A Few Questions

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

A Few Questions

Postby kevB » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:46 pm

Hello Josh and everyone else...
My name is Kevin, I'm a webmaster from Dallas,Tx and I'm new to the board...

I have tons of notes and my own theories, but I just wanted to start with a
few questions to get some feedback from you and the others...

I apologize if some of these issues have been dealt with and answered already...
================================================================================

1. Were the killers already in the cabin when Johnny & Dana arrived?

Here's why I believe this to be true ... according to Shelia, Johnny was very
protective of the family. I just can't picture Johnny bringing strangers
into his home, late at night and putting his family in any kind of danger.
I could picture him putting up a fight or trying to warn his family before
he would allow strangers to enter that cabin with him late at night with his family there.


2. Did Sue know the killers?

If I'm not mistaken according to Justin, Sue was in her bathrobe.
Here is a single-mother, at home alone, late at night with her 2
young sons, a 12yr old guest and her teenage daughter. Why would she
open her door at that time of night for complete strangers with all
those children in the home? It sounds like she loved her children and
would not willingly place them in danger...This leads me to believe
she knew the killers and let them in the cabin.


3. Did the killers exit out the back, because that's the way they came in?

Sue, Johnny & Dana had to already be deceased or unable to move in order
for someone to remove Tina from the cabin without a fight from one of the 3.
But what struck me as odd was that I think I read somewhere that one of the
killers took Tina out the back door and then returned to the cabin?

Where did they place Tina in that short period of time?
Were the killers parked out back?

Did they place her in this shed that I keep hearing about?
If they placed her in a nearby shed or something this tells me that whoever
did this was probably familiar with the layout of the resort maybe?

When they removed her they must have bound and gagged her or immobilized her
to feel safe enough to return to the cabin without fear of her escaping where ever they left her.

4. The killers wore glasses?

This is the part of this crime that bothers me the most. It might be nothing
but I looked at the description of these killers given by Justin and I found it
very strange that they BOTH wore glasses. Not that it isn't possible but I'm trying
to picture this in my mind...

Did Justin say if these were sunglasses or regular prescription glasses?

If these were sunglasses can someone tell me how do you commit a brutal, savage
crime like this, late at night and during the entire killing...
(which I believe took place over the course of several hours)
you and your partner in crime are wearing sun glasses the ENTIRE time?

That makes no sense to me....

Were these prescription glasses? 2 Killers who both happen to wear prescription
glasses? Again, I find it hard to believe that based on the magnitude and the rage
displayed at this crime scene that something so horrific can be committed by 2 guys
wearing glasses....

I might be way off on this one...but something about the description of these guys
with glasses just doesn't jive with me.

5. Justin ONLY covered a wound on Sue?

According to Justin he covered a wound on Sue's chest, did he not notice Dana & Johnny
tied and gagged on the floor? He only noticed a wound on Sue? He had to walk right past
Johnny & Dana to get to Sue would he not?

Was he traumatized?

His recollection of the crime seems a bit odd to me....

He remembers watching the Love Boat, He remembers seeing 2 men with glasses,
He remembers seeing Tina abducted, He remembers Dana getting hit as he tried
to run, he remembers covering a wound on Sue, He remembers getting pulled
thru the window in the morning, He remembers being afraid to go home and then
deciding to go home and make sure HIS own mother was still alive???

He seems to remember certain things in GREAT detail... that's why I can't understand
why he would have enough compassion to place something over a wound on Sue but
seem to have no memory of trying to help Johnny & Dana tied up and gagged on the floor....

Why didn't he try to untie them? Why didn't he call for help?

How did he manage to go right back to sleep?

I realize he was only 12 at the time and there's a very good chance that there is a
very good explanation for all this...but his response to what he just witnessed seems
very bizarre to me...
===================================================================================
I have quite a collection of notes but I'll stop there for now. Also I hope the stuff
I posted above doesn't offend anybody, that's the last thing in the world I want to do.
I just felt like sharing a few things that have been on my mind about this case to try and
contribute to the discussion to offer some new ideas.

Thanks
Last edited by kevB on Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.
The Absence of Evidence Is Not The Evidence Of Absence
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Postby mrs.mcglovin11 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:32 pm

Did Justin go back to sleep? How did he not wake up the other boys to try and get them out or at least let them know what happened? Im leary to believe most of Justins recollection of the night. I think he was coached. But why? Who or what is he covering for?
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Postby jhancock » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:04 pm

Hi Kev,

Thank you for joining us here and for your insights!

I definitely think the killers were inside the cabin already, and that perhaps the boys surprised them by coming home. Maybe the killers knew the boys were out at various parties, and suspected they would be home much later than they were. The theory that whomever picked them up hitchhiking committed the murders doesn't come up much anymore, though that was the general belief when the murders first took place.

No signs of forced entry. I think Sue knew them; plus Justin's eyewitness account that Rally refers to.

There were unidentified fingerprints and bloodstains found on the back staircase, which suggests the killers might have left from there. I don't think Tina was held in a shed or playhouse; I don't think the shed, playhouse, or floorboards have anything to do with where Tina was kept. I think she was put in a car and driven away immediately.

Did one of the killers return to retrieve something? to check to make sure the victims were dead? to cover Sue's face out of guilt? to communicate with Justin, such as "get back in the room and don't come out till morning"?

The glasses/sunglasses is weird. Could Justin have been providing a false description to point the suspicion somewhere else? Did someone tell him to provide these bogus descriptions?

I think the case could have been solved quickly through Justin. But something is totally off about his recollections. And now he claims he unlocked his memory and knows who committed the murders. To this day, I am shocked he would make this statement and I know for a fact that this statement alarms the Sharps and the Wingates. He says he has gone to the police and they're not interested in his statements. My sources say he never went to the police at all.

Thanks again, Kev, and others who have contributed here.
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One of the BIGGEST clues in this case

Postby kevB » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:59 pm

Thanks everyone for the feedback...

I was always told if something doesn't make sense there's probably a LIE in there somewhere.
The responses I received confirmed what I felt all along, this case CAN be solved and it all
centers around Justin.

I'm not going to pretend to 2nd guess him but surely he must understand that people
on the outside looking into this case clearly see that the most bizarre part of this crime
has to do with Justin and the other boys being left alive.

The biggest clue in this case in my opinion has to do with the abduction of Tina and
the leaving of the boys. If you focus in on those 2 actions you can start to build a
profile of your killers...

Even though I have already put together my own theory of what happened that night in the
cabin I still plan on purchasing the DVD soon to get some more insight.

I expect to see this case blown wide open by whatever Justin plans to reveal
The Absence of Evidence Is Not The Evidence Of Absence
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Postby justamom » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:05 am

Hi Kevin, Would you mind sharing your theory? I, too, find leaving the boys there, very interesting. I also wonder what the FBI came up with on their profile. I still find it odd that they [FBI] left this case so soon during the investigation and with so many loose ends. Did they really bow to local law enforecement or was it something else?

Does anyone know what Justin is currently planning to do with his story? Is there really a book in the works, and if so, does anyone know when it might be completed?
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Postby Rally » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:26 am

One question I always had, was if Justin saw this crime happen, with two people commiting the crime, and four victims, why was he not noticed. If the Sharps or Dana saw him, they probably would have told him (Justin) to run, and if the bad guys saw him, he would have been killed too. **Unless he knew who they were**
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Postby mrs.mcglovin11 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:25 am

why would the killers want to keep justin alive if he knew who they were? you would think that that if the killers knew he was there and saw him that they would want their loose ends tied up and get rid of justin. that is one of the biggest mysteries of them all.
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Postby not sure » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:44 am

One thought I had was maybe Sue, in trying to protect her children, told the perps the kids were all out spending the night elsewhere. She may have given them a very elaborate lie, maybe even making up friends' houses the kids were off staying at. Johnny and Dana walking in would have surprised them but Tina walking in would really have thrown them off. They may have just decided to split without checking the rest of the house for witnesses. Nothing in this crime suggests they were experts.

These perps left evidence all over the place, and part of that evidence was 3 possible witnesses. These perps have just been very lucky up to this point. If Justin really does remember, hopefully he'll do the right thing.
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Postby mrs.mcglovin11 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:06 pm

Sue trying to protect her kids makes sense. If the perps were Marty and Bo they would have known that Justin was at the house that night. I personally do believe that Johnny and Dana did walk in on the perps and Tina woke to the noise. But Justin being in the mix and being a witness throws off everything. There is a reason that he is alive. I dont think he was seen by the perps.
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Postby kevB » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:18 pm

Hello everyone,

Thanks for the feedback...

Even though I am new to the board, I can bring a unique perspective to this case.
I was born and raised in Los Angeles. I grew up in a place called Pacoima which sits
inside the San Fernando Valley.

When I was right around Justin's age, me, my brother and my sister had an aunt who
lived in the projects and she would babysit us for my mom from time to time.

We had spent the night at her apartment one night and when we woke up the next morning
and went upstairs she was laying across the bed dead... she had been stabbed to death.

We found out later that my aunt was heavy into drugs and owed a drug dealer alot of money
and apparently he came to collect. I will never forget that as long as I live because I slept
thru the whole thing. there was talk later on that my brother may have seen something but
If he did he blocked it out and we just never talked about it anymore.

This happened back in 76'. I remember the fear and the terror I felt. I remember all the
screaming and crying when my cousins (her daughters) found their mom that way.

It's something you never forget, although I didn't witness the crime I remember seeing my
aunt's body on the bed.

I said all that to say this...
I know what it's like to be asleep in a room and have someone you know murdered in the next room
and I was also 12 at the time. I know my situation is alot different than Justin's but we do
have a few things in common.

I have a hard time believing that Justin remembers anything new from that night.
when you see stuff like that at that age you don't forget it, so I think whatever new
information he shares may very well be something he has known all along.

Of course I wasn't there with him that night and i'm not trying to say he isn't telling the truth,
but I have seen something horrific like this close up and I will never forget what I saw.

I have been studying this case for about a year now and I hope one day these families can
find closure. Eventually I will post some of my theories on what I think happened that night
but my notes are so extensive that it will take several days to post it all

Like I said... Justin is the key...
I think he has known all along who the killers are...

I don't think that night started out as premeditated murder
but it quickly got out of hand when Johnny & Dana came into the cabin

I think it's pretty clear why they took Tina...

I also think the killers knew Justin... I think after the damage done to the furniture
and the walls if the killers had wanted to get to Justin and the boys...
they could have done so...easily

I can explain this in greater detail later about why I feel like Justin and the killers
may have know each other

I think the 2 boys were left alone because the killers may have been reassured somehow
that they were no threat because they were asleep

I think Justin was left alone because doing something to him could open up a
whole new can of worms for these killers...

There's something much more going on here that eventually will come out in the open

Of course as always this is just my 2 cents and it may not be worth much
because it's all purely speculation
The Absence of Evidence Is Not The Evidence Of Absence
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Postby meankitty » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:54 am

justamom wrote:Hi Kevin, Would you mind sharing your theory? I, too, find leaving the boys there, very interesting. I also wonder what the FBI came up with on their profile. I still find it odd that they [FBI] left this case so soon during the investigation and with so many loose ends. Did they really bow to local law enforecement or was it something else?

Does anyone know what Justin is currently planning to do with his story? Is there really a book in the works, and if so, does anyone know when it might be completed?
I have heard he was writing a book, and I think it's finished or almost finished. I don't think the perps knew him and the other boys were there. I think the only way they knew about Tina was she walked out and was spotted. The fact that there was a blood smear on the boys bedroom door leads me to think the perp had his hand on the door when Tina walked out. I think maybe Sue didn't scream because she didn't want any kids to wake up, walk in and get hurt.
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Postby mrs.mcglovin11 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:09 pm

If Sue had told the perps that there were no kids in the house or was trying to protect them and then Tina walked out, you would think that the perps would want to search the house. Unless they knew who was there to begin with.
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Postby meankitty » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:48 am

mrs.mcglovin11 wrote:If Sue had told the perps that there were no kids in the house or was trying to protect them and then Tina walked out, you would think that the perps would want to search the house. Unless they knew who was there to begin with.
It is possible that the perps thought that John, Dana, and Tina were all the kids that were in the house. I don't know if they even realized there was a basement bedroom.
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Postby Rally » Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:04 am

That senerio would mean the perps did not know the Sharps. If they knew Sue, they would know the kids were somewhere around.
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Postby Night Rider » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:21 pm

"Know" is a rather abigious term, I can think of maybe a few dozen examples.

Do you know all your neighbors? Maybe enough to kill one of them. But does that mean that you really "knew" them?

Some of you people need a little more knowledge in real investigations. In a homicide, like most other violent crimes, there are random cases. But most of those become fairly obvious pretty quickly.

I have always felt that the random card was played very early in this case, maybe even that night.

"Connect the dots" should have been elementary in this case. And yes, that does includes the Meeks boys as "dots." Which I believe has been done. As far as I know, they were cleared early on.

But what about Chucky Boy and Henry? Why were they ever picked up to begin with? More smoke and mirrors?

One of my "shadows" would not have been known to anyone up there, while another one would have been known, per Marilyn.

I think the evidence is very clear, there was a clear target. Craig tried to argue one point with me about logistics, his argument made no sense.

I made this question on the other board: Order of occurence?? Stupid killers do not try to complicate things. I have said for over four years, "This was NOT Plan A." think about that
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Postby kevB » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:25 pm

Excellent Point Rally,

That has been my feeling all along...

If Justin over heard one of the perps call Sue by name there is a good chance that they knew she had children. If they knew she had children and grabbed Tina when she came out of the girls room logic would also have them to check and see if her other children were there as well.

These perps had just committed a violent and horrific crime, they took the time to take Tina from the scene. I'm sure they would have taken the time to force open the door to the boys room if they had really wanted to get in there. They stabbed the walls and furniture, if they wanted in that room there is nothing that would have kept them out.

Why commit this type of crime and carry away Tina without going into the room across the hall? These perps had nothing to lose and had passed the point of no return.

I believe these perps took care of anyone who would and could identify them. I think if others were left it was because the perps knew they would not have to worry about them because they were either asleep or threatened.

Again, this is just my 2 cents and it may not be worth much because it's all pure speculation
The Absence of Evidence Is Not The Evidence Of Absence
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Postby kevB » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:33 pm

I remember reading that there was a pile of clothes between the door of the
boys bedroom too... not sure how reliable the information is though...
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Postby Rally » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:34 pm

If I remember right (tell me if I am wrong) there was also a blood smear on the kids bedroom door. I am on my phone, and it is hard to navigate around to check.
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Postby jhancock » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:46 pm

I can say pretty confidently through my sources that there was blood on the doorkob leading into the room where the boys were. But I've never had an official source confirm that the door was blocked by laundry or clothes.

A long-time rumor was that a chair had been placed under the doorknob, but I don't think that was ever confirmed either.

Hoping to get to see more of the crime scene soon, but a lot of my previous "connections" are disappearing on me!
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Postby Night Rider » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:48 pm

I don't remember about the doors, but there was supposedly a bloodstain on the are of the back stairs.

And it was reported years ago about the bloodstain around the door handle of Sue's car parked in the back.
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