The Matchbook

facts surrounding the Keddie Murders, for beginners and up

Re: The Matchbook

Postby dmac » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:18 pm

PCSO contacted Sheila many times. Maybe I'm reading far too much into it- and I believe I haven't paid enough attention here:

LE is interviewing Sheila by phone, asking weeks later about mom's cigarette buying habits.

Sheila remembers mom went to the corner store for a pack

LE mentions in evidence reports only one cig was left in the pack on the table by the couch.

Sue was attacked in bed, not on the couch. What about a pack there, what was found by LE?

Very damned good point. I have no clue about what point you had, lyn, but it made me rethink a lot of cumbershome shit.

To clarify, I've always presumed LE asking about smokes was because of tha pack found on the couch, and LE wanted confirmation about what Sue bought and how often. The 'single cigarette' Q answer I've always proffered is based on Sue being on the couch. It's been YEARS since we realized Sue and Tina were attacked in bed. EVERYTHING- including the sole cig in the pack in Sue's Corner, and the almost full pack of Camels three feet away, needs to be rethunk.

LE knew the attacks began in the bedroom. They knew the Camels were from killers. Yet we are still barely beginning to accept where all this shit began.

Tape, cords, wire, blood. Victims. Young boys woke up and knew.

All this shit happened within two minutes, including the screams. In the back bedroom.

Why would the killers move the victims to the living room? My best guess is because Johnny and Dana entered and changed the dynamic.

LE were asking Sheila about the Camels found on the couch, not mom buying a pack on Saturday. That Q was DIRECTLY about why a pack of Camels was found on the couch. It doesn't change the fact we're being lazy by not rethinking everything based on where the attacks began- in the back bedroom.

Thanks, Loonabus, for making me rethink the bigger picture.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby Shellsbells » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:52 pm

Being a smoker, If it was me, I would save the last cigg to smoke the next day before I ran to the store. Need that cigg first thing in the morn.

I have a question.. Do we know if Johnny smoked? Im thinking Dana didn't because of being Diabetic, but I have seen diabetics smoke. Kids of parents that smoke sometimes start smoking themselves pretty early.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby dmac » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:06 pm

The fundamentals:

I believe LE asked Sheila about cigarettes to explain the killers' nearly-full package of Camels on the couch.

Marty mentioned missing a hammer, not a pack of smokes? That proves the dead cocksucker is completely innocent!

The pack with one cig was found on the table where she spent all her time on the couch. "Sue's Corner" is not a derogatory term. Archie Bunker deserved his chair, likewise Sue had her spot on that corner of the couch. it was her spot.

SHE WAS NOT THERE WHEN THE ATTACKS BEGAN.

Read for yourself how Don Stoy felt enabled to convey basic info about what he found in some areas of 28, but would not discuss what he found in other ashtrays. Bullshit, folks.

Back to reality: Other than the near-full pack of Camels found on the couch, there's nothing to concede about anybody but Sue smoking even recreationally. Sue seems to have been an avid addict, yet nobody else in the clan followed. Rings a bell. Smoke makes me want to vomit on those smoking. Their stupidity, my valid response.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby tpgen » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:12 pm

The cigarettes could have fallen out of the breast pocket of one of the men when they leaned over to throw the cushion on the floor while staging the scene. Anyone with a belly knows when you bend over with cigarettes in your shirt pocket, you have to hold those smokes in the pocket or they just get pushed right out. Sue smoked menthols so they weren't hers. Are they in evidence?
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby tpgen » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:17 pm

Because you always save one for morning.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby Shellsbells » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:02 pm

tpgen wrote:The cigarettes could have fallen out of the breast pocket of one of the men when they leaned over to throw the cushion on the floor while staging the scene. Anyone with a belly knows when you bend over with cigarettes in your shirt pocket, you have to hold those smokes in the pocket or they just get pushed right out. Sue smoked menthols so they weren't hers. Are they in evidence?


I disagree. At least with how the cigarettes got there. Yes when you have a belly, this can happen a lot. But with this scene, I think they were either staged, or left there and forgotten in the rush to get out.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby lynabus » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:32 pm

dmac,
I found the pun intended hilarious..Loonabus lol anyways, here is my rough attempt at wrapping my head
around this cig/s angle of the crime scene. Yes, I believe that Sue smoked like a chimney.
Leaving the lone cig in her pack, in her corner was her signal to go to bed. I have my own corner on the couch and I know
that when I am down to one cig, it's bed time. I want that first cig in the morning just as it was stated above. It's just something about that first morning cig...don't get your boxers in a bunch, I quit the nasty habit.
As for Johnny or Dana smoking, it's a possibility, did anyone see them smoking? Was anyone ever asked? Most likely not! Did Sue decide to get up and sit on the kitchen floor and smoke a cig? AGAIN, not likely. However someone/s did smoke in the kitchen, hence the ashtray found on the floor. 1981 children were able to buy cigs for their parents, I did. I also could buy cigs in a bar for $1.25 a pack...all I needed to do was search under couch, chair cushions for change..I only needed 5 quarters...my have times changed. The pack of Camel's was most likely purchased at the Back Door lounge on one of the many trips made by MMB/MB.
Did the BDL have a cigarette machine? They gave out matches, so it could be that pack of Camels was recently purchased.
As much as I want to believe that pack of smokes was just left there, anyone could have picked them up off the floor and set
them down and in the madness forgot them. Especially if they were doing all this in the dark. Why didn't the killer/s see them sitting there? Maybe they didn't know they fell out or asssumed they belonged to one of the victims. Yes, I think I will rethink this through some more.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby phoebe » Sun Mar 27, 2016 9:52 am

Samantha Mulder wrote:I am a smoker, and while it is hard to imagine the killers stopping for a smoke during the murders, it is easy to imagine them doing so as they undertook the arduous process of moving and staging the bodies. Whatever the killers may or may not have been high on when the attack began, lifting that much dead weight post-crime would be extremely tiring, possibly causing someone to sit on the kitchen floor and have a smoke break while his buddy continued the work. That said, with saliva evidence being generally well-known in the early 80's, it seems counterintuitive that killers who had gone through the trouble of turning off lights and taking pieces of evidence would be so sloppy as to leave butts behind, along with a pack of Camel cigarettes.


I read that Marty and/or Bo were both heavily into speed and that syringes had been found in number 26. Is this fact or simply rumour? At any rate it appears that one or both of them liked their speed. Anyone high on speed would smoke like a chimney, pretty much chainsmoking. Speed would also give someone an abundance of energy.. Also, people on speed tend to fixate and obsess over details of a task, not concentrating on the larger task at hand. For example someone on speed decides to clean out their shed. They fixate for hours upon hours on sorting out individual items, unti at last, exhausted and realising they've run out of energy and enthusiasm, the contents of the shed are chucked unceremoniously back into the shed and the place is more of a mess than it was in the first place. This kind of fits with the crime scene - the energy needed to move deadweight bodies around several times and also to carry out an apparently sustained attack, the apparent obsession over certain parts of the crime scene yet the obvious stupidity and complete and utter lack of thoughts around other areas.

It would also give someone an inflated sense of indestructibility and/or invincibility which could tie in to why they felt they could stay at the scene for so long and even return to it again later.

Being high on any drug would allow the mind to dissociate from the event because the mind can attribute the event to some kind of dream or fantasy land that isn't quite "real". Being high on speed would certainly explain the odd "logic" that seems to be applied by the killers at the scene, that most of us can't fathom.

Probably not important anyway, but that's just my 2 pennies' worth.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby dmac » Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:42 am

Yep, I think the reason for the single smoke has been fully explained, and further proves Sue had gone to bed for the night, and that the attacks began at 1:30 in the back bedroom.

I believe the kitchen ashtray is 100% a killer's, chilling while waiting for the others to return from stashing Tina's body.

Yes, BDL had a cig machine. The Gen Store also sold them. As Plumas and Keddie were supplied by Rykoff, both the lodge and gen store would have had bowls of those matchbooks everywhere.

The position of the cigs is very telling.

ImageImageImage

The pack seems to have been tossed from left to right in the photos- in other words, tossed from the direction of Sue's Corner. The pack is relatively full, but several are missing, otherwise it would have been too tight for smokes to slide out. Also, the top cigarettes are further out of the pack, indication not only the force of the toss but it shows something akin to laminer flow: the higher cigarettes had less drag from weight and friction, so traveled further from the pack. This tells me the smokes were not picked up and placed there, but landed there with some force.

The speed / syringes stories came mainly from Loon, but I believe others (mainly Meeks) also discussed it, sometimes agreeing and sometimes not. Tellingly, Marty died of AIDS, presumably from dirty needles. As for Bo's proclivities, they aren't connected to the syringe stories. They had several drinks that night, and illicit drug use could have happened as they left the bar several times that night. I don't think Marty needed drugs to do what he did, but any drug- including the booze- would only exacerbate his brand of crazy.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby dmac » Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:16 am

PS, I meant to call out and thank tpgen and lynabus for the explanation on the single smoke. Being a non-smoker, the importance of that single ciggy to a confirmed addict, plus that it was found on the table in Sue's Corner rather than on her nightstand, tells me their explanation is not just plausible but spot-on: it was being saved. Sue had her morning smoke set aside, found at her morning/day/night spot rather than her sleep spot. According to Sheila, Sue bought a pack on Saturday. Sue smoked that entire pack- all but one, leaving it in Sue's Corner for the Sunday morning cup of coffee and that first smoke.

Sue had an ashtray and a coffee cup gravity-stamped into that corner. She needed coffee and smokes. She wanted a cup of coffee and that final cigarette as her Sunday wake-up.

It brings up a few things:

The killers may or may not miss the contents on the table, including the smokes, as that table was disturbed. As was the general area. Sue's purse was on the floor directly below the table (which is probably where she left it when not out to buy things). Johnny's wallet was found directly behind Sue's Corner of the couch. The cassette/radio was on the floor, within inches of the purse, near where much of the cutting of electrical cords took place. The radio does not appear to have been plugged in when CS photos were taken, and logic dictates the 6' extension cord used to loosely tie Dana to Johnny in postmortem staging may have been taken from the radio. Cassettes were found on Sue's table, as well as the table where the knives were found. The footstool bloodied shoes, etc, in the same area show signs of disturbance, rearrangement. The other end of the couch, near the entry to the kitchen, was shoved up against the wall long after victims had bled out.

The killers spent considerable time in Sue's Corner, due to the crimes, the staging, the location of cut wires, and that the errant pack of Camels were apparently tossed onto the couch from that very direction.

Sue's purse contained about $5 in food stamps, but I don't immediately recall cash found (it was change). I know when I was skint, I usually tucked a few dollars away. I even had a habit of building up large sums from paychecks, as I found it difficult to hit the bank in the days before direct-deposit, teller machines, or debit cards existed. Here's the point, and it's a damned SMALL point: On Sunday morning, had Sue not been killed, where would she get the next pack, and with what money? This mainly ties into the idea that her budget was desperately short. The Gen Store was closed on Sunday, as I recall, so she'd buy at the restaurant or bar ASAP. With what money?

There's so many ways to go with this, so I'll stick to the above obvious stuff concerning where evidence was found, cash and food stamps on hand, locations of purse and ciggy and Johnny's wallet, etc.

It brings up a lot more, but I'm out of time.

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Re: The Matchbook

Postby lynabus » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:12 am

dmac, I will respond to this when I have a little more time. Thanks
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby Mamma_C » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:51 am

I can't find the doc listing the contents of Sue's purse, but I feel like it might have included a check book? I remember before ATM and Debit cards, everyone wrote checks and everyone accepted checks. Not just for the rent but for smokes, for beer, for sandwiches.

Even if there was no money in her account she must have known that a check written on a Sunday would not have made it to the bank for another couple of days, with another few to clear her account. Assuming a pay day of the 15th this would have been a safe bet on Sunday the 12th. Or she could have post dated it for the 15th. Speaking from experience, the ability to work check writing to your financial advantage was truly a blessing when faced with poverty.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby lynabus » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:42 pm

A pack of cigarettes in 1981 was $ 0.46 , that's 46 cents a pack. I started the filhy habit in 1986 and they were $1.25 If Sue had change she would have been able to purchase a pack, no sweat.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby justice17 » Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:55 pm

lynabus wrote:A pack of cigarettes in 1981 was $ 0.46 , that's 46 cents a pack. I started the filhy habit in 1986 and they were $1.25 If Sue had change she would have been able to purchase a pack, no sweat.


Right! Cigarettes were inexpensive back in the day. So I guess We all agree that the single smoke was kept for Sues Sunday morning cig and coffee? She smoked menthol cigarettes anyway, NOT strong Camels. I had a lot of female friends that smoked. None of them smoked camels. That was a man cigarette. I realize that this is not Groundbreaking, concrete evidence, rather my opinion from experience.

The camels were left there by the killers. I bet their fingerprints were all over that pack. Of course they had a smoke break!
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby dmac » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:42 pm

so here's the bigger Q: who was smoking on the kitchen floor if the pack of Camels was already lost on the couch by another killer? Did that pack on the couch come before or later, or is it the same damned pack?

It's about timing, lighting, visibility. I think the murders were sudden and very much about timing. And lack of lighting, lack of visibility.

My best point: no way that killer lost an almost full pack of smokes on the couch without the same killer recognizing he'd lost a pack in the struggle. THERE WAS NO STRUGGLE.

It was a different killer fully involved in the murders who left the Camels. Not the same person smoking on the kitchen floor.


Just a very logical equation. Think it over before getting angry.

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Re: The Matchbook

Postby lynabus » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:23 pm

I will think more on this overnight, however before I forget to jot this down, Sheila spent the night next door in the downstairs bedroom located in the back, like Johnny's downstair (basement) bedroom, did she really walk around to the front of the cabin and enter the front door or did she climb the back porch stairs and enter from the kitchen? If Johnny and Dana came home at midnight, did they go down to his room first? The cabin was dark and would have known everyone was in bed asleep. Did Sue wait up for them to get back? I know I can't sleep until I know my kids are home, safe and sound before going to bed. I have so many questions and scenarios in my head. Lets see, Sue went to bed shortly after the boys returned, had one cigarette left in pack, glasses found on her nightstand, boys downstairs and hear noise upstairs and enter cabin from rear into the kitchen and encounter the killers attacking Sue and Tina. Johnny and Dana are subdued by killer/s and eventually killed, now I am not sure who died first and where but it is a good possibility that someone was stationed outside in the back of the cabin and attacked from behind and brought into the cabin. Johnny was probably the first one in, as it was his Mom in immediate danger and was attacked as soon as he entered and Dana right behind him saw what was happening and tried to escape the same way he came in and encountered the outside lookout.. My mind is all over the place right now. Muffled screams could have been Sue or Tina or both,if Mike really heard them at 1:15am....female bartender heard a woman talking at around 2:30am and dropped her keys, that voice was Marilyn who then went back in the cabin and sat in the kitchen and smoked cigs until the others returned from hiding Tina, which was probably close by down by the river. The others return and stage the scene and stab, and pound the hammer some more in a frenzy and smoke in the kitchen, meanwhile the pack of camels are sitting on the couch and when they finished smoking they entered living room, surveyed the scene and did a little more staging of the bodies and then exited the cabin via kitchen door, leaving it slightly open, to avoid touching the doorknobs. That's all I got for now, and of course this is my random thinking and not factual.
Not mad at all lol tired yes, mad about this senseless crime and mad that it was not closed sooner, there are many individuals that know more than they are saying, so glad that, that's about to change ...some people should be very very afraid.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby dmac » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:11 pm

Mamma_C wrote:[Sue's purse] might have included a check book?


Bingo. A check book was found in her wallet/purse. Written checks were listed, such as rent paid.

Sue's big purse bag was found on the floor beside the couch in her corner, but the actual wallet/purse thing was found on the table. That's something else to speculate about: why was her hand purse outside of her bag purse?

Sorry, lynabus, I just cannot read huge solid blocks of text. It makes me dyslexic, it turns into a block of shit with no meaning.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby lynabus » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:02 pm

It turns into a block of shit for me too, I know what my mind is thinking but to actually try to put it into text, it makes me sound crazy, so please forgive my psycho babble as I was diagnosed as being dyslexic as a youngster. I don't take offense to it, as I sometimes have a hard time reading through what I have jotted down, but if you pick it apart, there are some things in there that are worth mentioning.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby tpgen » Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:47 am

Shellsbells wrote:
tpgen wrote:The cigarettes could have fallen out of the breast pocket of one of the men when they leaned over to throw the cushion on the floor while staging the scene. Anyone with a belly knows when you bend over with cigarettes in your shirt pocket, you have to hold those smokes in the pocket or they just get pushed right out. Sue smoked menthols so they weren't hers. Are they in evidence?


I disagree. At least with how the cigarettes got there. Yes when you have a belly, this can happen a lot. But with this scene, I think they were either staged, or left there and forgotten in the rush to get out.

The cigarettes were not part of the staging. As an experiment, walk up to a smoker and take their cigarettes. Then DON'T give them back. Left or forgotten? Yes.
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Re: The Matchbook

Postby dmac » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:25 am

I think it was Mamma_C who first mentioned the check book.

Go back. Way back to the 1980s. We're talking about cash known to be on hand, and checks. Sorry, debit cards were just being introduced to Joe Schmoe.

Yes, I can almost guarantee Sue was writing checks based on funds that would not be there until the check was processed. Yes, I remember that.

I also remember not fucking things up by handing out checks that resulted in $30 of "processing fees" if they bounced. I knew the money would be there, and the checks would clear.

I never risked $30 in fees over a pack of smokes. Did you?

Sue's checkbook added up.

It may lead nowhere but it needs an eye.

Anyone that can, please look at all contents of the purse(s) and checkbook, including the reverse work I did on the note.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=515&p=6409&hilit=contents#p6409

Not that it's remotely important, but were checks missing from Sue's book? Is anything amiss? I damned certainly know one thing is:

The purse is described by PCSO (Stoy, as I recall) as neat and tidy. Which purse?

Why was Sue's hand purse out of the main purse? Never addressed by LE to my knowledge, just that her purse was neat and tidy.

Thanks, Mamma_C for kicking me in the ass, all this time later.
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