"KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

facts surrounding the Keddie Murders, for beginners and up

Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby dmac » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:36 pm

If it's of any help, I can make the POV of my next pano shot completely up to where you would want to stand in that scene. Just tell me where the POV guy should be when making the images.

It's a 3-D situation. It can be higher, lower, left, right, anywhere in the model.
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby dmac » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:20 am

Just a note. The tight arc of bleed-out tells me the vix were dead and / or unconscious. Nobody moved around. Struggle on the walls is nothing compared to the compliance on the floor. They were controlled, maneuvered, slaughtered. Bo, going in, didn't really think much about it. When it became a felony, he took over, he had nothing to lose.

Just one theory.

It's clear from the interview tape that Bo had no idea he was free and clear on a quad he'd just done. Bo was an experienced hit man and frantic dimwit mob bitch in April 1981. He proved it. On tape and in how the murders were committed/staged.

"I woulda been in and out, blam blam blam!"
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby nekogirrl » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:32 am

i always assumed that sue was the target...since tina mostly spent the weekends at the seabolts, and johnny was usually at the meeks...that would leave sue there with the 2 younger boys and sheila. perhaps they thought both girls would be at the seabolts that night, leaving sue and the 2 little boys and justin...i dont think they expected johnny to be there, and certainly not dana...and as i am blind as a bat without my glasses, i can truthfully say that with just a little bit of light i can see shapes in the dark...remember, sue would have been walking through blood pools in her bare feet...she would have been able to smell it, as well...imagination would be filling in a lot of blanks...i have no doubt her prints got there because somebody dragged her around the room and made her look at what was done to those children..."this is all your fault...look what you made me do,etc etc"...
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby dmac » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:40 am

I look at it thusly:

When did Bo walk in, and what was the crime? Until blood was shed it would be B&E and charges dropped.

This escalated quickly, and they brought the tools to ensure it went by the book.

There is a tear, a breakaway between how the crime began and what they brought in their kill kit. They had so many opportunities to leave and tell the cops, "I don't trust this whore, we were checking on my son", etc. So many missed opportunities to de-escalate, yet this was full-throttle. This was no unplanned deal, the dirt is in the details and nobody can make logic of why they entered 28 unless it was to kill. kill kit, tape, kill. alibi. kill.

The more I look at the CS, the more I believe they went in with the intent as well as the kit. To this day they are dumb enough to think the surviving boys work to their advantage, when it's a huge red flag pointing to Loon and Marty and 26.
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby Cowgirlsunni » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:20 am

Dmac - Could you make Panos showing the different body placements in their order, to show how the body placement and staging took place. Do it in a series. They were here. Then they were placed here, etc.. I ask only if you have the time and desire to do so. It could help explain how the killers moved around the room.
The one you made showing the lighting was eye opening. Thank you for that.
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby dmac » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:32 pm

By the way, Azu, your opinion is perfect. You take on early misconceptions and deliver the correct verdict.
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby dmac » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:25 am

Gotcha, Cowgirl. That's a great idea. However, I will not show Sue in the position I feel she was originally staged. That's out of respect and also a plain gut call.

This will be from several POVs-- I'm just putting this together in my head at the moment.
I think the POV should reflect how the staging went down, body by body. Rather than one Point of View where the bodies appear in the succession of staging, these assholes are moving three bodies around to stage it the way they wanted it.

Who the fuck called those shots? According to Marty, he wanted Bo as his dad but also rolled on him faster than a roller coaster.

Bo.
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby dmac » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:25 pm

Something very important to notice is half of the "bleed out" spots are not. The Kz is not counted as bleed out by me. yes and no, but no. There are three areas around the KZ that are not bleed-out zones as I define the meaning.

There is VOLUMES of blood in the KZ, but that's when the victims were being processed. Not bleed-out after they were dragged off and ignored. Recognize the crime scene and the timeline. It ain't pretty, bitch.

I never believed "bleed-out" to be the correct terminology, and never believed exsanguiation to be any part of any MO. "Bleed out", to me, means spots where the victims bled out before being processed and finished. A huge difference. Dragged, dumped, bled from head wounds. And how they were dragged, in patterns, is far more important than most of the weirdness you'll pick up in the crime scene.

Look at that arc of blood spots, remove the kill zone. Viola. All you''re left with is the bleed out spots.

No shit, Sherlock.
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby dmac » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:18 pm

I haven't forgotten your request, cowgirl- I just got really busy over the weekend ad then I've been ill for a couple days.
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby Cowgirlsunni » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:54 am

No problem Dmac. I am happy and thankful you want to take the time to do it. I am sure these panos are time consuming to make, however, I find them very informative. I hope you get to feeling better.
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby dmac » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:40 pm

For an update on the 3-D models, go here.
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby dmac » Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:47 pm

Cowgirlsunni, I'm backing up further in time and will show the couch, and bloodstains around it, BEFORE AND AFTER the couch was shoved against the wall.

Is it possible to prove the person(s) who moved and covered Sue aren't also responsible for shoving the couch against the wall as, perhaps, a necessity for making room to move her? Yeah, I think it's possible to prove or disprove that point. with clarity.

I'm working on the couch-area stuff first, since it came before the 'final' staging.
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby justice17 » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:16 pm

dmac wrote:ANOTHER NOTE: this has been bugging me for YEARS but I keep forgetting to mention it. The knife and hammer was posed atop the bloody denim shirt. SO WAS SHEILA'S CLARINET / FLUTE CASE. All of that was POSED, so what the hell does her ajar case (it looks like the instrument was inside) have to do with the murders?!

I remember the photo with the weapons, nicely "displayed" on the denim shirt, along with Sheila's flute & case.

That's when I began to consider someone in The Meeks Family...for obvious reasons.
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby dmac » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:04 pm

Here are the mockups of the crime scene as bodies were placed in their final, staged positions. First up is the couch in it's original position, before being knocked up against the wall.

couch-unmoved.jpg

Next is the couch, after it was moved against the wall. There was also Sue's red gym shorts on the floor, touching the couch and next to the shoe. There was also a circular blood stain on the front of the couch corresponding to the position of the shorts, meaning someone bled out with their head on the shorts and also in contact with the couch.

couch-moved-a.jpg
couch-moved.jpg

Then Sue was moved into position. The locations of John and Dana are guesstimates, according to what gave the killers the best maneuvering room to stage the bodies in succession.

Sue1.jpg

Once Sue was in place, Dana was staged. He was on his back for a time, but he also was face down for a considerable time, as autopsy shots show thick, dried blood caked on the downward side of his face. This could NOT have happened when he was [barely] on the cushion, so he had to lay face-down in a bleed-out spot. Next was Johnny, who was picked up and lowered into his final position. Afterward, the flimsy table knife was used to stab him repeatedly in the chest, and the knife bent when it hit his ribs, so it was tossed aside. Then his and Dana's ankles were tied together with the extension cord.
john.jpg



I hope this is what you were requesting, cgsunni.
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby sparkplug » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:04 am

I know Tina is a touchy subject, but are there any indications of bleed out spots from her? Are you leaning towards strangulation with no stab wounds?
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby dmac » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:27 am

I do believe Tina died in 28 alongside the others, but her manner of death is pure spec no matter where she was murdered. Murad mentioned no real damage to her skull other than what he described as possible wildlife damage, but I did see a substantial defect to the zygoma, which is in keeping with damage done to both Sue and Dana. SEE HERE

With so few of her bones recovered, just because no stab/knife marks were on them does not exclude stabbing as cause of death.

I'm also leaning towards a contributing factor in Tina's being taken from the cabin is the killers simply couldn't bring themselves to do the horrific damage to an innocent 12 y/o girl that they'd done to the others. Recall how the therapist said the only time Marty became emotional when discussing the murders was when talking of Tina- otherwise he was flatline. Removing Tina from the scene would not only shift the focus of the investigation to Tina, but preclude the killers from having to mutilate her.

More here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1463&p=17995#p17995
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby Marius_Eponine » Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:41 pm

I agree with you about Tina, DMAC. Killing two teenage boys and a woman (or even Sheila, who'd just had a baby, had she been there) might have seemed 'different' or less reprehensible than killing a 12 year old child whom they barely know. Clearly, there was a line- and torturing a 12 year old to death was a step too far over that line.
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Re: "KILL ZONE" & Lighting Proved

Postby dmac » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:12 pm

This is just a few thoughts about a few ramifications if the bathroom light was the main constant, sole light: Why are blood smears supposedly on both BR doors and all exterior knobs?

The dimensions of stains on the girls' room door is most apparent on the OUTSIDE of that door, with sporadic blood on the jamb-side portion of the door, and the least amount on the interior face ending 1/2" from the jamb edge, and all stains on the interior side indicating an upward direction of the fingers. In other words, the palm side was on the exterior of the door, continues in a pattern exhibiting most blood was on the exterior, with the fingers rising upwards while leaving scant blood within half an inch from the interior edge.

These stains begin roughly 3" above the highest portion of the knob's flash shield, which tells me a killer opened or (at least partially) closed an already-ajar door. Check out the positions you'd use to open/close a door: pull closed or push open an ajar door while avoiding using the knob. How would you do it? Use a wet hand, do it natuarlly, then look at the pattern of water you leave behind.

The height of the door handles in 28 were standard. I've pointed out the heights of both vx and killers numerous times, and all their heights would normally put their hands inches above the latch/knob when handling an ajar door by it's edge rather than the handle.

Think of why you, as a bloody-handed killer, would OPEN a door. HOW?
Think of why you, as a bloody-handed killer, would CLOSE a door. HOW?

The lighting from the bathroom was the main, sole light. The killers weren't turning lights on and off. Sue and Tina were the first attacked, as proved by clothing and glasses and PHOTOS.

There was a sweatshirt found on the back of the toilet tank in the bathroom, and LE took that bathroom sink cabinet door, believing blood was on it. Perhaps thinking the killers spent time in their (the sole lit room) cleaning up (after all, there's indication they believe at least one killer cut himself). Furthermore, although Sheila had no known LE-written recognition of the pink pantsuit, she also didn't recognize that sweatshirt as belonging in 28. She also said there were a pair of shoes Tina used to where that MAY be missing.

Why would there be blood, as I described, on either the boys' or girl's BR doors?

A: We know the killers interacted with, at bare minimum, Justin from the boys' room.
B: We know the killers, at some point, went back to the girls' BR to scavange lamp cord, used in postmortem staging on Sue. The phone cord was cut from the rear wall beside Tina's side of the bed, wound up neatly, and left beside the table in the LR where the knife, hamer, and bloody denim shirt were posed.

OH HOLY FUCK. Marty and Bo DID go back to the bar in lighter versions of their disco suits! They had to have, to be seen blood-free. In those same clothes. AFTER screams were heard. Dammit, somewhere in the reports, there must be proof of what they wore when they came back, because that denim shirt was POSED there, and is as contrived as Sue's knife and Johnny's hammer: staging. In this case, the denim shirt says, "Marty and Bo were seen mugging John Travolta for his clothes. Meanwhile, the crime scene (AND JUSTIN) says at least one of the killers wore denim pants and shirt.

Back to the bloody doorknobs and doors: I've shown many of the mentioned photos in the past, and even enhanced real or theorized blood on many of these doors and knobs for all to compare. For the most part, I've since deleted them from the site, but I'm sure many diehards still recall (or even have) them.

LE found blood on all the EXTERIOR doors' knobs (often even on both int/ext sides of the same knob)- except, I believe, the basement doors. Hard to say, as there are no reports or photos. And I've seen blood AROUND the int side of the front door knob. For sake of transparency, LE could and should have photographed the int/jam/ext portions of ALL doors-- whether blood was apparent or not-- as they so well did with the Girls' BR door. I never saw such photos, ever, of other doors in the collection of all negs Gam had reprinted.

Jamie said (initially) that he went up the back steps after pulling the boys from the window Sun AM. He also stated the exterior back door was ajar. The print at the base of those back steps still tells me said owner was walking UPSTAIRS, not down. Either Jamie is a killer, or that print near the bottom of the rear stairs was made hours prior to Jamie going in 28, and F-ING DAYS PRIOR TO LE NOTICING IT.

========================

I wrote the above in the middle of the night weeks ago, and was tired and rambling. In revisiting it today, I cleaned it up for posting and, in doing so, had a major AHA! moment about the bloody denim shirt.

I don't know where I was going with this when I wrote it (half-asleep), but it had to do with whether the killers were walking in or out of the rooms (based on the blood patterns). Try it out for yourself.

It also had to do with WHY they would go in and out of the rooms. For the boys room, they needed access to threaten them, pull them into the action, force them into the closet. Any or all above. For the girls room, it's a given Sue and Tina were both immediately involved, but the killers returned for bindings (lamp cord) and to cut the phone line (they knew the boys were still alive, so taking the phone off the hook was to prevent access for the victims, and cutting the line was to prevent kids from using the phone after they left). Where they cut the phone line and neatly coiled it means something, otherwise they would have cut it at the base of the phone. Perhaps they wanted thicker wire for visual impact? All were certainly dead before wire was used, so the choice of wire meant something. Not to Marty, if he was being truthful when he said he'd "do your business and get the hell out".

Hmmm....
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