Introducing myself - Hi!

introduce yourself, & tell us how you became interested in the case.

Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby sorrytointerrupt » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:02 pm

Hello everyone,

I have a bunch of questions, but first I wanted to share my purpose for joining the forum and "where I'm coming from".

My name is Brad and I work in the social services field in Chico, CA in Butte County. I'm the Director of a large homeless shelter. I'm sharing this from the start because I believe in transparency. Anyone can look me up if they want to find out more about me. I came across this case about 7 years ago now shortly after I moved here to California from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I've never joined any of the forums before but have found myself coming back to the case over and over again over the years; reading about the developments, hoping answers could be found in this tragic case. The biggest reason I've never joined before is because my job has kept me extraordinarily busy. The reason I'm joining now is first that my staff is now strong enough that I can work more reasonable hours and more importantly, I've always been deeply troubled by how poorly this family was served by the social services in their community.

This was a family in crisis even before the tragic events on the 12th. It was a family of six with a single parent that I believe had moved 5 times in the last two years including four separate states. They were on public assistance and TANF funds would not have been enough to cover the expenses of a family of six without other means of support. As a former case manager, it would have been one of my priorities to figure out where else this family was getting income from?

In addition, the oldest boy was known to be experimenting with drugs (at least pot, with allegations of others), he even looks high in some of the photos shared on the site and he was currently hanging out with an older boy that was living in a foster home and had his own set of problems. Again, as a former case manager, I would have wanted to find out if that friendship was a healthy one.

Then the oldest daughter had already had a teenage pregnancy and put the child up for adoption in another state and it's possible had already reunited with the biological father upon her return to the family. Some obvious concerns there.

Then the youngest daughter had apparently already been sexually abused in the few short months they had lived in Plumas County.

Then there's the two youngest boys who at the very least must have been conflicted and bewildered by all the drama and instability in their young lives.

This family was in severe crisis and the social services available to them failed and were failing long before the events of the 12th. This doesn't mean that I blame the incompetent social services involved for the murders, just that I'm appalled they weren't getting more constructive help as a family in crisis to start with.

This also doesn't mean that I'm passing judgment on the family. Please trust that I am not. I'm simply assessing objectively the reality of their circumstances and what I would have liked to know about if I was a case manager assigned to their case. None of the items I stated above or the people and families we serve at the shelter I run are defined by these types of facts, obstacles or problems in their lives. Whether people are good people or bad, decent or immoral, have a good future or not has very little to do with the obstacles and mistakes that have been made or the barriers they face to a healthy life. It's a much more pragmatic approach, that is hopefully devoid of judgments. Do I meet some crappy people in my job -of course!! But frankly, that's not the norm. Social services should be an objective analysis of the barriers and threats to a healthy future of the people on your caseload and then the formation of a plan to eliminate those barriers and threats.

So, among many other reasons, that's part of the reason I keep coming back to this case that I'm appalled by how poorly Mona Green (I hope I got the name right?) and other service providers failed this family. I think I'll probably post infrequently and sporadically because I'll go through periods at work where I get too busy, but I'd like to hope that I might be able to help in some way and so I decided to join the forum after 7 years of following the case.

Please ask me any questions you like. And I have a whole bunch of questions regarding issues that have been brought up about Tina, Sue, Justin, Johnny, Marty, Bo and Marilyn. The answers to my questions might already be in here somewhere but for now I'm not even sure where to post my questions and which threads I should add to and could use some guidance.

A long introduction I know. Thanks for your patience. I hope to be helpful.

Brad

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Re: Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby Chichibcc » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:43 pm

Welcome to the forum :)

Probably the best place to post questions in in the just speculatin' section of the forum, if you don't find the answers to your questions already there. It's probably also the best place to read about the backgrounds/different theories regarding the individuals you mentioned.

And if you don't find a thread relating to your question, please feel free to start a new one.

What particular questions did you have? If you could list them, I could try to find/link threads that relate most specifically to those topics for you as well.
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Re: Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby sorrytointerrupt » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:59 pm

Thanks Chichibcc, I think you are right that Just Speculatin' is the best place for me to start. I've read so many of the posts but frankly it's overwhelming even with the fantastic job DMAC has done with search engines to try to figure out whether every question you have has an answer already and so I'll start there next with some questions I have about Tina's history and take it from there. Thank you for your guidance. This has become a really massive undertaking and I think it's worth it.

Brad
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Re: Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby dmac » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:21 pm

Thanks for joining, Brad. I, too, believe in transparency. Fortunately, I didn't follow my instincts in this instance. The degree to which I've become involved, the info uncovered, and the people I've pissed off in doing so, makes my relative anonymity a wonderful thing. I've also learned crime forums attract a more degenerate element than typical web bullies/trolls. I heard about the case as I was pulling news feeds that Sunday at the radio station where I worked. It stuck with me because I'd been through Keddie as a kid, and Johnny was my age.

I do believe Plumas Social Services plays a crucial role in the backdrop to not only the crime, but the culture and micro-community in which the victims, killers, and conspirators lived. PSS also plays a direct role in why the victims were there and why victimization was allowed to continue. Plus, Mona Green, the head of PSS in that era, is directly responsible for covering up PCSO's Ken (best-buddy pal of killer Marty Smartt) Shanks' molestation of children. As "sheriff", Shanks ended up in charge of the Keddie case! And he's the one named as the source of rumors that Tina was pregnant!

Also, Mona's son, Dana Green, is all over this case as the "druggie Dana" seen around Quincy and at the 'drug parties' our Dana and Johnny were supposedly seen at (never confirmed, and the party sightings of D&J don't line up with the times they were definitely hitching from the gas station). Not to mention, one of her case workers apparently routinely raped women whose cases he mishandled. Yeah, to say PSS didn't have a hand in this is tantamount to deeming the Keddie Case a mass suicide.

The only other supposed income for Sue was her involvement in the education program, and she alledgedly occasionally worked at the ELKS lodge. I'm not aware of the program's details, but she was an FRC student in 1980. There is ZERO indication she was still going at the time of the murders. Likewise, there is only scant word-of-mouth (and 100% unverified) mention that she was a barmaid.

As the diminutive oldest male in the house, Johnny seemed to be lashing out in many directions. He had a chip on his shoulder a helluvalot bigger than the Eveready batteries Robert Conrad was hawking at the time. When it comes to drugs, I can't imagine what that angle may have had in the murders. I do know the rumors of J &/or D being involved in a drug rip-off in the days/weeks prior to the murders is completely stupid bullshit: No drugs in their systems, not even a beer. And no cash? They were outside of a gas station/convenience store most of the evening yet had no food in their stomachs, and were turned down for rides back to Keddie because neither could provide gas money? Musta been 'The Big Rip-Off of '81' for them to be completely broke from it. BTW, there's only a couple 'recent' shots of Johnny (1980/1), and he's either bowling or playing Mattel football, so you can't really see his face or eyes, much less tell if he's stoned.

Both Dana and Johnny came from very troubled backgrounds and homes. I get the feeling the Dorisses provided Dana with the most constant and stable environment and support he'd seen in his 17 years, whereas Johnny seems to have been spiraling further out of control. Dana may have just been reintroduced to QHS after his 'tire bust', so he and Johnny had probably met recently at school or via mutual friends. I question the health of MANY of the links and 'friendships' I've discovered or seen mentioned in this case and, trust me, Johnny's friendship with Dana is nowhere near the top of that pile of bizarre crap.

You seem more than passingly conversant with the case, so you're probably aware of Sheila's less-than-cooperative idea of 'truthiness', not only on these forums but way back at Day One. For a perfect example, I point you to her version of events Saturday morning, April 11, at the Meeks and elsewhere, and how they don't match up with the father of her child, Richard Meeks. Not only that, but PCSO apparently never bothered to clear up the blatant discrepancies.

Generally speaking, quality of Fed/State Social Services depended entirely on 1> the state's willfulness to help or screw their citizenry; 2> the individual counties' willfulness to do same; and 3> the ability of the local workers to DO the work, free of BS or corruption. It wasn't pretty back then, but I believe fed/state-mandated social services is in absolute crisis today. Our government's sole ability to function now revolves around pocketing money for their pals and screwing the rest of us.

As Chi mentioned, the best place to ask pointed questions is currently in the SPECULATION area, specifically on the ASK THE EXPERTS thread. And I do have a Q which you may be able to help with:

Are you familiar with the educational program Sue was involved in? I don't believe it exists today, and I can't find where it's named on this forum, but it came from SS. I think it was a fed-funded program which paid Sue's school tuition, fees and incidentals, as well as a benefit/stipend to do so. Details concerning the commitments and requirements (as well as the financial benefits) from staying enrolled in that program...? We're still trying to add up many basic Qs surrounding the victims and killers, including how Sue afforded to survive in Plumas.

And, lastly, don't be a stick in the mud. I feel you have a lot to add, and from a crucial perspective and area of expertise we rarely hear from. Welcome aboard!
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Re: Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby sorrytointerrupt » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:55 pm

Hey Dmac, I'm too new to the site to know whether I'm just responding to your response or to everyone but it really doesn't matter as long as you receive this. Thank you for your message!!

Thanks for your implied and appreciated concern regarding my anonymity, I can certainly see where it has come in handy for you. At the same time, my job brings me under pretty consistent scrutiny and public attention all the time and I can't think of anything I'll share on this site that will bring anymore vitriolic animosity my way then I already receive. Don't get me wrong, there are so many people that love what I do for a living and appreciate that I do it well and others that - well, not so much :) To me it's always been a no-brainer, the more people we can help to become self sufficient the better quality of life for everyone, but I believe ideology sometimes blinds people.

I'm glad you raised the drug angle right away. I agree. At best, these two teenagers were neophytes and certainly didn't get involved in anything so serious so quickly to result in the horrors that happened on the 12th. Does their drug activity play some role in some way regarding introductions and complicating situations - maybe? I don't know!! But the idea that a 15 year old and 17 year old were so involved in some integral way in the drug trade in Northern Cali in 1981 after both of them had only been in the area for less than a year that it resulted in what happened to them I believe to be very unlikely.

And thanks for bringing up Dana Green. I wanted to mention him in my original post but I thought it was already too long :) I do believe that Johnny and Dana smoked pot. And frankly, I don't care if they did. Johnny was born one year earlier than I was and I know very few people in my age group that didn't at that age and several that still do now. I do think there's some traction to the idea that many of the reports of drug use and trafficking were really about Dana Green. I think that these misidentifications regarding Dana Green and Dana Wingate have sometimes sidetracked the investigation. I'm not saying I think Johnny and Dana's limited drug use had no connection to the events of the 12th but I am saying that I believe them to be tangential at best and more of a red herring.

Regarding Ken Shanks and everyone in Plumas County or elsewhere that may read this and knew what he was and didn't report, didn't say anything, didn't take action - Shame on you! Deep, Deep, Shame on you! But at least it finally came out.

As for the your comments DMAC regarding what I think was an indictment on all social services on private, county, state and national levels of services and programs. I agree that we have an inadequate safety net and politics, greed and incompetence complicate the conversation far too often.

As far as the FRC, I certainly don't know but that's the most common acronym for a string of agencies around the country short for Family Resource Centers. If that's what it was, then the FRC was most likely not a recipient or dispenser of funds in anyway but more of a location for connecting the family to support programs that were available (a referral center) and possibly even a simply a mailing address.

Final thought Dmac, the Meeks fascinate me in all of this. How can they seem to be so close to everything in so many ways and yet..

Thanks, Brad
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Re: Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby Chichibcc » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:23 am

Actually, FRC stands for Feather River College-this was the institution where Sue was taking courses for the particular program she was in:http://www.frc.edu/
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Re: Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby dmac » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:17 pm

Yep, FRC is the college Sue was enrolled in during 1980. I'll have to look for details on the ed program she was involved in- it's on the forum, somewhere...

As for the drug concerns, I should have mentioned after the murders it was revealed Johnny had been involved in the ripoff of a bag of pot, but that Johnny was evidently unawares and may have been used as a distraction. It was a small bag, ounce or less, and somehow it was deemed Johnny wasn't really the culprit and he arranged to get out from under it. The accuser is the important part: a bus driver at the School District, and a roommate. I also find it odd the person who supposedly used Johnny as a foil is not mentioned. Protect the living, eh?

I think Dana Green and Mona tie into a netherworld of drugs and corruption that existed long before (and after) the Sharps came to town. With the corruption and coverups by Mona (about CHILD MOLESTATION and her own kid's involvement in the drug trade, and the fact she chose to protect a molester sheriff instead of kids) and PCSO, plus the fact the buyers knew the pushers and some of the pushers were involved with LE, it's no wonder to me so many people kept quiet. Most of those that knew were afraid, and rightfully so. The rest that knew? Bury 'em, just like a cat does! If Mona, as head of Social Services, decided to take part in the coverup, it seems many people knew what was going on, some reported it, and all realized reporting the truth in Plumas does nothing but put you at risk of retaliation. That's why many believe the murders were, in part, retaliation for whatever waves someone in that cabin could, or did, make.

...the Meeks fascinate me in all of this. How can they seem to be so close to everything in so many ways and yet..

Protected? If Sheila's behavior and actions are suspect, Mama Meeks' are closer to Loon's than Sheila's.
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Re: Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby sorrytointerrupt » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:19 pm

Hey everyone,

I want to first ask a stupid IT question. I haven't figured out yet how to THANK someone for their posts and responses. I know how to look up how many thanks people have received and given. :) But not yet, how to thank people?

Second, I want to say - Wow - it's amazing how much this case stays with you. I've been really busy at work the last few days and yet almost every spare minute it would pop back into my mind. I'm going to need discipline and boundaries in order to stay on the site. LOL.

In the meantime, thanks to Chichibcc for clarifying and correcting my response. I didn't read dmac's email close enough. FRC would be Feather River College, not Family Resource Center. That's where she was taking the courses but as far as the program that was paying for them? I do think I have an answer for Dmac's original question. there use to be a program through SSI,SSDI, & SSA referred to as the extensions program (at least that's what we called it in Wisconsin where I'm from) When W-2 was passed federally (and state by state) it got wiped out and then in 1999 the closest parallel was created called WIPA (or Ticket to Work colloquially). WIPA stands for Work Incentives Planning and Assistance and Ticket to Work is the initiative within that gets the most amount of public exposure. Frankly, neither compares favorably to the old extensions program in what options it provided but that's the closest parallel we have currently. For whatever reason it was asked, I hope that answer helps.

And thanks to Dmac for your last response. Lots of good stuff there but it's one of the last statements I'm going to focus on. Just for a bit. A lot has already been said by me and of course by so many people on this site regarding where Sue was at in her life. She had come out of a destructive relationship, moved to the other side of the country, there've been statements that she no longer drank, etc. I lean towards the notion that Sue was making some strides at getting the chaos of her family under control and refocusing her own life in the process. Did she date a bunch of losers a few times each in the months before she died - probably!! But that's not inconsistent at all with the idea that a relatively young woman and a mother of five was searching for a more stable life for her kids and willing to explore every option she could think of to gain that stability. Too bad, she only met weirdos, creeps and assholes. That doesn't sully her motives or her conviction for what she had established as her goals and the fact that none of the "men" in her life even remotely claim they were still involved or serious with her I think validates the fact that she had started to establish boundaries and expectations for the behavior of the "men" in her life. I hope her empowerment didn't play a role in her murder, but I think it's possible that it did.

Thanks, Brad
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Re: Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby dmac » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:42 am

It seems you worked out the IT issue on your own...

CETA is the educational program Sue was enrolled in, replaced in the 82-83 by Reagan's Job Training Partnership Act. If you know anyone that could calculate what Sue may have received back in 80/81 under CETA, with her circumstances in 81, it would answer the longstanding Q of all legit streams of income at her disposal.

Sue was seeing a lot of men. I believe Tony Garakakis was one of them, and it was a violent relationship that ended badly, which is why his pal, Mike Davis, concocted the Avery Schreiber reverse-alibi and why Tony lied so badly about his time with Sue and the kids. Considering the number of sources stating Marty was obsessed with Sue, and Marty's own assertion in his confession that Sue was ruining his marriage and deserved what she got... add that to the fact Sue's last "steady" lived right outside Marty's bedroom window. Dareyl's trailer was just uphill from 26, and Sue was there alot in the days prior to her murder. She was wined and dined there, went out shooting pool and drinking with him on several occasions, cooked dinner for him there, slept there. See Timeline Z:

    810409-????z Sue cooks a meal for Dareyl Josephson at his trailer, then they have drinks. Sue left in the following early morning hours. (1db) <Josephson to Shaver>
Marty and Bo, both admittedly light sleepers. Marty admits he's up around 3am every night. Before B&M flee, Loon tells LE that Bo gets up at night and wanders around Keddie (contradicting established lies in the Loonibi that Bo's her uncle, both had epilepsy, and both took the same meds which zonked them out nightly). Sue is at Dareyl's at that hour, knocking boots just 50 yards away, and ends up dead two days later? I see a lot more there (with Tina and the boys as collateral damage) than I do with the Tina molestation angle.

As an aside, I don't believe in establishing a motive to build a case around. Follow the evidence, the clues, the liars, and that will lead to the key players. It slowly has, thus far. Years ago, the best anyone had to go on was the most common word-of-mouth line, which was "Marty and/or his pal, some guy named Bo, did it". Now we know Bo's full name and a big chunk of his history, plus we have added Marilyn, Dee Lake, Tony Garedakis, Doug Thomas, Mike Crim, Harry Bradley, and other PCSO/LE as directly involved in the murders and ensuing landslide coverup. There are multiple motives for the murders, just as there are many directly involved in the murders. At this point, I see establishing motive(s) to be a wankfest. As the logo says, the case is still down to "exposing the truth, one liar at a time".
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Re: Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby sorrytointerrupt » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:19 pm

Hey folks,

First off, I've got some reading and rereading to do because I'm missing some stuff and thanks for everyone's patience. For example I never got that Tony "the greek" was a romantic connection to Sue before. I had caught all the other ones that dmac referred to but certainly not with as much detail on those either. I thought Tony was strictly connected to the drug angle with the boys and didn't realize there was another angle to his involvement in this family's life.

Also, thanks for tracking down the name of CETA for the program. I think I'll be able to use what I know about TANF rates during that time along with what I can learn about CETA to at least approximate the reported family income at the time. It may take a little bit of time but I'll try to keep folks appraised of my progress and any stumbling blocks I encounter along the way.

And now I want to bring something up that I know has been discussed often and frankly I know it's kind of a dead end at the same time. I just want to say my piece on it. I was just outside on my porch because I have a stupid habit. :) But from sitting outside on my porch, I could hear my friend Bob who lives in the guest house at least 100 yards away having a conversation on his phone with his girlfriend. I could hear every word he said crisply and clearly without straining or even trying. And he wasn't yelling or talking loudly. And he was inside! With his windows open on April 11th!!

I live in Butte County and so there can be some differences in temperature and climate on a given day between here and Plumas certainly but I think the weather is fairly comparable. What was the weather like on this April 12th in Plumas County? Were there any windows open? Even if the windows were closed, I doubt that these cabins had a great deal of soundproofing inside or out including the windows. Right?

What I'm getting at should be clear by now that I just can't believe that "No One Heard Anything" - certainly at the Seabolt Home (almost arm's length away) or that ANYONE in the house slept through the whole thing. I just can't accept that!! I think there's a report from the Mike "Frank" Davis house that they heard something? But, that's it? BS BS BS

Was the music coming from the Backdoor Bar so loud that it drowned out everything in the neighborhood? Was there something else going on that made a lot of noise? Is there any offered rationale to explain why no one heard anything? Let's not forget that we are basically talking about a country, rural setting where sounds seem to travel even better!

I honestly believe that everyone in the house was awakened at some point during this tragedy and why I wish fervently that Greg and Rick would speak up instead of Sheila being the spokesperson for the family or having to rely on Justin's compromised account of what he did or didn't see based on what day he is asked.

I also honestly believe that other people in the surrounding cabins heard something and maybe unfortunately attributed it to "more drama at the Sharp house" and tried to tune it out and later felt that it reflected badly on them that they didn't take action. I know this is a dead end because if people just continue to say that they didn't hear anything, the conversation goes nowhere but I just don't think that statement is credible !!! The kids at some point woke up and there has to be some people in the neighborhood that heard stuff and ignored it!! Just wanted to get that off my chest.

Thanks, Brad
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Re: Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby Chichibcc » Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:40 am

I don't think the boys were asleep at all through that-considering that their bedroom shared an adjoining wall with the living room.

I think Greg and Rick don't say anything because they know some of the individuals involved are still alive and out there, possibly. Plus, they now have families/children of their own, which probably has made them even more reluctant to do so.
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Re: Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby kmik » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:45 am

Yeah, I don't think there would be many people who believe that the boys slept through the murders. I don't know if anyone had time for a lot of screaming (other than what Mike Plyer and Barbara(?)) heard. And you know if the windows were shut and people had been asleep for a while I can understand nobody much hearing anything. As for the Seabolt family next door, I feel like this was a family that had structure- no kids coming and going at all hours, plus they were going to church on Sunday Morning so they probably had the kids in bed at a decent time. And I think that is why the other kids liked to stay over there - because they functioned as a real family unit.
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Re: Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby dmac » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:03 pm

I think the lack of earwitnesses is down to several things, apart from the strong possibility people are not being honest about hearing things, and other people did hear things but their accounts are not in our reports. Here's a few:

VEGETATION / TOPOGRAPHY: When I visited Keddie in April 2011, I did notice how quiet Keddie was- not that noise wasn't being made, but all the sounds are dampened. Keddie is 3000 ft higher than Chico, nestled in a winding canyon with a river running down the middle. The topography fluctuates wildly, and the entire area is covered with a mix of old-growth Douglas and White fir, and Ponderosa Pine. There's plenty of ground foliage, native bushes, trees, etc. These conditions are about perfect for absorbing or blocking sound. Conversely, if there's a strong enough breeze or wind, the tall trees make a very nice white noise that will smother most sound.

WATER: While Spanish Creek is normally a tame trickle throughout summer and fall, in April it's raging from typical winter thaw. It certainly was making a roar when I visited. I think that would directly impact what's heard by a majority of cabins in Keddie, most of which stood on the rim above the river: Cabins 1-12, 18-23. Also, the river would drown out most everything for the residents down on Keddie Flats, on both sides of the footbridge. Seeing as Tina was unconscious/dead if she was taken across, all the killers had to worry about were dogs barking- at strangers, as Marty was gracious enough to point out- and Marty was not a stranger. Still, most dogs bark at assholes, so being familiar with the neighborhood dogs was probably more of a hindrance than benefit for Mr. Smartt.

TRAINS: Here's the elephant in the room- The railyard is literally 400 feet from 28's doorstep. Trains coming through at all hours, workers making nonstop noise, one simply becomes immune to loud noise. Residents become acclimated, and my guess is the majority of Keddieites could sleep through damned near anything.
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Re: Introducing myself - Hi!

Postby Pekeluvr » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:16 pm

I did not realize that the railroad was THAT close. Having lived near a railroad, I can attest to the fact that you certainly don't "hear it" after awhile. I would imagine ones threshold would be quiet a bit higher in regards to noticing any other kinds of noise that fall below the train decibels they were accustomed to. And, if the killer was a local, he/she/they would certainly know the train schedule. Does anyone know if it ran at night? Sometimes there are noise ordinances that would prohibit rail travel, though I doubt in such a remote, tidy town thee would be one.
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