Justin

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Postby Night Rider » Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:33 pm

Islander, your last two posts above are about the best posts ever written by anyone in connection with this case. I wish more people could get that analytical.

You are pointing out the problems with this case. For every suggestion ever made, someone has always asked "Why?" Beginning with the original crime itself.

I think it is time to "go back to the basics." To me that means beginning with the movements of every victim, and those in close proximity to them. Beginning with the prior 24 hours, then expanding to the prior week.

We all know that there is someone who may still be in the area who knows the real truth. Once every lie is exposed for what it is, then we will get somewhere. It is my opinion that the real names of the killers has never been mentioned in public.
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Justin

Postby campcricklewood » Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:15 am

What if the killer's were say just two men who approached Sue about having a threesome with them and she was really disgusted by this and they were locals and found out about her family and where she lived and just tried to pay her a visit.

Maybe they wanted to say sorry or ask her friendly again but this time they didn't wanna take no for an answer. Then John and Dana show up.

I think the reason why they didn't search the whole house is they were just concerned with Sue and anyone else that got involved. If they can tie a couple people up, two teens and a mum thats not hard but what would they do with a room full of kids when this isn't even about them, they just felt violently rejected by Sue and probably taking Tina was a last minute thing they didn't have planned.
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Re: Justin

Postby dcheryl83 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:56 pm

campcricklewood wrote:What if the killer's were say just two men who approached Sue about having a threesome with them and she was really disgusted by this and they were locals and found out about her family and where she lived and just tried to pay her a visit.
.


You can't be serious? Where the hell did you pull that scenario from????
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Postby meankitty » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:28 pm

I was thinking if the killers knew Sue enough, they should have known about her kids. They had no problems taking Tina, why not Justin and Ricky? They at least were old enough to talk to the cops. (and did)
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Postby duderanch18237 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:33 pm

Hey all, I've been lurking these message boards for a few years now... the whole story has always had me intrigued and after hearing about this horrible event I also wanted the perpetrators brought to justice.

I guess I'll jump in right away (and I don't know nearly as much on this case as many of you do obviously).

Like many of you, I don't believe much of Justin's story, and it also is VERY coincidental he was Martin Smartt's stepson. That being said, it does make perfect sense he was not hrt at the crime, and if his step father was as abusive as I've heard, I guess he'd have a good reason for being scared to say anything. However, the police never seemed to catch on to this fact, and if that polygraphed man was indeed Smartt, it is odd that he got away with it (as all signs appear to point to him now).

Martin Smartt is now dead and has been for some time. As is his suspected housemate accomplice who i apologize for profusely because I cannot remember his name.

Could police actually be this incompetent? Or were they covering up for Smartt, and why? I've tried to find out about this guy's line of work and I can't find anything. Maybe someone knows alot more here about him. Could Smartt have been SO important to some higher ups god knows where that everything was swept under the carpet? Or maybe if he was charged, people would dig into his past and find something the authorities wouldn't want the general population to know?

Maybe I'm grasping at straws, but it's at least plausible. Hell, if there are so many intelligent people on these boards saying genuinely smart insights regarding the case, why couldn't certified professionals solve it?
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Justin

Postby campcricklewood » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:03 am

Hi dcheryl83, yeah I'm sorry, I guess i'm well aware of how stupid the idea might sound too but it was simply a 'what if' based around rumor's that were told at the time. Like I was making a scenario up from say two men who believed the unfounded rumor's that Sue was a prostitute and they possibly approached her about having sex with them for money or what ever.
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Postby dcheryl83 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:18 am

Didn't mean to be an ass. Thanks for responding and being so kind. I just hate that the victims life styles always get dissected and they aren't around to defend themselves. I didn't mean to take it out on you.

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Postby dcheryl83 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:24 am

duderanch18237 wrote:Like many of you, I don't believe much of Justin's story, and it also is VERY coincidental he was Martin Smartt's stepson. That being said, it does make perfect sense he was not hrt at the crime, and if his step to him now).

Maybe I'm grasping at straws, but it's at least plausible. Hell, if there are so many intelligent people on these boards saying genuinely smart insights regarding the case, why couldn't certified professionals solve it?



Hey Dude. The more I read the less I believe in Justins story as well. I don't know who was in the room with him to witness his hypnosis but if the cops were involved in a cover up maybe THEY fed him the story he told?
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Postby campcricklewood » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:05 am

It's okay I can fully understand how such themes could be taken the wrong way, everybody gets to say and think what ever they please about these people now they're dead and they certainly can't defend themselves and you can't help but feel for them and their grown loved ones they've missed out seeing all this time.

Like its great that everybody cares and doesn't wanna see them get hurt in anyway.
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Postby dcheryl83 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:47 am

Just went back and looked at Justins Videos on Cabin28. He remembers things that night that happened before the murders - the next morning - and when he was hypnotized.

Everything he has to say about the crime and the actual hypnosis starts with "What I've been told" "I was told" "Someone said" & "In speaking with detectives..."

I don't think he remembers anything. I think he just remembers what he was TOLD.
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Postby campcricklewood » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:35 am

I'd say exactly, he doesn't remember a thing.
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Postby dcheryl83 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:45 am

He wants us to think he knows something as a means to keep our attention. Even if he were paid I doubt we'd get anything new out of him.
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Postby the celt » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:55 am

I read some place that Marilyn wasnt in the best of health, could justin be waiting until his mother passes , if she is that sick, to tell what he really knows ? So not to implicate his mother? There seems to be a lot about justin then meets the eye. I think justin has a lot of secrets, not about the murders, but about his family life that may explain the way justin is today.
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Postby jhancock » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:30 am

I have often thought this, too.

If true, it adds an entirely new and bizarre element to an already bizarre case. This whole sage would make for a fascinating movie or mini-series...I only wish it were fiction and not real life.
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Postby campcricklewood » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:18 am

I'd say Justin's family has a lot of skeletons in the closet. I couldn't understand how or why he'd want to make some kind of profit off the murders if thats the main reason behind his book.

I wish there was something from beyond the grave that could just blow this whole thing wide open and bring new insight to this mystery.

On a lighter note, there's a young twenty something girl i've seen working at a clothes store near to me and she looks strangely like Tina Sharp, i'd love to get a picture so people could see what I mean but it would feel weird trying to ask her i'm sure of it.
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Postby Magnum PI » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:51 pm

Islander, you make some good points! I am new to this site so i am reading things here that i had not previously heard. I had not heard some of the thing's Justin told police. Maybe he did know the killer or killers. However i would like to point out something about fear. When i get scared i can't scream, i open my mouth but nothing comes out. Fear can cause you to do strange things, i'm not saying that's what happened. I am also wondering how a child, even at 12 could function admist that kind of chaos. Do you know if there are sketchs of the perps? If so, where are they?
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Postby jhancock » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:32 am

There are tons of photos at http://www.________.com; the composite sketches can also be seen in the first documentary.

They are also here:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=_________

MK posted them from the newspaper article.

Thanks for joining us!

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Postby Ausgirl » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:50 am

Kids who've experienced highly traumatic events often have strange, almost surreal or totally camouflaged ways of recalling what happened. It's a self-protective mechanism, a natural one which stops the child being overwhelmed and completely broken, mentally.

It's akin to post-traumatic stress disorder, and in its most powerful form leads to utter dissociation of the damaged section of self/memory from the rest of the personality (DID - Dissociative Identity Disorder) to the point of being sealed off altogether from the conscious mind. Kids are resilient and come with inbuilt self-protection measures. This is not psychiatric hocus-pocus or pseudo-science - it does exist, as a natural function of the human mind.

I know, personally, that this natural process may be taken advantage of by people who abuse children.

A mentally/emotionally traumatised kid being told emphatically "It never happened," or "It happened this way and not that way", coupled with fears of punishment/causing trouble and/or a desire for continuing approval, will say whatever they are told to say - and furthermore, they will themselves believe it. And too, sometimes it's an act of self-kindness to believe the lie and absorb it as a truth.

Though they might recall with great accuracy events immediately prior and afterward, the traumatic event itself can be literally buried in the mind under layers and layers of self-protective 'screens', on which are projected things like wishful thinking (a better outcome, what they wished they'd done), 'masks' - made-up personas - for the abusers (especially if the abuser is known to the child) and lies projected onto them by abusers, particularly when those are coupled with threats that the child will be responsible for greater harm to the people they love, by violence or just the trouble it'd all cause if the truth came out.

Add to that shame. Add to that a child's fertile imagination and capacity to 'escape' mentally from harm and pain - Justin's story and inability to recall things now, especially things that he recalled under hypnosis, doesn't seem so far-fetched to me.

And the HELL was that cop doing? If Justin -did- witness that heinous crime, as he says, he should've been handled with kid gloves and a damned sight more care than he got.

I know that traumatic memories can stay buried/masked for decades, and then "pop up" all their own, often triggered by events that relate in some way to the original trauma (the victim's own child reaching the same age the victim was at the time of abuse is pretty common, for example, or a sound, smell, taste specific to the event) usually when the victim has developed the necessary emotional strength to cope with the truth.

If the adult Justin -has- had memories return spontaneously, I can fully understand his wavering on whether to come forward or not. People are not kind about this sort of thing. It's all kind of scary, and can make a person doubt their sanity (just as an aside: DID, PTSD and the like should not be thought of as mental illnesses!) And it hurts, a lot, to spend too much time 'in' the memory.

I'm not discounting the fact that Justin -could- have lied outright, then or since. But I am saying, with utter certainty, that it's possible he did witness all of this, and that his memory is severely compromised by a series of self-protective 'masks', and that he could have spontaneously recalled portions of that night that are, in reality, very different to the original memory he had, and the story he told.

It's a terrible thing, to suddenly remember something which is not only painful in itself, but which makes a lie out of your memory, your very own memory which you've taken for a truth all your life, and makes all the stories you've ever told about the event a lie, too.

If he did witness those murders, which I do strongly suspect he did, then the child Justin was has my deepest sympathy and compassion, no matter what kind of person he is now. He'll remember things in his own time, in his own way, and speak them when and if he's able and ready.
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Postby dcheryl83 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:37 am

Very nice post Ausgirl and it makes so much sense.

I feel sure Justin has forgotten or blocked out a lot of what happened....due to time or the protective mechanism you've refered to. Most of what he knows now was probably told to him by his mother or other people. There'a a really good chance he doesn't really remember anything. May be why his book deal never happened. Who can really know for sure though?

What do you think about hypnosis? Do you think he could be hypnotized again or has the damage already been done with the first hypnoisi?
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Postby Ausgirl » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:12 am

How old was he when hypnotised? (and where can I get a transcript?)

As far as hypnosis goes - eh. It's very hit and miss, in my opinion, especially when done by people who aren't psychologists with adequate training and experience in dealing with traumatised people, and more especially traumatised kids.

Time is not necessarily a factor in memory loss/confusion. In fact, the memories may seem forgotten or confused - but somewhere in the mind, they're as fresh as the day they were made. That's why PTSD 'flashbacks' experienced by war veterans and rape/abuse survivors are so horrific - it isn't just a 'memory' - it can also be a 'reliving' of the experience, sights, sounds, smells, sensations, emotions and all.
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