Sue's Gag Determined

facts surrounding the Keddie Murders, for beginners and up

Sue's Gag Determined

Postby dmac » Wed May 25, 2016 5:22 pm

This is determined from autopsy photos I've recently been allowed to see.

The first layer of Sue's gag are the panties stuffed in her mouth. Wounds to her belly indicate the panties had been cut off of her.

The second layer was the bandana, tied tightly enough to hold her mouth open.

The third layer was the tape (not the last, as the ME indicates in reports).

The final layer was a bra found in the house.

It is now believed my premise is true: the Sharps used cardboard boxes a lot including as laundry baskets. The killers needed a box, so they threw the clothing out. The bra probably came from the laundry in the room.
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
reach me at
keddie28 AT gmail DOT com
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3209
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 709 times
Been thanked: 2666 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby Cheshire » Mon May 30, 2016 2:59 pm

4 layers of gags (2 of which were undergarments)?! I'd love to hear what a criminal profiler would have to say about that. It's obviously well beyond what would have been needed to keep her quiet, and it makes me think someone was really pissed at her for talking about something.
Cheshire
 
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 155 times
Been thanked: 112 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby dmac » Mon May 30, 2016 3:18 pm

And the fact so much blood was on the outside layers, too. It's a huge message.

Here's a way to look at it most probably haven't.

Loon said Marty hated Johnny because he had a smart mouth. Yet Johnny didn't have the hammer damage to his teeth and jaws that Dana and Sue did.

Nor was there much damage to Tina's skull and mandible, once recovered.

The first layer of Sue's gag was the panties cut from her body and stuffed in her mouth. How early could that happen?

►Screams heard at 1:15.
►Bo admits they went home and changed clothes before returning the last time to the Back Door.
►Justin tells PCSO one killer was wearing a 'denim jacket'
►Blood-spattered and smeared denim shirt worn by a killer found on the table under the posed weapons.

There's a lot to be said about the meaning of the hammer blows to the mouth (including why would Dana be hit in the mouth, too, if he was collateral damage?). There's also been no attempts at determining if any of the hammer blows were postmortem. We know stabbing and W4 damage was, so why not some of the hammer blows?
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
reach me at
keddie28 AT gmail DOT com
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3209
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 709 times
Been thanked: 2666 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby sparkplug » Mon May 30, 2016 4:26 pm

What are the chances of the hammer retrieved from the pond having DNA on it? Would it be bone or dentin, enamel or cementum from a tooth/teeth that would be imbedded somehow in the steel of a hammer? I couldn't see blood DNA still being on a hammer, but I'm far from an expert.

Also, I remember a refrigerator that was unplugged that held DNA evidence. What are the objects that have or will be, in the future, examined for DNA? I remember an entity offering to do DNA testing a year or two ago. I guess we are in the dark about that for a good reason, hopefully, now that LEO's are finally on the right track without impediment from higher up.
Last edited by sparkplug on Mon May 30, 2016 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sparkplug
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 9:06 am
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby sparkplug » Mon May 30, 2016 4:31 pm

Or, are they looking for Marty's hammer being engraved by him?
sparkplug
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 9:06 am
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby billyc1048 » Mon May 30, 2016 5:50 pm

dmac wrote:
Here's a way to look at it most probably haven't.

Loon said Marty hated Johnny because he had a smart mouth. Yet Johnny didn't have the hammer damage to his teeth and jaws that Dana and Sue did.



It is possible that Marty didn't bash in Johnny's teeth because people already knew that he hated John and that by doing so would point directly at Marty. Seeing as so much of the murders were staged, this might be just part of it.
I blew out my flip flop, Stepped on a pop top,
Cut my heel, had to cruise on back home.
billyc1048
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 2:06 pm
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby dmac » Mon May 30, 2016 6:19 pm

Gamberg and I have discussed this. Due to Marty's history of defacing his tool, once the hammer is cleaned up we fully expect it to be engraved with his typical message:

    "If found please return to
    Martin Ray Smartt, murderer
    c/o Plumas County Sheriff Doug Thomas"
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
reach me at
keddie28 AT gmail DOT com
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3209
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 709 times
Been thanked: 2666 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby dmac » Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:02 pm

billyc1048 wrote:It is possible that Marty didn't bash in Johnny's teeth because people already knew that he hated John and that by doing so would point directly at Marty

So why did he beat the shit out of Sue? If he was thinking ahead while killing these people, Sue's body would have been pristine for your logic to be correct. She was the target, and everyone else collateral damage.

In fact, evidence points to the staging as meant to hide the fact Sue was the target.
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
reach me at
keddie28 AT gmail DOT com
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3209
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 709 times
Been thanked: 2666 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby colie707 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:02 am

It's clear sue was heavily gagged for one reason... to NOT wake up the boys/justin!!
Its very clear sue was the target.
I wonder now... if maybe she was already being binded & gagged with the first lawyer when the boys came home...

after the killers woke up sue... they took into the livingroom where the attack started.
Maybe the goal was to bind/kidnap her...move her to the woods or isolated location for a sexual assult.
why risk killing her right there in cabin w/boys & neighbors being sooooo close by??
Maybe at first sue was cooperating w/the killers... out of fear for the kids!!
The killers weren't probably expecting the older boys to come home.
I think as johnny & Dana came thru the front door they were attacked. I think Dana tired to run that's why he was hit in the back of the head...

I think johnny was probably subdued & killed first.. that's why he didn't get hammer blows to the mouth. Maybe While this why was happening...

I think sue started struggling against her binds & started to yell in panic seeing her son attacked... marty & bo would have started putting on more gags to keep her quiet at that point!
I think killers plan started to spiral out of control...
So they finished off sue & dana ... then decided to take Tina after she woke up from all the commotion...

I think keeping the boys/Justin from waking up.. was the real reason.... she had layer after layer of gags.
colie707
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:27 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby dmac » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:26 am

If they were serious about gagging Sue to silence her, why begin by cutting her panties from her body? In doing so, they cut her. That action was a statement, not a method to <re>gain silence.

The gag on Sue was also akin to closing the barn door after the horse has escaped: Screams were heard at 115 am. The damage was already done.

If the screams heard at 115 am were loud enough to wake a couple over 100 feet away- through two exterior walls and windows- how could anyone in 28 have slept past 115? EVERYTHING points to Sue, Tina, and the boys being awakened during the earliest stages of what began as a home invasion.

Blood in the bedroom indicates assaults on both Tina and Sue very early in the crimes.

Due to the condition of the bodies, it appears Dana died first. Staging also suggests this.

The panties and bra used in the gagging- particularly the way the panties were cut from Sue- suggests a degree of sexual motivation behind the gagging- almost as if it were part of the elaborate and sexually humiliating staging that went on with Sue later.

We also don't know what condition the killers were in at the time. They had access to drugs, and gave inconsistent stories of how much they'd had to drink at the bar. How much did they really have? Did they begin drinking prior to going to the Back Door? Marty, Bo, and Loon were all addicts- with Bo, in particular, having a history of alcoholism. Marty died of AIDS, probably from IV drug use. There's a very good chance April 11 was being treated as Marty's fake birthday, and their idea of a party started early and eventually grew to involve Cabin 28.
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
reach me at
keddie28 AT gmail DOT com
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3209
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 709 times
Been thanked: 2666 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby dntblvu » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:23 pm

Well, I don't know what to think or just how to look at sue. Could mart marylin and bo have gone there thinking they were going to party with her? Does anyone know if they ever partied together?
dntblvu
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:13 am
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby dmac » Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:31 pm

Nope. To This was a premeditated criminal act, pure and simple.

I'm simply lining up the fact that Marty used to have two birthdays- his real one on May 11, and his fake one (military, etc) on April 11. I've suggested, for years, that what went down in 28 was partly because Marty felt entitled to giving himself a gift.

Yes, he was a sick POS. Still, I have no doubt that with Marty's relationship with crooked members of PCSO, he felt entitled to getting away with crimes. We've proven time and again Bo felt protected by LE and, therefore, entitled to Do What Thou Wilt.

For 30-plus years, the killers were right.
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
reach me at
keddie28 AT gmail DOT com
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3209
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 709 times
Been thanked: 2666 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby sparkplug » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:44 pm

Sue was gagged, as we know. They didn't want her to speak, and that shoots down a ton of theories. Think about that.
sparkplug
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 9:06 am
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby dmac » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:18 pm

Can you elaborate on some other theories? I don't remember many off the top of my head, which isn't surprising as I tend to slough off things that don't line up with fact.

I recall many so-called theories involve hours of Sue and others being systematically tortured to get 'info' from them, which is patently horseshit.
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
reach me at
keddie28 AT gmail DOT com
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3209
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 709 times
Been thanked: 2666 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby Shellsbells » Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:54 pm

The cutting off her underwear, then gagging her with them.. Makes me think maybe someone was going to rape her and maybe Tina or Johnny and Dana came in in the process of it, or they wanted to scare Sue into thinking they were going to rape her.

I know nothing was stated on the autopsy report, but we now know that the report was bunch of crap. Dmac, has this angle been looked into already? and have you discussed this possibility with Gamberg?
User avatar
Shellsbells
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:35 pm
Location: Tucson, Az
Has thanked: 83 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby sparkplug » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:43 am

dmac wrote:
I recall many so-called theories involve hours of Sue and others being systematically tortured to get 'info' from them, which is patently horseshit.


Exactly what you just said. You can't get info from someone that is gagged.
sparkplug
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 9:06 am
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 40 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby dmac » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:26 am

Shells, after years of discounted spec, the facts are:

The killers planned an attack, knowing full well Justin was having a sleepover. Conventional wisdom dictates that, since Justin's involvement came after Sheila's attempts at a sleepover at 28 had failed, MMB 'may' have been aware Sheila was sleeping at 27 and Tina was back, unusually, at 28 Sat night. However, it's just as likely Justin asked if he could stay over at 28, and MMB thought Sheila would be there. Anyone thinking Tina was the target needs to substantially qualify exactly how the killers knew she would be at 28.

We don't know if MMB knew Johnny would be there, as Johnny determined his own path on a seemingly moment-by-moment contradiction of prescience. As such, Dana's invitation to spend the night was certainly on a whim, and none of the killers knew he would be there. So, the killers at least KNEW Sue, Justin, Rick and Greg would be there. They went in knowing Justin would, by default and without his knowledge, become a major part of whatever transpired. That's how sick and twisted Marilyn, Marty, Bo- AND REMAINING POIs- were and are.

With the sexual nature of the crimes, it's easy to explain it away as beginning as a sexual assault that was interrupted and, therefore, escalated and became much bigger. However, given Marty's statements BEFORE and AFTER the murders, plus the fact they KNEW the others were present (INCLUDING JUSTIN) when they entered the home, the killers went in knowing there would be collateral damage- but they just didn't care.

To me, the anger of Marty's statements, the anger displayed in the attacks, and the sociopathic lack of empathy for other victims the killers knew were there tells me one thing: They intended far more than a sexual attack. Violence and murder had to be part of the plan.
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
reach me at
keddie28 AT gmail DOT com
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3209
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 709 times
Been thanked: 2666 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby dntblvu » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:01 pm

Why sue instead of another woman? Just because she turned her nose up to them?
dntblvu
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:13 am
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby dmac » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:22 pm

Puh-lease.

You normally don't ask something so thick, so are you joking, or need handouts from the Logic Office on why Marty, et al, were after Sue?

"Another Woman"?! Name one that fit Marty's fixation, threats, and confessions.

And also explain how the "Loon asked Sue to the Bar BUT SUE REFUSED" is not one of the shittiest alibis, yet a perfect explanation for why Loon is actually a killer.
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
reach me at
keddie28 AT gmail DOT com
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3209
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 709 times
Been thanked: 2666 times

Re: Sue's Gag Determined

Postby dmac » Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:42 pm

Given the logic of my assessment three leaves back, who in their right mind would conclude Tina was the target rather than Sheila? Show me why Sheila was not the intended target and that Sue was a leftover? Prove Tina was the target, not Sheila! NOBODY EVER LOOKED AT SHEILA AS TARGET because they are lazybones MORONS. Instead, both Sheila and Tina have been considered a possible perp?! PCSO did one, and we did the other?

Wow, that pile of shit doesn't smell any better. Ring a familiar bell, Tina? We've done a MASSIVE disservice by not seeing the ever-present lack of logic in papers, theories, stories. We should have connected the dots long before.

Show anyone but Sue was the target, given non-existent 'ample' evidence otherwise. Explain the confusion: if it was Tina as target, Tina could/would have been taken many times that day without anyone ever noticing her abduction/absence. Sheila? Incredibly unlikely. So that means the killers KNEW Tina was home and SHE was the target?! EXPONENTIALLY absurd!

If Tina / Sheila were a mistaken target, the killers would have killed all in 27 had they felt their "target" was there. Explain that.

ANYONE THEORIZING "TINA AS TARGET" NEEDS TO EXPLAIN WHY EVERYONE IN 27 WASN'T ALSO MURDERED THAT NIGHT!

INSANE BULLSHIT! Black van out front waiting for radio contact to know that everyone in Keddie had seen their black van parked in front of 28, but they only wanted radio contact to know Tina MAY ACTUALLY GO BACK TO 28 from 27 so they can abduct her? Christ, this is black choppers insanity.

Sue, no matter her foibles, didn't abandon her kids that night, never was asked to the Back Door to be Bo's dickbag. Loon said "Sue didn't go that way" (sexually promiscuous), which is a huge lie element explaining the actual motives.

I believe Sue's sleeping with others led to rage, but that history was obvious long before Bo showed up. Logically, it was Marty (male slut) who was sexually fixated on Sue. Loon (female slut) would look at a tuning fork as competition to her own open-legged policy with DT, Stoy, DeCrona, Bo, Dee Lake, Tony, the Walke Brothers, Keddie Machete- or any spike that came up from the creosote along the WP line.

If Marty and Loon was an 'open marriage', I promise they wanted to fuck others (and did), yet would hate supposed paramours simply for being "the other". Their open marriage was a murderous bond of double-crossing acridity: Sue was never safe, no matter her level of interaction with the Murder Twins. All the killers needed was to feel lesser for Sue's supposed level of involvement in their lives.

It's clear from Martin's own words he was extremely jealous of anyone that would fuck his wife, despite fucking (or wanting to fuck) anything that moved. It's also clear, despite being known for fucking any soft rope that moved, Loon despised a man who would stray from her inter-continentally-stretched snatch.

Note how the terminology Marty uses for adults vs children (all levels) is "I only killed the girls."

That's from his recalled confession (whereby Crimely filed a false report denying it occurred), and it lines up with not recognizing females as adults, much less as equals.

It's a misogynist's very fear / stupidity which lies within any fact or fiction we've learned of Marty.

As you enter the girls' room, Sue slept just inside the doorway to the right. As the killers entered, the foot of her bed almost met the doorway. Evidence shows that sleeping arrangement had been so FOR A LONG DAMNED TIME. Tina and Sheila on the distant, bigger bed. Read my recent posts to keep up on CONCLUSIVE photo evidence.

Give me a series of events that hold true to the facts, and explain why Tina was the target and not Sheila?

PROVE why the target was NOT Sue.

PROVE A THEORY at all! The best "theory" input these days is proving a macro-feature of a theory is plausible.


I don't mean to sound derogatory or dismissive, but to foment charges and theories / explanations which contradict basic facts (particularly facts vs wild Black Van / Black Hat speculation) is simply unacceptable.

I've laid out almost all the cards I can publicly present, yet nobody's taken me up on something as simple as a logical, fact-checked debate?! With my lapsing memory, I'm an easy target- yet, still no takers?

Reddit wanted me to do a AMA a couple years back, and I asked to get Princess and Gamberg involved. As soon as I laid out that I wanted a fair discussion from as many sources as possible, the interest folded. Go Reddit! Proven Bastion of Internet Hypocrisy & Stupidity!

Sorry, I answered a few more Qs in one shot than I'd intended.
"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."
reach me at
keddie28 AT gmail DOT com
User avatar
dmac
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3209
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
Has thanked: 709 times
Been thanked: 2666 times

Next

Return to keddie facts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Boudreaux and 1 guest