Daisy Powerline 880 Air Rifle & Sight / Adjuster Ramp

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Re: The pellet gun

Postby dcheryl83 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:57 am

Not Sure - pointed out to me that the Viacap Summary explained the findings in the lower portion of the summary. It did specify a pellet and a gun site.
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Re: The pellet gun

Postby LizzieB » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:47 am

Until now, I've put off trying to understand the pellet and ramp found at the scene. It just doesn't make sense, and as Judge Judy often says, 'If it doesn't make sense, then it's not true." That quote gave me the idea that a gun may have not been at the scene at all. There is no evidence that the ramp broke on anyone or anything in the home or that anything was shot with the pellet. With the intention to misdirect, what if M & B placed the pellet and ramp there during the staging process? Where they got it.... I don't know. But, they had plenty of time to stage, so how could they overlook the pellet and ramp? It could link them to the scene.
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Re: The pellet gun

Postby BUTTERFLYVALLEY1 » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:29 pm

It would not connect to the scene if everyone was as quiet as they all seem to have been told to be. Not if the PCSO finding out it was from a Daisy pellet gun thought it was a kids toy and nothing to think about as the house was full of boys at the time...little boys and bigger boys and yet bigger boys. It is obvious any real evidence from this murder has been totally lost or borrowed and gotten rid of or just plain wasn't gathered. With all the rug pieces, wall pieces, 3 victims at the scene to get more evidence from, and, nothing, absolutely nothing is left to be put under investigation at this modern day and age! Come on! I am so tired of hearing from LE that there is nothing left to do but we will keep the case "ACTIVE' and 'STILL UNDER INVESTIGATION" so people who know what they are doing can't come in here and solve this mess!

D has been amazing and everyone of us have read the evidence presented until we can practically receite it page by page...but somethings are still missing. Have to be...or withheld...yes, a much better scenerio. We need more facts and more scientific conclusions...and can we get a fingerprint anaysis from anything, anything will do. I know lets go look for the missing glass that could not have possibly melted in the unplugged frig! Or maybe, Doug Thomas and DeCrona could be persuaded to return the files they "borrowed" and have been so remiss about reurning before they die? A little cooperation after over 30 years is that too much to ask from the PCSO who could do a little "work" on this "ACTIVE' case that has not been even dusted off since Josh got his last pieces of evidence from them. They are sitting on a stagnated triple murder case and just hoping like heck we will all back out and go away. Well, I will not do it.

Sorry everyone, granny got carried away again. I loved that precious little piece of heaven and still love the area it sat on. :pissed_off:
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Daisy Powerline 880 Air Rifle & Sight / Adjuster Ramp

Postby dmac » Thu May 22, 2014 2:32 pm

This will be a collection of factual info on what was found. Reports, images, conflicting reports, etc., will be collected in this OP (much like how a timeline thread works), and I'll bump it when it's updated. To start off, here are the best images I have of the actual ramp found. It was next to the notebook, on top of which was the blue jacket, and near Sue's shoulder and the far end of the cushion Dana's face was on. I left fragments of Sue's shoulder and the cushion in frame simply as reference points.

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Re: The pellet gun (Daisy Powerline 880)

Postby dmac » Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:23 pm

Just an update post to put things in line. The gun used in the murders was a Daisy Powerline 880 air rifle.

DaisyPowerline880.jpg

My dad had one. Its a pump action job and quite powerful when you pump it enough times. Here's the report where they mention the model. In this report, they were checking the 880 against a similar Daisy rifle Oroville serial killer Ward Weaver II used.

830602-gun-cop-notes.jpg

Here's the image of the wound to Dana's left thigh, This wound is right between the bruise on his thigh and the bruise on his buttocks, but a few inches anterior. It's impossible to tell scale due to the crop I've given it, but it is dead-on for a pellet wound. Why it's not on the autopsy report is beyond me.

Dana_pellet.jpg

Given the size of the rifle, it's clear to me it's not a Christmas gift missing from photos, or something Johnny had which nobody remembered. I believe the Loonibi (including Dee) again points to the truth: the killers were so busy saying, "Yeah, we even had a 22 under the seat of Dee's car, we didn't use it on anybody- go look!", which is precisely as far as PCSO went. Smoke and mirrors: The killers made a lot of noise about their 22 rifle, but didn't mention their 22 pellet rifle. Not to mention, you can't fit a rifle under the bench seat of Dee's car, due to the transmission hump.
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Re: The pellet gun (Daisy Powerline 880)

Postby Ava » Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:31 am

Hammers were used to kill at this crime scene, so it stands to reason that the gun site was knocked off the gun by the swing of a hammer. Who pulled the gun? Who pulled the first hammer? Who knows? But, it was a dimly lit room for sure and a struggle......murder then silence.
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Re: The pellet gun (Daisy Powerline 880)

Postby dmac » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:22 pm

I don't see your logic, Ava, re: gun-sight and hammer. The sight is in several photos, pretty clean considering everything. No hairs or blood / flesh seen attached, which one might expect if the barrel was used as a weapon. I don't see how you could attribute it to a foul-aimed hammer, it's simply implausible.
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Re: The pellet gun (Daisy Powerline 880)

Postby Ava » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:34 pm

Is it certain that no blood evidence was attached to the gun site? It is very hard to go by crime scene photos alone and say anything for sure.
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Re: The pellet gun (Daisy Powerline 880)

Postby dmac » Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:11 am

No reports whatsoever there is (or isn't) blood or other evidence on the Daisy sight, and the photos I've provided seems to show it seems relatively clean. I find it very interesting that LE never mention anything about trace evidence ON the sight, just the sight itself.

From where it was found, one must assume the sight broke off somewhere in that front room when the rifle barrel hit something hard. It could have hit the table near the wall, the doorway into the kitchen, or any number of other surfaces. Because it was found where it was does not mean that's near where it broke off. When it detached, it must have rebounded opposite or askew from the impact area (Newton's Law of Motion), then fallen to the ground, bouncing off and redirecting according to whatever object(s) it encountered on the way. It being a tiny object with decent mass on the very end of a leveraged device, it could bounce/redirect several feet in different ways.
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Re: Daisy PowerLine 880 Air Rifle & Sight / Adjuster Ramp

Postby dmac » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:25 pm

In looking at the original note to Bradley from Stoy, there's typical misinformation but also some intriguing stuff. Ward Weaver's gun was a Revelation GC3376. The model was made by Crosman, not Daisy. Crosman sold them exclusively to Western Auto stores to be sold under their own in-store 'brand', Revelation.

Western Auto not only sold car parts, but things like bicycles and firearms. Seeing as there was a Western Auto store on the corner of Main and Crescent (70/89) in Quincy (where Johnny and Dana were seen that day, and were last seen alive a block north), it would be interesting if the sights were a match. They weren't. Here's a few shots of GC3376s, with the huge, circular sight on the end of the barrel:

Rev1a.jpg
Untitled-1.jpg
WA-sight.jpg

Something VERY interesting is LE's multiple assertions that the pellet found in the cabin is a .22 caliber. However, the .177 caliber air rifle is the standard bb/pellet gun size, while .22 airgun sales are miniscule by comparison. A .22 pellet will do a load more damage than a .177:

cals.jpg

Of the dozens of times LE claimed the pellet is a .22, here's something from FBI John Douglas' profile of the Keddie Killer(s):

    "The crime scene reflects that he did not precisely plan on killing all the victims. With exception of a .177-caliber pellet recovered at the crime scene, all of the "weapons" appear to have come from the residence"
So was it a .22 or a .177? Were two guns used, and the killers left a .22 pellet from one gun and the sight from the other .177 rifle behind? Searching the forum for the term '177' seems to answer all of it:

    "Regarding the .22 caliber pellet found at the crime scene, this was determined to be a true pellet fired from a pellet gun. The pellet is round in shape and does not appear to be obviously misshapened from striking an object, although the possibility exists that it may be slightly out of round indicating it may have struck a soft object which did not leave a hard impression on the pellet. The pellet has actually been determined to be a .177 caliber pellet."

The part about it hitting a soft object that did not put it out of round is a near-slam-dunk for the belief Dana's thigh wound came from that pellet.

Also, according to Daisy's website, the PowerLine 880 is their 'best-selling multi-pump pneumatic rifle'. People not familiar with pellet guns may not know or recall that the guns hold about 50 BBs, but you must load the pellets individually. This would account for why only one pellet was used and found. It's a pump action gun, so getting off a second shot involves reloading and pumping it about 6-10 times. This further explains how the killers used the rifle: They shot it off once, then used it as a bludgeon.

I believe all of this info again proves that the crime was PLANNED, and that the killers brought multiple weapons (gun, 2nd hammer, knives) and restraints (multiple rolls of medical tape in 1/2 inch and 1-inch widths). This constitutes a Kill Kit, if they were brought into 28 when the killers first entered. Furthermore, it strengthens the belief that Dee Lake's .22 rifle story was pure BS alibi they cooked up, since they were the ones offering the story about the rifle (as in, "yeah, we had a 22 with us, and we didn't use it when we killed them. See? Go ask Dee, it's intact! Oh, and my hammer's missing!") And why did LE continue to put out info that the caliber was the much rarer .22?

On a final note, here's Daisy's own specs for the PowerLine 880. They indicate three pumps are good for weak indoor target practice, while ten pumps are needed "to achieve maximum velocity for outdoor shooting and pest control":

Max. Muzzle Velocity: 800 fps./BB; 665 fps./pellet
Overall Length 37.6”
Caliber: .177 cal. (4.5 mm) BB or pellet
Max. Shooting Distance: 291 yards
Capacity: 50 shot BB. Single shot/pellet
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Re: Daisy Powerline 880 Air Rifle & Sight / Adjuster Ramp

Postby dmac » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:25 am

In seeing more details on the type of weapon the pellet came from, we should look at the autopsies with fresh eyes, particularly some of the 'stellate wounds' mentioned in the autopsies. Magesta was also recently discussing stellate wounds, which got me looking at this one in particular:

    "The left scalp, at a distance of approximately an inch and a half above the central portion of the left ear, shows a stellate irregularly outlined zone of laceration, overall measuring 2-l/2 x l-l/4 inches in greatest dimension. This extends down to skull bone."
It will take some further research, but a wound like that doesn't reasonably come from any of the currently-known weapons used by the killers (including the W4 table leg) other than the butt of the pellet rifle. It may be a perfect match with the butt of the rifle being used as a bludgeon.
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Re: Daisy Powerline 880 Air Rifle & Sight / Adjuster Ramp

Postby somanyquestions » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:54 am

Is Dana the only one of the victims with such a wound? Also, please forgive my ignorance, but after a pellet is shot is it round?
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Re: Daisy Powerline 880 Air Rifle & Sight / Adjuster Ramp

Postby Princess » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:21 am

Dana is the only one that we could identify with a pellet wound. Now as far as calling it a round, you could. I believe that is just a slang word.
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Re: Daisy Powerline 880 Air Rifle & Sight / Adjuster Ramp

Postby somanyquestions » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:27 am

I should have worded my question differently perhaps. The photo of the two pellet gun *bullets* shows they are not *round* in shape. I am asking if after a pellet is fired, does its shape change...is it round?
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Re: Daisy Powerline 880 Air Rifle & Sight / Adjuster Ramp

Postby Princess » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:10 pm

Good I am glad you clarified that because the way it was worded was sorta kind of out there. Anyway, google is a real good search engine as with many others you can use to answer this question.

Here is Link: https://www.google.com/search?q=177+pel ... 83&dpr=0.9
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Re: Daisy Powerline 880 Air Rifle & Sight / Adjuster Ramp

Postby dmac » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:31 am

Dana's autopsy report never mentions the wound to his thigh. I'm convinced it's a wound, but it bothers me (I'm often wrong). If the pellet does not pierce the skin, wouldn't the skin bounce back and even create a welt? This wound seems to have relief inward from his skin surface. The photo was taken on the morgue slab, so if that photo is a pellet wound maybe he was already dead when it hit. Why stage the pellet from a gun you didn't want anyone to know about?

For anyone reading the small print, I'm surprised at every turn how poorly the killers staged this.
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Re: Daisy Powerline 880 Air Rifle & Sight / Adjuster Ramp

Postby somanyquestions » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:57 pm

Could that mark or injury have been caused by a cattle prod?
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Re: Daisy Powerline 880 Air Rifle & Sight / Adjuster Ramp

Postby dmac » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:35 pm

You mean the pellet wound? Nope. Dana was wearing blue corduroy pants, pretty thick material. Cattle prods don't leave marks when applied to bare human skin, much less indentations. The cattle prods common to the market back then were pretty weak, not like the crap used commercially today by industrial arseholes, much less the tech LE use to legally murder unarmed people daily in America. I had cattle back then, and commercially-bought prods held a tube full of D cells, 6-8 of them, and the shock that came from them was similar to a domestic electric fence put around a garden or the horse pen.

On top of that, cattle prods have two prods (pos and neg); Dana had one pellet wound.

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Re: Daisy Powerline 880 Air Rifle & Sight / Adjuster Ramp

Postby gumshoe » Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:42 am

Regarding the pellet gun use, I noticed on Sue's autopsy report drawings, the examiner notes a 1/8" round wound on her torso. I believe it noted that this wound was 2" below and an inch or so to the left (toward the midline) from the large laceration on the lower part of her left breat. Could this be from aa .177 pellet?
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Re: Daisy Powerline 880 Air Rifle & Sight / Adjuster Ramp

Postby dmac » Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:39 pm

I may be able to better answer your post in a couple days, but I need to back-burner it for the moment. Please remind me if I forget.

There's still a lot to ponder in this thread: The report saying the .22 pellet was "100% definitely a .177 pellet" is from a report to the FBI, and other reports to the FBI show other LE agencies were flagrantly LYING to the FBI. Is the .177/.22 finding yet another lie?

There's also a wound on Sue's face that looks to have a distinct rectangular puncture pattern, ala the site ramp. And I'm certain there are other wounds to all three bodies we might, with untrained eyes and not the best source photos (if we had them) construe as plausible pellet wounds.

Which takes us right back to the use of the word, "pellet". The report to the FBI claims the "pellet" to be round and 'true' (meaning no visible distortions, which occur when pellets/bullets impact objects at high velocity).

Where and when I grew up using my dad's 880 (I'm Johnny's age, had he lived), the pellets most easily available were flat-tipped or even concave, not rounded tips. When LE discuss bullets and projectiles, when they speak of "round" I'm used to it meaning the rounded tip, not the fact it's a tubular object.

Some pellets had a rounded tip, but no PELLET is "round" like a BB. Plus, pellets are single-load in guns because of their oddball shapes. So little of the wording about the gun, the "pellet", add up. The report goes into NO description of the type of 'pellet' found, and they are myriad:

Air-gun-pellets.jpg

Seems to me the specific type and shape of pellet would be known by LE and used often in documents. Seems to me LE would even have code/parlance for something as common in their line of work as PROJECTILE AMMUNITION TYPES. Yet LE, instead, claim the pellet is 22, 177, 22, 22, 177, 177, 22, 177, 177. A true and round pellet. That's the best we get? If they'd properly described the shape, size, type of pellet, then they'd have a better shot at believably saying "no victim was shot". So far, that claim- that the pellet struck nobody- is about as believable as "LE did not cover up these murders".
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