Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby dmac » Mon May 21, 2012 12:28 pm

I don't think the shorts on Johnny have any relevance to staging or much else that's been brought up here. Remember the layers, from inside to outside: underwear, shorts, jogging pants. Justin said in his 'interview' with Doug that, when they were raking the yard:
Doug: What's Johnny dressed in?

Justin: Red shorts.

Doug: Red shorts. What kind of a shirt? Look at it real close, you can see it. What's he wearing above his red shorts?

Justin: Grayish white shirt.

Doug: A grayish white shirt. Ok. Is it a long sleeve or short sleeve?

Justin: Short sleeve.


So, whatever Johnny was wearing beforehand (in the cold April morning), by the warm spring afternoon he had no qualms about wearing Sheila's shorts in public. In front of Dana, his family, the neighbor kids, and whomever else passed by. Goodbye to the idea of Johnny being embarrassed at being seen in Sheila's unisex red gym shorts with the white piping. Goodbye to the shorts being part of staging. Goodbye to a lot of the spec. Hello to Justin's explanation, including:

Doug: Ok, now what happens next, when you get done cleaning the yard? Or when they get done?

Justin: Johnny gets on...

Doug: Johnny get on what?

Justin: Purple jogging suit.

Doug: Ok, gets on a purple jogging suit.

Justin: With three white stripes.

Doug: Ok.

Justin: Hitchhikes into town.

Doug: Ok, does he still have his head.

Justin: With Dana.

Doug: With Dana. Ok. Does Johnny still have his headband on?

Justin: Yeah.


So, Johnny didn't bother taking off the shorts, he just slipped the stretchy jogging pants right over those unisexy shorts. He knew he was going to be out most of the afternoon/evening, he knew it would get colder rapidly in the high Sierras, so why take off something that may help keep him warmer later? As with downstairs, what he was wearing upstairs was similarly layered. For warmth. Simple.

Also, to throw in some reasonable spec, it's doubtful Johnny was wearing just red shorts and a t-shirt when he magically appeared on the timeline in Quincy the morning of the 11th (Doug sure was interested in the clothes and the bandanas in his interview with Johnny stayed at the Meeks or somewhere else, he was likely similarly layered that morning and didn't strip down to his shorts until it was closer to the time they did yard work. And, while I do say it's pretty obvious Johnny wasn't too upset at being seen wearing Sheila's shorts, it's possible that at 13, he may have been uncomfortable at sleepovers in just his underwear. He may have been wearing Sheila's shorts since the night of the 10th, wherever he slept.

Consider that the shorts (possibly) partially back rumors that Johnny and Dana weren't planning on staying at Cabin 28 all night, that they were going to leave again.

Hope that clears up some things about the shorts- and I agree that it was overpowering an entirely separate thread, which is why I split it.
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby krazykat » Mon May 21, 2012 2:09 pm

Sorry but it doesn't clear things up for me. Justin said he put on a purple jogging suit, but it was blue. So why should I believe he got the suit color wrong but not the shorts? Quoting Justin doesn't help me ever. I keep seeing his statements quoted as gospel one thread and torn apart as lies in another. So I ignore them since if he lied once everything he said should be suspect.

I think if I was thirteen and planning on going out that evening/night I certainly wouldn't be wearing my sisters shorts just in case the opportunity arose I needed to take my pants off. Unless I was gay and looking to hook up with a guy I'd change them before I went out. What do you think they were doing all evening wandering around town? I don't think they were looking for a church meeting to go play bingo at. I think they were looking for a good time be it sex, drugs, or rock and roll.

To me I don't see it as simple. To me It's another anomaly that is trivialized because it doesn't fit any of the theories.
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby dmac » Mon May 21, 2012 2:50 pm

Marty is a bullshit liar, yet much of what he says is true- and many things he says he DIDN'T DO (or couldn't) is exactly what he did. Read his interviews and how they've been debunked, or throw it ALL OUT because that's your standard.

Bo is a bullshit liar, yet much of what he says is true- and many things he says he DIDN'T DO (or couldn't) is exactly what he did. Read his interviews and how they've been debunked, or throw it ALL OUT because that's your standard.

Marilyn is a bullshit liar, yet much of what she says is true- and many things she says she DIDN'T DO (or couldn't) is exactly what she did. Read her statements and police reports and how they've been debunked, or throw it ALL OUT because that's your standard.

Dee Lake is a bullshit liar, yet much of what he says is true- and many things he says he DIDN'T DO (or couldn't) is exactly what he did. Read his interviews and how they've been debunked, or throw it ALL OUT because that's your standard.

Doug Thomas is a bullshit liar, yet much of what he says is true- and many things he says he DIDN'T DO (or couldn't) is exactly what he did. Read his interviews and how they've been debunked, or throw it ALL OUT because that's your standard. Yeah, a few things he said were true... but most of it??! HA!

Sheila is a bullshit liar, yet much of what she says is true- even if it is a pisspoor answer meant to shut down a conversation, instead of drawing it out and finding truth. Read her statements and police reports and how they've been debunked, or throw it ALL OUT because that's your standard.

Justin is a bullshit liar, yet much of what he says is true- and many things he says he DIDN'T DO (or couldn't) is exactly what he did. Read his interviews and how they've been debunked, or throw it ALL OUT because that's your standard.

With Justin, my POV was finally to REMOVE all of his statements, then look at the real facts. Surprisingly, some things he said lined up with the facts of the case. MANY things he's said totally line up. Many are absolute bullshit, because he was messing with cops. I found, through reading all I have and painstakingly making timelines, that Justin was lying and shifting his story to protect at least himself. Same goes for EVERYBODY I've mentioned above.

If people told the truth, this would have been solved on April 12 and Bo, Marty, and Marilyn would have been arrested for capital murder- as, likely, would others. You're demanding black and white where almost everything is still murky. 30 years on. Read more about it before making broad dismissals, or you're left with a case full of liars and no truth. It's out there, that elusive truth, but everyone's hiding something. Just ask anybody above still alive. No, don't! because they'll flat-out lie AGAIN! BASTARDS!
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby krazykat » Thu May 24, 2012 8:43 am

Interesting, when you blow up the picture of Johnny in the crime scene photo's that show his pants being pulled down a bit it looks like you can almost make out the writing on the shorts. Could be shadow because of the poor quality of the photo but it could be that his pants were pulled down enough that you could see the school insignia and read that they were Shiela's shorts. That would fit the hidden yet exposed theme that the bodies are posed in.
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby dmac » Thu May 24, 2012 1:20 pm

The insignia on school gym shorts is not visible in any photos I have, nor is any writing. The insignias were typically stamped on the lower left leg of the shorts, just a plain, solid stamp in the shape of a rectangle, oval, shield, etc. large enough for each student to print their name in indelible ink. As the ME points out, Sheila's name was printed inside the shield.

Beneath these pants are a red pair of athletic shorts stating "Groton Physical Ed." beneath a shield, and in the shield in ink is the name "Shiela Sharp".

What he failed to mention is the color of the shield, but the standard was white so the dark ink pen ink would stand out.

Visible in the photos is the blue vest, and below that the blue jogging jacket with three stripes down the arms, and peaking out roughly three inches below that is the bottom of the white mesh tank top. Below that is the gym shorts, with no writing and no visible shield with Sheila's name written on it.

Over the shorts, but pulled down several inches, are the jogging suit pants, again with three stripes down the side. the pants are contorted to the right several inches and down several inches. They have been contorted to the right anteriorly so that the area where a zipper would be is over the right thigh. The three stripes which should run down the right hip are shifted right (posteriorly) several inches, and the three stripes which would normally run down the left hip are running down his left anterior thigh. The stripes run down the pantlegs and are properly aligned by the point they reach the knees. Also, the posterior portion of the pants are pulled down a couple inches more than the anterior, and the right hip side is also pulled down 2-3 inches more than the left.

My best guess is that these loose, stretchy pants (looks like they were held up by an elastic waistband) were pulled down when Johnny was dragged / rolled over during the commission or staging of the crime.
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby krazykat » Thu May 24, 2012 2:11 pm

Dmac do you know if any photo's were taken from the front door before the bodies were removed? All the photo's I've seen so far look to have been taken from the the kitchen entrance.

And an addition to your description, there's no visible piping on the shorts on the few pictures availible online. Which would make them more unisex than not.
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby dmac » Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:19 am

Sorry, getting back to this thread WAAAAAY late. I miss a lot of posts due to sudden flurries of activity.

We know for fact they took a whole series of photos around the cabin, from the front doorway and inward. In Stoy's report on how he assisted at the CS from Day One, though incredibly inept and faulty, he details how photos were taken and in which order.

Stoy wrote:Starting at the front door we photographed and collected evidence through the living room and towards the kitchen area. A/S Shanks and Deputy Klement photographed the evidence as I collected and recorded it."

Although most of the photos we've seen are b&w prints, color prints of the same shots indicate all the film was full color and Josh was only provided the dodgy, less useful b&w prints.

The root of the issue is the poor condition of the photos we've seen and the randomness of them. We have very few of them, most of them are in B&W, and the majority of shots come from after the bodies had been removed.

A project I've been working on for some time is to put all the documents we have in order, chronologically, and completely redo the galleries on the site to organize and display the reports properly. I'll then do the same with the CS photos-- using Stoy's outline of how the shots were taken, and other factors (the info cards in the photos are sometimes legible, giving the date the photo was taken) to determine the chronology of the images.
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby JohnTate90210 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:12 pm

I'm watching Josh Hancock's documentary (part 2). Around 1:00:50 point, it's mentioned that Johnny was wearing Dana's vest. It also says he and Dana had apparently traded some articles of clothing, supposedly earlier in the day. So, we have Johnny wearing clothing that belonged to his sister and Dana. Additionally, it sounds like Dana may have been wearing something of Johnny's. Any other examples?
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby dmac » Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:33 am

The red bandana Johnny was seen wearing came from 28. I believe there is a report where Sheila said she was also looking for the bandanas that day, so Johnny's not the only one wearing them. The 'bandanas', of course, are sold as handkerchiefs, but never used for their designed purpose.

Image

    Q: WHAT COLOR OF HEAD BAND DID JOHNNY USUALLY WEAR?
    A: "SHEILA" - HE ALMOST ALWAYS WORE RED
    Q: DO YOU KNOW WHAT COLOR HEAD BAND JOHNNY WAS WEARING ON SATURDAY?
    A: "SHEILA" - RED
    "RICKIE" - RED
    Q: WERE THERE ANY OTHER COLOR HEAD BANDS OR BANDANA'S IN THE HOUSE?
    A: "SHEILA" - YES. A DARK BLUE ONE WITH LITTLE WHITE MARKS ALL OVER IT. I LOOKED FOR IT BEFORE THAT SATURDAY, BUT I COULDN'T FIND IT. I WANTED TO WEAR IT, SO I LOOKED FOR IT SEVERAL TIMES.

    810411-1830a Johnny had a week-old black eye and was wearing a red bandana and Dana’s blue vest. Dana gave himself an insulin shot while there. Neither was intoxicated. (6:30-6:45 pm)

I believe the bandana Q came up because of Sue's gag. Note the bandana is mentioned in the autopsy as being the first layer, then tape, then the "female undergarment" as the outermost layer (an afterthought of staging?). Also note the wording: "female undergarment". Why intentionally vague? And why no mention of her panties, said in other reports to have been balled up in her mouth. I believe the small slicing cut below her navel is consistent with cutting off her panties. There are no panty lines on Sue's corpse, however there are still indentations on her torso from the bra she was wearing. How long does it take for those marks on the skin to spring back on a live person? 2-5 minutes?

    A facial gag is present consisting of 2 portions of cloth extending around the lower portion of the face with the anterior portions both being in the mouth. The under portion of cloth has the appearance of a blue bandana. The outer portion has the appearance of a nylon female under garment. Between the two portions, in the region of the left side of the mouth, exists multiple portions of adhesive tape.

To answer your Q, Johnny and Dana were both wearing multiple layers of clothing. The temps fluctuated wildly that day, from 40s to probably mid-70s, and they dressed accordingly. The red unisex shorts were originally Sheila's. The bandanas? I don't know if they had 'owners', Seems like they swapped clothes alot in 28. And, to keep the record straight, the boots Dana was wearing were not his. He traded his shoes for the boots on Saturday, exchanging them with another young male under the Dorrises' supervision.
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby kmik » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:55 am

D-mac, if Sue had indentations on her torso from the bra she was wearing, then it is pretty obvious that she had not yet gone to bed. Most women take off their bra to sleep.
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby kmik » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:42 am

Well I am not going to argue over the bra. I am just not convinced that this all started in the bedroom, or that she was wearing a bra to bed.
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby JohnTate90210 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:49 am

Wasn't there a bit of blood in the girls' bedroom? Not that it would indicate the attack began there, but possibly a secondary attack on Tina.

It would seem logical that the doors were possibly left unlocked since Johnny probably hadn't returned home, yet. Plus, in case Sheila needed to come home. So, it's quite possible somebody simply walked in and right back to the bedroom. Heck, perhaps a reason for multiple trips to the bar, by Marty and Bo, were to watch for lights to go out?
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby Chichibcc » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:21 pm

Yes, there were traces of blood found in the room, including on a piece of cardboard that served as some sort of window insulation to keep out the cold.
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby dmac » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:08 pm

I still want someone other than me to focus on the blood at the base of the couch. I believe Sheila's red gym shorts were used as a mop, to control a bleed-out so it wasn't as obvious. Maybe even just Tina, I don't have a fucking clue but THINK ABOUT IT.

I believe how the couch was used is entirely uncharacteristic of the rest of the crime scene. I believe the couch area and shorts were used in a different way, just as Dana was strangled rather than... yeah. Different. Sue and Johnny were killed similarly. Dana was strangled. Tina? Those of you who think she left alive can fuck right off as you have less than 50/50 at showing logic.

but ignore Tina as subject or object or whatever and look at the stream of blood flow along the couch BEFORE IT WAS SHOVED AGAINST THE WALL, look at the blood-soaked shorts where I'm certain another victim bled out. Why the shorts?

It's ugly and glaring at all of us until we figure it out.

Sheila's blood-soaked gym shorts are 180° OPPOSITE from the rest of EVERYTHING in that room.

That's seriously fucked up. Glaringly obvious, and we've been ignoring that cock buried down our throats for how many decades? How could we even breathe?!

Again, thanks to IPO and all others just for waking me up to seeing the crime scene with new eyes, aided by your respectful candor.

I just realized this and must add it... I spent a lot of time saying SUE WAS FIRST, then Dana, then Johnny. The couch and those bloody gym shorts are literally FIRST. Fuck me. Tell me whose head bloodied those shorts and that's the first victim.

Something else is Sue's head was on a clean spot exposed on the carpet when the couch was shoved against the wall. It probably happened at the same time. Whoever turned Sue over and covered her with the sheet and blanket also are responsible for shoving the couch against the wall. It would have been between say 4 am and 6 am, by which time Sue's rigor was plainly set.

I want every eye, every memory cell focused on those red shorts. I don't believe the shorts play any part other than the killers using them as a blood control, but if that isn't a good enough reason to get your ass in gear, what is?
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Re: Johnny Wearing Sheila's Gym Shorts

Postby dmac » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:11 am

I must make this patently clear. I mean "couch area", not the couch itself. I have ZERO intel that the couch was utilized during the crimes and every indication the killer in charge wanted the victims ON THE GROUND.

I mean "the couch area" and I think the brighter bulbs in this box already get it.

I don't mean any slur, so please allow that every foible out of my mouth isn't intentional, hostile, or remotely original.
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