn't need to get him to intentionally kill.

We don't like Loon, but I just don't see anything yet that shows that she did anything with the intent to get him to kill so that she could leave him more easily and get the support to do so.
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Re: Posed or not

Postby Ausgirl » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:03 am

I just don't see anything yet that shows that she did anything with the intent to get him to kill

This is not what I was saying. What I am saying is that I do think Marilyn manipulated Marty into causing trouble for the residents of cabin 28. This had, says Marty's angsting about the "bitch", etc, been building for quite a while, perhaps on several levels. As had Marilyn's desperation to get out of that marriage intact and hassle-free. How long was it before she filed for divorce? About half an hour? She was ready to leave Marty the moment Justin came through the door that morning, and that's just what she did.

What I am really NOT sure of is precisely how aware she may have been of how far Marty would take things. I find the subtle blame and deflection games she openly plays with people on the forums very telling, however.

And it isn't like Marty took off into the sunset right after the murders. He hung around (for how many days?) causing trouble outside the Meeks home, returned to Plumas shortly thereafter and got himself thrown in jail. He wrote letters in which he plainly gave his location away. Sorry, but I just do not see Marty as being "on the run". Because he really wasn't "running" very far or very fast at all, was he? More like, he spent a good deal of effort in painting a very large target on his own back.

The one thing he doesn't do is manage to drag Marilyn back again, as he had so many times before and clearly wanted to this time as well. And while she had the Meeks family backing her up, the Meeks boys were hardly anyone Marty would be dead scared of. Nor were the police - or why not skedaddle properly, why return to Plumas at all - and then suddenly give up on her, send sad letters and empty threats from afar instead? I guess I am just wondering if there was some other reason Marty finally gave up on Marilyn, though he'd "paid" for her and his mind, she was bought and paid for property and still owed him big time. And whether that may have involved threats of a pile of potential trouble if he didn't.

Marilyn didn't run either, from a man who ostensibly just horribly slaughtered four people. She stuck around the area and carried on, business as usual. Marilyn did not go into hiding - I don't think she had anything to fear from Marty the violent, obsessive mass murderer at all.

It's not a stretch to imagine her holding hard evidence over him in order to keep Marty at arm's length forever. Since the opportunity had come up, and all..

As to them genially stopping past to see if Sue wanted to go out -- well, did Marty hate Sue like spit, or didn't he? I'd think "that bitch" who apparently posed such a threat to his marriage. who he hated enough to want to kill, would be the last person he'd want along. I can't see him both hating Sue enough to rant about her to his therapist like maniac for hours on end, then being bitterly disappointed that she wouldn't come out for a beer.

IF "that bitch" was actually Sue, and IF Loon, Bo & Marty did actually stop by to ask her out (which I have long eyeballed suspiciously as being either pure or diluted BS, and still do) - I am betting the farm it was NOT Marty's idea.

Things are still not quite adding up, and while it eally is tempting to want to tie neat bows in what are still IMO some very loose ends I don't feel I can do so yet, and maybe never will be able to. But it's all worth speculating on.

Ack, now I'm way off topic. Posed or not? There's so many elements which point to posing that it's hard to dismiss the possibility.

And if the bodies were posed, rather than merely staged - could the blanket over Sue be a part of that - or not?
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Re: Posed or not

Postby dmac » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:26 pm

Dana was laid into position post-mortem and his head bashed in with W4, resulting in his head barely being on the cushion. It's NOT posing. If you want to make a case that bodies were posed for humiliation (*what other posing is there?), you'd better start from scratch because nobody's mentioned if Sue went to bed bareback or if her panties were in her mouth or anywhere else. This whole thread is fine and dandy, but please try to put a few facts in with the spec and end up somewhere that shows it even matters to proving what happened. Anybody can speculate on the number of strands in the coils comprising the wires around Sue's wrists, but it doesn't help solve a damned thing, does it?

Staging: The killers moved bodies around to distract attention from themselves. Posing is a trait normally exclusive to serials. If you want to make this about a serial killing, work it. Posing is the least of your concerns in that arena, and I don't think the posing argument has any merit to begin with. Nothing here is about facts.

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Re: Posed or not

Postby krazykat » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:09 pm

meankitty wrote: For a perp to cover her up is like they were 'undoing' the posing.


As you pointed out yourself Justin could have covered her, or Tina, so it may not have been the killer/killers who covered Sue.

However in two of the cases where bodies where found in the North Valley's in Reno near Bordertown the bodies were covered and posed. As recently as a couple of years ago Brianna Denison was covered and posed. Bonnie Ann Neumann found in Feather Falls was wrapped in a bedspread. Just a name a few covering incidents in the area.

I doubt that covering the victim is ever used to humilitate them. My guess is if this was done by the killer/killers then it was meant to be used in a peekaboo fashion to cause shock to whoever uncovers the victim.

I posted this in another thread but there was enough child stealing/murders going on in the 80's in the area to make these murders a possibility of a serial.

SANDRA BUTLER | June 26, 1978 /Missing from Reno-never found
TINA SHARP | April, 1981 /Missing from Keddie-body found Camp 19
KERRY LYNELLE JOHNSON | Sept 1982 /Missing from Reno-never found
ANTHONY BERNARD FRANKO | May, 1983 /Missing from Reno-never found
JENNIFER MARTIN | June, 1987 /Missing from Reno
CHARLES, and JENNIFER CHIA | October, 1989 /Missing from Reno-bodies found near Beckwourth
MONICA DASILVA | September, 1990 /Missing from Reno-body found in Lagomarsino Canyon

And that's just the ones being reported. I imagine a few more disappeared and were just thought to run away.
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