Phone cord / Tina

facts surrounding the Keddie Murders, for beginners and up

Phone cord / Tina

Postby dmac » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:57 pm

There's been a lot of talk in the press, and rumors, and police talk, about phone cord being used in these crimes. No phone cord was used on the victims found in Cabin 28. As a refresher, the only known phone outlet in Cabin 28 was in the girls' bedroom, at the NW corner. The phone line ran on poles between cabin 16 and cabin 25 to the western (rear) side, running through the backyard of 28. The phone lines split off to all the surrounding cabins. The lines went into the back walls of 28 and 27, as found in crime scene photos of Cabin 28's exterior.

Nobody found in the cabin was tied with phone cord. There is no mention of cut lengths of phone cord found at the crime scene, nor are any bits found in the crime scene photos I have. However, there is this photo:

Image

I've shown much more of this crime scene photo than the topic is about, which may be a mistake: I do want to keep on topic, and I've shown a lot in the photo (almost) solely for points of reference.

This photo shows a length of phone cord, with one end clearly cut and sticking out straight (to the left). The cord is looped about 5 times in a roughly 5 inch diameter.

The diameter and number of loops is CRUCIAL to the math which follows (remember junior high math?). We need to determine the diameter and number of loops. The best estimate of the diameter is based on the width of the arm of the couch, which I gauge at 5-6 inches. It is in the foreground, so the loops of the cord are slightly smaller, so I gauge the diameter of the loops at roughly 5 inches. Now, here's the math.

Take the radius (half the diameter) of the circle, which is 2.5 inches roughly.

2 ×3.14 ×2.5 =15.7 inches of cord per loop.

5 loops of 6" cord = 6.66 feet.
5 loops of 7" diameter loops = 9 feet.
7 loops of 7" diameter loops = 12 feet.

by totally overestimating the size & number of these loops, there is still no way this phone cord reached the outside wall of the girls' room, where the phone outlet was. Cops said the phone cord was cut. Look at the photo and tell me what you see.

Image
That's an orientation shot so you know what you're looking at: the couch, Sue's hair, where she was dragged into place. The folder and accompanying school literature spread on the floor, with the jacket (Dana's?) put on top. Please don't comment on the other aspects, as those must to be individually addressed.

Where was the phone cord cut in the girls room? This cord is cut on at least one side, so where was the other end?

The cord came in from the outside wall, and I doubt like hell the killers moved the bed to clip the wire at the wall. That wire ran from the back bedroom into the living room, where the murders occurred. I doubt like he** the killers moved the bed to clip the phone wire.

By my math, this cord was not used to constrain a living victim found at the scene. If Tina was bound with phone cord, was it prior to death? That does not fit the scene at all. Was she bound with phone cord postmortem? That fits the entire crime scene, but makes no sense because they took her from the scene. So does this really say Tina was taken after staging, just to dump her body miles away to make the scene look like it was more about Tina?

In my opinion, Sue was the target, and staging Tina was a red herring to point to Tina as target.

To be very blunt, even with overstated estimates, this photo tells me phone cord is unaccounted for... perhaps used on Tina, the only victim missing from the scene. The phone cord is a game-changer for many potential reasons:

The killers came to the house with a kill kit, yet only used med tape they brought to immediately constrain the victims.
The killers used many household objects as weapons or postmortem constraints. Most of these were used postmortem, including the butcher knife, perhaps the bent serrated knife on the floor (too weak to be responsible for much damage), the table leg (W4), etc, The cords on Sue, Johnny, and Dana were all tied AFTER DEATH, imo. Those cords were appliance-grade cords taken from kitchen and household appliances in the living room and kitchen. The phone cord appears to be taken from the girls' room, where I believe the attacks began. It is a lighter-grade cord, used to restrain Tina, an early victim before Johnny and Dana barged in and failed to overcome the killers.

The other cords (black appliance utility cords, and one white extension cord) were used as pure staging.

The use of the phone cord was, imo, real. Used in the bedroom to constrain Tina, all the other cords were used as postmortem staging to make it appear as though the use of phone cord in the girls' room was NOT significant. That also explains why they looped up the remaining cord and left it in the front room: a lazy disassociation of the cord from the girls room, where it was used to bind Tina.

What do YOU see in this photo?
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby Eastern » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:06 pm

I think maybe the perps got the cord out of the bedroom to use and then wound up not using it. I don't think it was used to restrain Tina at any time.

The cord came from the bedroom and ran under the carpet (was there carpet or a rug in the girl's bedroom?) like Rick implied in the doc, would be my guess.
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby CuriousKitty » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:06 pm

Pardon me in advance if this has already been batted around (I don't recall seeing it), but is that a big bloody foot print underneath the "J" in picture #2? It looks to me like a boot print but perhaps it has been discussed and eliminated at some point.

Again, apologies in advance if this is a previously-discussed topic.
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby dmac » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:41 pm

CuriousKitty, I've long considered that "smudge" to be an anomaly in the print. I was looking at it earlier today, trying to find any instance of that carpet stained or smeared. I came up with jack so far, and I have been really looking. My print shows that "smear" is in the photo and not an anomaly of my print. I totally see what you see, and it's bugged me for a long damned time, but it still looks like an anomaly ON THE PRINT, not something in the crime scene. Definitely worthy of lengthy analysis. Remind me to address it again if I lapse.

Eastern, why would they cut rope (phone cord) from the bedroom, then loop it and leave it in the front room, by the table where they displayed the knife and hammer? The bedroom was carpeted, wall-to-wall, beginning at the doorway. The hallway was laminate plastic stuff, as I assume the bathroom was. How do you go with that theory? To me, you are explaining your own theory, just as I'm affixing the evidence to assume the shape of my own theory. But let's shake our bull and look at the phone cord for what it is. It was too long to go "under the carpet" and too short to reach the outlet, and it was wound and left on the floor by a killer. Not a cop.

The damned wire was wound and put there by a killer, so let's address the fact the phone cord WAS used that night for SOMETHING! To hell with our theories, just concentrate on the wire and what's missing.

I doubt like hell the cord was pulled from the outlet under the far wall (where Sue's bed was). It makes sense to just pull it, but there is only 10 to 15 feet of looped wire there, which would NEVER reach the outlet IF THE WIRE WAS ON TOP OF THE CARPET

We're looking at lots of "maybes" here, so eat pet theories and tell why wire too short to reach the outlet in the girls room was left, neatly looped, under the table the same killers posed weapons that may (hammer) or may not (knife) have been used in the killings.
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby Chichibcc » Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:52 am

In the"Cabin Tour Two" Video when Sheila and Ricky are in her and Tina's old bedroom, she doesn't seem to recall a phone cord ever having been there, or there ever having been a sign of one there (starting at 3:01).

But If the phone hookup went through the back walls of C28, how could a cord have not been going through that room, since it was towards the back of the cabin?

I don't understand going through all the effort to get the phone cord if it wouldn't actually be used for anything and be left on the floor.
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby SGRider » Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:47 am

We know from the crime scene photos that there was a phone in the living room at the wall, the wall that is next to the boy's bedroom. It was next to the TV stand that had the pet cage on it. The floorplan drawing done by PSCO doesn't even show that phone, nor any extension jacks. Does anyone know where extension jacks were in Cabin 28? The left part of the cord in the photo seems to be stretched behind the wall into the kitchen. I'm not saying that the cord wasn't cut and placed there, just thinking out loud I guess.
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby dmac » Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:51 pm

yeah, you must look at the photo. I suppose that's exactly what I should have done to start this post, but I wrongly thought the photo clearly shows loops of phone cord neatly discarded near the very table the knife and hammer were posed on. I think the phone cord is the killers posing things without realizing it's a huge mistake. They were aware of the knife and hammer they posed on the table, but totally forgot about the phone cord, Camels, bloody glass, bloody handprints, etc. Bo and Marty and Marilyn were morons. The phone cord is posed, yet it was not at all part of the staging. It was a huge mistake.

Pigs had to disguise their mistakes!

As promised, here's a crop of the full-rez scan, showing the phone cord:
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby Eastern » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:57 pm

Chich, I haven't looked at the doc in awhile, but didn't Rick say the cord ran under the carpet in response to Sheila saying she doesn't remember any phone cord in the bedroom? I do remember thinking at the time that Rick knew where it had been and said that to clarify. Anyway, imo Rick knew and said where it came from, so I didn't give it much more thought. No clue where LE came up with or got the info that Tina helped them gather the cord.

dmac, I'm not so sure the phone cord is any big clue. The killers were jackasses and under the influence; they didn't do everything meticulously and with the meaning to deflect. I haven't seen anything or heard anything to show Tina was bound in the cabin. No sign that the cord was used on the other victims, so why not that they gathered the cord with the expectation of needing it (Bo saying, "Yo, Marty get all the cord you can find") and didn't wind up using it? I also think the killers may have been spooked by the Seabolt's dog going nuts and left before they finished their staging.
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby Chichibcc » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:38 am

Yes, he did, and that seems like a plausible explanation to me, since Sheila couldn't recall there ever being one in the room.

I, too, wonder where the idea came from that Tina used the phone cord to "help"the killers out-because since it wasn't even used on anyone and was left coiled on the floor, that doesn't seem likely.

I wouldn't be too surprised if this theory came from Doug Thomas as his way of trying to justify why she was so "integral" to the investigation. :roll:
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby azucena » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:46 pm

Dmac I am curious what reasons you have to believe Sue was the target and Tina was a "red herring" ?

I have always wondered if a big reason the murders happened is because of some issue with Tina. Maybe Sue was the intended target, but there are some pretty large issues concerning motive having to do with Tina:

She was removed from the scene

She may have been pregnant

She had been molested

What are your feelings about motive in this case?
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby dmac » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:41 pm

hi, az- I've addressed these points a few times, as recently as here.

Tina was removed from the scene purely as staging to draw attention away from Sue as target, just as Dana and Johnny were abused after death and staged to equalize the trauma Sue received while alive.

So far, all the 'Tina was Pregnant' stuff I've seen comes from one source, like gossip. And for her to quote child molester Shanks as a source is like someone trusting Jimmy Swaggart that they've got a free ticket to heaven. These rumors need to be substantiated- or at least given more (and better) attention- before I can give them any weight. I'm not discounting them, but nor will I regard them as remotely trustworthy rumors at this point.

Yes, Tina was molested a full year prior in a case PCSO screwed up. Again. The perv was never in trouble as a result, he got a free ride, and he had no motive in the Keddie murders. Unrelated, imo, although troubling and disgusting.

I'm out on true motive. What I do know is, of the victims found in the cabin, the rage was pointed at Sue, and the boys corpses were brutalized after death to try to equal the trauma Sue suffered. They went to great (and incredibly inept) lengths to achieve their goal of staging the murders, and took incredibly stupid risks to do such a lousy job of it. The terrible lie that is the Reno trip puts Dee Lake in the center of disposing of Tina's body later in the morning of the 12th. If all the Plumas cops are in Keddie, it's a cop-free ride to Butte to dump Tina, so- although incredibly stupid- the risk was actually damned low.
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby dmac » Thu May 26, 2016 4:19 pm

If anyone interested in the phone cord has been paying attention to my rambling memories of the recent trip to Q, the story of the phone cord is conclusively told:

The killers had access to the rear wall of the girls' room, where the phone line entered the house. The placement of the big bed allowed Tina access to her side (closest to that back wall), so the killers also could have cut the cord directly from the wall.

Also of note: in the "Cabin 28 Tour" vids, there's talk about "maybe the phone cord ran under the carpet". Nope. Other than a strip of shag laying on the floor between the beds, the girls' room floor was bare wood.
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby justice17 » Thu May 26, 2016 4:49 pm

The main and only phone line was cut by the killers,then they took the phone inside off the hook? I really do believe that Sue received a phone call that night that really bothered her...
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby dmac » Thu May 26, 2016 4:58 pm

It's quite possible the phone was left off the hook by Sue, but none of the kids mentioned it- or noticed it. The killers, though, would have cut the cord from the phone to ensure it wasn't used... so why did they choose to do it from the bedroom wall, coil it up neatly on the LR floor, yet never use it for binding? Surely, it would have been sturdier than the tape they brought, and would have been in keeping with the idea they tried to promote in their staging: "it was a crime of opportunity where only items found in the cabin were used."

What was the damned point in getting that cord AFTER the tape had already successfully bound the known victims? Does it tie into the downed laundry line? If so, how much of either cord / line was missing- if any?

All things we'll likely never know.
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby justice17 » Thu May 26, 2016 5:19 pm

I speculate that there was an argument the night of the murders between Sue, Marde & Marilyn -regarding rumors. (Tina pregnant,Marde making a pass at Sue...etc..Bo creeping around...whatever.

They walk down to Sue's house around 10 pm and have "words".

MMB return to their cabin. Marilyn is angry. She has a fight with Marde and says she is going to bed. Marde calls Sue on the phone (NOT Jan). I believe Sue left the phone receiver off the hook. (I did it many times in the 80's while fighting on the phone with my then Boyfriend).
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby justice17 » Thu May 26, 2016 5:26 pm

And call me crazy, but I dont think Marilyn thought they were going to kill. I think she got involved in the aftermath because Justin put on his shoes and walked home somewhere between 2-4 am and said "they are all dead over there Mom". (Justin mentions he was afraid to go in his cabin because he was afraid his family was dead). Why didn't he have someone walk home with him?

Because nobody was around?
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby justice17 » Thu May 26, 2016 5:31 pm

And those shoes? What happened to those shoes? - Marilyn
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby dmac » Thu May 26, 2016 5:34 pm

I do know Sue received what many believe was a threatening call ("who is this?") and I believe she was going around looking for kids to stay the night. I've seen nothing to support the idea there was any argument over the shift in music, ergo no need to call the bar prior to returning to make up with someone they'd never fought with. There have been multiple instances where Loon changed her Toon, vaguely saying "Marty called SOMEONE and was very mad"

The part about Marty calling Sue isn't very plausible, because he was in the bar, so he would had to have gone straight home to make that call to Sue...

Whenever he was to have called Sue, from the bar or whatever, it would have been shortly before they entered the cabin and screams were heard. Had Sue just gotten up to answer the phone and leave it off the hook, she never would have been back in bed, asleep or ignorant to the fact people were creeping up on her.

Sue was utterly, 100% involved. No doubt in my mind. Show me any of this BS about Justin's shoes is anything more than another Loon fabrication.
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby justice17 » Thu May 26, 2016 9:11 pm

Sue was utterly, 100% involved. No doubt in my mind. Show me any of this BS about Justin's shoes is anything more than another Loon fabrication.

Oops, you meant Marilyn was involved.

Only other mention of shoes is from Nina and she stated that her Ex Jim told her that it looked like Marty was burning men's shoes in the fire the morning after 187.
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Re: Phone cord / Tina

Postby rcarlisle001 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:51 pm

I think they hit Sue's bedroom first. I think they tied up Tina and left her in the bedroom and took Sue to the Living room to torture her and eventually kill her. I fully believe they planned to take Tina for sexual purposes before killing her. When the boys came home they were tortured and killed with Sue. There is no way they took Tina dead when they left 3 other people there dead. Sue was the intended target and Tina was just an added benefit to these disgusting men.
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