General observations

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

General observations

Postby J_Side » Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:24 pm

I had some thoughts while reading through the forum posts, and thought it couldn’t hurt to post.
Maybe his stuff has already been discussed and dismissed, but maybe not?

Re: Forum Post: Tina as the first victim: post by Cheshire Sun 11 May 2014 5:56am: mention of Johnny autopsy report noting hairs caught in tape around his wrists (including some grey hair) - has this ever been DNA tested or is it now lost?

Marty as killer would go a long way to explaining why the boys in the bedroom were spared – not killing your own child.

Inconsistent binding on John and Dana - possible that one victim held at knifepoint (John/ Tina/ Sue) while John instructed to bind the Dana? Dana’s binding is so different as to not be by killer.
D and J then bound together by electric cord so they couldn't make a break for it, suggesting only one or two perpetrators concerned with being outnumbered by victims.

Maybe killer struggled with idea of killing a little girl and took her with him till he built up nerve to kill her, or to avoid killing her in front of his son. This could be why she was wearing jacket cause she was removed
from house alive.

Maybe the boys were the first victims. You mentioned there was blood in S & T's bedroom and on bedsheets. Maybe the attack happened on boys first and then S was dragged out of bedroom, witnessed what had
happened and put up a struggle (receiving defensive wounds).

Or blood in bedroom was from the attacker returning to the bedroom to grab Tina who could have come out, seen the attack, and then run back into bedroom.

Could the blood on Sue's feet be her own, could she have been stabbed and then put feet into own blood pool? Did any of the autopsy reports show a potential gap in the time of death between the boys and Sue?
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Re: General observations

Postby kmik » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:39 am

I don't know why the boys were spared but it surely wasn't because Justin was Marty's child - because he was not. Marty left his wife and children to be with Marilyn. If Marty loved Justin enough to spare his life (and risk being caught) why be over at Cabin 28 committing murder in the first place? If Marty had to let the boys live because of Justin - then why not just send Justin back to Cabin 26 and kill Ricky and Greg along with everyone else? No one would have known he had been spending the night over there anyway. But aside from all of that Ricky and Greg were nothing to Marty so why let them live?

Most of us are under the impression that the killers did this massive "staging" before leaving Cabin 28. Why go to all of that trouble, abduct and murder one child, but let 3 more survive? It would be hard enough to keep one from eventually talking - but three? I would say almost impossible.
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Re: General observations

Postby dmac » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:45 am

Impossible, you say? Who's talking, cuz I sure as hell hear nothing. Is it Justin talking? Or Rick? Greg?
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Re: General observations

Postby kmik » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:44 am

Yeah, Justin did tell the things that his mother "helped" him remember. I just feel like you hear nothing now because they have nothing to tell. Look I didn't come to this conclusion overnight - I've been on this forum since January. But I finally started looking at EVERYTHING and not just what I wanted to see, or what someone else wanted me to see. MARTY SMARTT IS DEAD. Why the silence? Is it because Marilyn is still living? Well Marilyn helped spread the word that Marty was the killer - so why would they worry about her? It just does not make sense. I think the boys heard something going on and probably hid in the closet scared to death. They can't tell anything because they do not know. Just my opinion. I wasn't there and do not know.
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Re: General observations

Postby J_Side » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:18 am

I just think it would be much harder to kill a kid than to kill an adult (and teenagers) and whoever did this had no intention of hurting any of the younger kids. I think what happened with Tina backs this up, she was possibly killed by accident, or they felt they had no choice (she saw something) and that they took her away from the scene while they decided what to do with her. I know Marty was only Justin's stepfather, but you still wouldn't hurt your wife's child, especially if she had knowledge of what was happening.
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Re: General observations

Postby kmik » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:29 am

See that is what I am saying. If Tina was killed because of what she saw - then the boys were spared because of what they did not see. I know you are like me and don't know what happened, but if Marty did not kill Justin because he was his stepson then what was his reason for letting Ricky and Greg live? He could have taken them off along with Tina. Why didn't he? Do you think he just didn't want Justin to think he was a child killer - but left 3 people murdered on the living room floor and Tina missing? Just a lot of questions that none of us can really answer.
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Re: General observations

Postby dmac » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:51 pm

I think most of the discussion trying to refute Marty not killing the three kids because Justin was one of them is pretty feeble. Marty has confessed multiple times to the murders, and Justin not only named Marty and Bo as the killers but Marty ADMITTED Justin saw him. And don't forget that several of the postmortem wounds appear to be hesitation-type wounds, like suicide or self-abuse vix do but possibly also from kids being forced to participate, to get "dirty" to force their silence.

The idea Marty had to spare all the kids in that room pretty solid. The idea "the <other, not Marty and Bo> killers" didn't know the boys were in the room- or in the closet- is remarkably bizarre and, to be blunt, patently unbelievable. The idea Marty and Loon would send Justin (and Casey?) home so they could "kidnap and kill" the other boys? That's beyond reason, even for killers as stupid as these.

I don't mind people having their doubts. I do about nearly every damned thing on the table. But to come out and parrot the same stuff that's been said hundreds of times without bringing anything new to the table is reminiscent of mk's pointless posts. That's not a great comparison, but it's still a valid point. If you want to put up baseless and usesless "I don't believe" posts without any followup is pointless and meritless. May I suggest that's what POLLS are for?

Bring something to the plate other than "I don't think." I know this thread is "just spec", but that doesn't mean "wow this just doesn't make sense to me" over and over is a waste of space and time. Deleting thousands of repetitive posts (I was able to weed out 95% of MK's posts as spam) is how I was able to get this forum down to a manageable 4500 posts from it's bloated original 12500.

Dumping the idea that Marty never made multiple confessions, and that Marty didn't admit Justin saw him, and completely tossing the silly supposition the killers weren't aware of every human left alive in the cabin, if you want to make a blanket "I don't believe" statement without any other logical explanation is a post I would have deleted - and will the next time I have to crop down this forum. We're up to 7200+ posts already. Several hundred of them can be deleted without being missed, but I want stuff that's within guidelines to stay up for a while before being weeded out. Maybe they will provoke a more thoughtful reply, maybe not.

OK now, kmik, explain how and why any OTHER killers left Justin, Greg, and Rick alive. And "I have no clue" doesn't pass. Oh, and explain how Tina wasn't IMMEDIATELY involved in the attacks when they BEGAN IN HER DAMNED ROOM.
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Re: General observations

Postby kmik » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:18 pm

Sorry but I was just responding to the fact that it has been repeated OVER and OVER that all 3 boys survived because of Justin. To be honest Dmac, if I knew why the boys were left alive then that would probably make me the murderer (because only they would know why). I just don't feel comfortable saying that I KNOW how anything started or ended - because I don't. So do you really want me "speculating" on anything else?

I fully agree with you that questions like, "Was Tina alive when she left the cabin", or "Why were the 3 boys left alive", or "Who did Marty make that phone call to", are certainly a waste of time and space on the forum. But the problem with this thread is that this is the first place people usually go to read - only to end up completely sidetracked with everyone's thoughts and opinions about the case. Maybe members should be required to have 15 post before they can have access to this thread. They almost never read up on "Keddie Facts" before they start speculating.
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Re: General observations

Postby dmac » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:34 pm

That's actually a damned fine idea abt having the SPEC thread off limits to posts by newbies. It may mean rearranging things to accommodate, but I think everyone (including guests ) should be able to read it but only seasoned, full members should be allowed to post.

As for the OP, it was sent to me in a PM or email and I told the member to go ahead and post it, as the overall post is good. I just haven't had a chance to read or respond to the last few days of posts. I've been busy in real life, and the site is also getting slammed again by Halloween goreseekers: 20000+ hits in the last 18 hours.
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Re: General observations

Postby J_Side » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:57 pm

Having found out about the story on a well known website 2-days ago, I was aware the site would be bombarded, which is why I sent an email rather than make the forums more bloated with theories that have already been dismissed. I have not known the case long enough to have read all the history, and did not therefore want to jump to the forum immediately.

Anyway, perhaps someone can point me to any forum posts or info on the hairs found in John's binding, I would be interested in reading more on that, particularly in light of what can be achieved these days via DNA testing.

It sounds like most people have come to a conclusion on who they believe is the guilty party, however with them being deceased it will be hard to confirm. It is my strong impression that the 3 remaining boys know more than they are telling and may one day reveal more. Someone asked why they would keep their mouths shut since Marty is dead, but they are keeping their mouths shut out of shame (possibly) at not being overly forthcoming sooner.
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Re: General observations

Postby Chichibcc » Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:19 am

Welcome to the form, J_Side.

Here is a link to a post/thread regarding the hairs found, with some more information:

http://keddie28.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=458&p=5873&hilit=hairs#p5866
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Re: General observations

Postby dmac » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:11 pm

Back to kmik's suggestion for a moment:

From a MOD viewpoint, I'm having second thoughts abt the suggestion to restrict posting on the Spec forum. If history is of any benefit, people already post spec anywhere they please. Therefore, prohibiting newbies from posting in the section designed specifically FOR spec may lead to some of them posting the same speculation elsewhere, potentially creating minefields of 'political correctness' BS for us mods.

I think the NEWBIES section points out so much great info that anyone posting wild and factually unsupported speculation is already on thin ice, but would blocking new members from posting in the SPEC section help the site overall? Or would doing so lead to a situation where we mods have to do more work, only for the forum to appear less flexible and more hostile to newbies?

I've already intentionally put barriers in place to keep passersby from viewing sensitive info and photos, and I think the benefits far outweigh any misconception this site is a Krazy Klozed Kommune. Only full members with at least 15 approved posts can view certain things, yada yada, we know the rules.

My suggestion would be, rather than banning all newbies from posting in the SPEC section, make a rule that spec needs to be backed up with facts. I think it's a win/win/win: Spec posts having supporting info should have been in place decades ago; it should lead to fewer posts clouding the forum w/ bizarre and unsupported spec; and it will be a less ill-perceived rule than altogether banning newbies from spec posts...
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Re: General observations

Postby dmac » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:10 pm

Having said that, 15 seconds later I'm well aware 'unsupported spec' may have led to major breakthroughs in the Keddie case. I cannot offer any examples where wild spec has led to solid info, so if others can point out any such instances, this entire forum and case would benefit.

I haven't participated much in spec threads. What spec I do, and what others like kmik do while researching, is take notes about potential leads before exploring them. If they don't pan out, or if they do but are still not tied to the murders, they are left out of any post I make. Kmik has proved to live by the same unspoken rule. That's why, despite my public arguments with kmik (why make them private?), I appointed kmik a mod in the first place.
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Re: General observations

Postby JEP » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:43 pm

If I may offer my opinion here? As someone new to the forum I appreciate that we are allowed to post and ask questions. When I first started I was overwhelmed with all the information. I was hesitant to post at all because I didn't want to waste anyone's time with questions that were asked and answered here a million times by those of you who have been here for years. But in order to get full membership privileges, you have to post 15 times. My problem is: What in the world can I possibly add to the immense volume of research that dmac has done? I don't want to ask redundant or stupid questions but I do want to be a full member.

Anyway.... The post that helped me the most was dmac's timeline post and how he thought the murders went down. I guess that's two different posts. I then wrote down questions I had from these two posts and then started searching (the search here is great by the way).

All the information you need to know about this case is in this forum. I came to realize the things that puzzled me puzzle you guys too. But, it took me several late nights reading over several weeks to see this. I hope I can join in the chats soon. I'm looking forward to discussing the case in RT.
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Re: General observations

Postby bbragg » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:42 pm

i don't know if this is the right place to say this, but here goes.i have read some where that it looked like dana had been setting up at some time.and I have looked at all the pictures .the chairs at the table are not all pushed in.i wonder if maybe the boys where in johnny's room and heard something and came up stairs to the kitchen and maybe dana was tied to one of the kitchen chair.was there any blood found in the kitchen.if so was it dana's
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Re: General observations

Postby Chichibcc » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:59 pm

I don't reacall any blood being found in the kitchen, but there are no photos of the kitchen available, so it's impossible to acertain whether chairs were moved for the scenario you're describing with Dana.
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