Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

facts surrounding the Keddie Murders, for beginners and up

Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby dmac » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:22 pm

I was watching a UK tv program yesterday which mentioned rigor will set much faster if physical exertion immediately preceded death. I'd never heard this before in my research on the topic. This is a game-changer.

Can you guess what I've been reading up on today??

Before you read on, I haven't found many answers/definitions that repeat the same conclusions, other than exertion speeds up onset. More importantly, I've found nothing that describes how much of a cooling-off period after said exertion is necessary for the impact to lessen, but it is mainly caused by oxygen starvation, meaning a very little time is needed to reverse the effect- if the vx is still breathing. Does this change our understanding of the scene? Think on this: Without a fuller understanding of each influence, and without knowing which victim(s) exerted themselves more than other(s), and knowing laying unconscious s enough to reverse the impact of exertion, all we've learned today is the sequence of events seems less set in stone than (I) we think.

I will only give one quote as it best, and most succinctly, states the comcemsus. It also means the cause is primarily oxygen starvation, which renders the majority of my last paragraph 'unneeded spec".

    "If the deceased has had a large amount of physical exertion prior to death, they may generally expend all their oxygen (and therefore ATP) prior to death (if for example, they are in a violent struggle to the death). This can mean that at the time of death, rigor mortis sets in instantly. This is referred to as a “cavaderic spasm”. The position that the individual is in at the time of the onset of this bizarre phenomenon may actually pinpoint a cause of death."

=============================================

Livor Mortis: Here's some interesting stuff I found today as a consequence of researching the prior. I'd never read these in my prior research on livor:

    livor mortis (postmortem lividity PML) - medical condition that occurs after death and results in the settling of blood in areas of the body closest to the ground causing the skin to change colors

    stages of livor mortis -
    30 min- first seen on fair skinned individual
    4-8 hours- all blood in capillaries sets permanently
    Between 1 and 8 hours- visible PML can be affected by finger pressure

=============================================

I've read up on this a lot today, so it's not necessary to clog this thread with links and quotes of contradictory info.

However, anyone with very good intel, particularly those with expertise or training in the field, is begged to step forward with a better, current understanding of these factors, and in particular their impact on understanding this crime scene.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby dmac » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:38 pm

I've literally spent four hours working on a single post detailing observations I've made while trying to make the crime scene models cowgirl requested. I'm going to have to back up and back off, as it led to me carefully studying the highest rez scans I have from the ME photos Forcino took (16,000 x 12,000 px). While exhaustively describing blood spatter on Sue's skin and gown, I found patterns that made no sense were it spatter. I also realized what I'd long thought was blood on Sues left knee area and buttocks was actually livor mortis, which the ME failed to mention in the autopsy report. I then realized what looked like spatter on her buttocks was actually petechiae.

I began researching petechiae again. I'm now fairly certain much of what I've considered to be blood spatter on Sue's exposed skin is actually petechiae. Therefore, I'm going to scupper what I've written so far in order to backtrack and further differentiate between what is clearly spatter, clearly petechiae, and what may be either.

There's clearly spatter on Sue, but much of what I thought to be spatter is likely petechiae.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby lynabus » Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:57 pm

A broader definition of ececchymosis is the escape of blood into the tissues from ruptured blood vessels. The term also applies to the subcutaneous discoloration resulting from seepage of blood within the contused tissue.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby lynabus » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:15 pm

Trauma is considered the main cause of petechiae spots on legs or other parts of body. Applying excessive pressure could cause the body tissue to experience stress that causes the spots to appear.

When blood capillaries on skin suffer an injury, it could result in hemorrhage. When red blood cells leak from capillaries, they can accumulate under skin especially if there is no opening or cut under the skin surface.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby dmac » Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:47 pm

Oh, bloody hell... LOL!
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby dmac » Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:33 pm

None of the vx struggled to death, as in drowning. I'm glad I posted what I found, but my loving science doesn't mean it has zero impact on this case. Other than Dana struggling for oxygen, it has zero effect on the bodies in 28.

Dana was strangled to death, so perhaps his rigor set quickly.

HMMM.....

That works against almost everything I've ever said, yet I'm the one to find the science and admit to my own misunderstanding of the conclusion(s) I've made. And post it for all to see. I'm not patting myself on the back, I'm just slapping maggots.

This dipshit ME missed most of the big points- Sue had livor mortis on two sides of her body AND rigor. THESE AUTOPSIES ARE WORTHLESS. As if they were part of the coverup.

In my book, this ME was fucking up at every stop on the Greyhound route, then jumping over to pick up lost opportunities from Trailways (you young-uns read a book to grow the balls to get that joke).

I understand Gam's explanation that the SAC ME office was overworked, but if they found lividity and livor mortis in Dana yet did not find it in Sue, why did Sue not die from strangulation and Dana not die of stab wounds? BIG to small, the ME missed so much obvious shit. As if the Sac ME was an option when DOJ were overtly willing to GIVE the talents of their covert cunts, Crimely?!

Imagine your loved one was sent to jail on this imbecilic, incomplete dogshit. Guess what, I know the system was so much fucking worse, and the guy who did the "lie detector" tests in Keddie is yet another top cop DOJ pig. Yeah, I said that five years back and he's the same guy who tested Zodiac cunts, and nobody seems to understand this is THE SAME DOJ.

THE SAME FUCKING CORRUPT DOJ.

SAM LISTER IS A CORRUPT PIG WHO HEADED THE ENTIRE DOJ POLYGRAPH WING, and he is as dumb and dirty as a shit dipped in pig waste.

Department of Justice?!

Sorry, this is so
FUCKED

Look up what I said about Sam Lister so lone and long ago in the dusty past:

dmac, on April 11 2011, wrote:Sorry, but anyone who goes on record defending the coverup of a career liar employed by LE and DOJ as a jailhouse snitch should himself be thrown in stir. God knows how many bullshit cases should have been overturned based on this snitch's lies, much less how the truth coming out would have exposed the systemic abuse of power and corruption in LE and DOJ based on trading favors to prisoners for faked testimony that falsely imprisons others. Again, Lister ain't on my list of 'good guy cops'.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby narmrn » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:24 pm

Great observation DMAC...I am inspired to do a little research. I have seen patients, both living and deceased with extensive petichiae and other w postmotem lividity and in my humble opinion each is easily distinguished from the other by visual observation. The victim in this case most likely to have exhibited petichiae would have been Dana....secondary to stangulation...and the resulting intense congestion of blood in the face, scalp, sclera of the eyes, and neck above any garrot. These petichae occur and appear during the stangulation but before actual death occurs...with lividity being a post mortem biologic process. Food for thought for me to increase my understanding ....I am off to refresh some physiology lessons from long ago.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby dmac » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:54 pm

What I noticed in the images appears to be lividity in certain areas, with other areas of sporadic petechiae which also overlap the lividity. Combined with the poor photo quality, it appears more like blood stain and spatter, particularly to the naked eye. Without the magnification coming from the high-resolution scan I made, I'd still think it was blood on her skin. Also there's occasionally deeper lividity at the edge of the affected area, making it appear even more like blood on, rather than under, the skin.

Remember that Dana was determined to have been manually strangled, face-to-face. No garrote was used.

There's a few complicating factors in regards to rigor, petechiae, etc, on Dana. First and foremost should be underlying health issues, the main one we know of being diabetes. Second is the actual damage caused by the multiple hammer wounds to his head while he was alive. They smashed his face, mouth, and skull with the hammer, which surely rendered him unconscious prior to the manual strangulation (keep an eye out for mentions of damage to the pons). Gamberg also mentioned that strangulation often doesn't take minutes, as is an oft-repeated belief. Considering Dana's condition prior to the choking, it may have taken considerably less time to finish him off.

I'll now quote all mentions of petechiae in Dana's autopsy. Of course, we know the ME screwed the pooch on these, but at last Dana's mentions the damned word. Of course, since the ME stated strangulation as a cause of death, he'd be more certain to include such backing info as swelling and petechiae.

===========================

"The face shows numerous tiny petechiae, and the conjunctivae both show focal hemorrhages and scattered tiny dotlike petechiae."

As for the brain: "Occasional tiny petechiae are present on the upper pons on section. "

"DIAGNOSES:

l. Multiple skull fractures with facial bone fractures and lacerations and
contusions of brain with brain swelling.
2. Meningeal hemorrhage, brain.
3. Multiple fractured teeth and loosened teeth.
4. Aspiration of blood, modest.
5. Ligatures, wrists and ankles.
6. Hemorrhages, deep soft tissue of neck with facial petechiae and facial
swelling--strangulation."

"BRAIN: The cerebral sections show numerous zones of contusion hemorrhage of the cortex and areas of subarachnoid hemorrhage are present. Lacerations of the brain are present with jagged edges which frequently show attached and nearby red cells. Petechiae are sometimes noted in the white matter."

"FINAL DIAGNOSES:

l. Multiple skull fractures with facial bone fractures and
lacerations and contusions of brain with brain swelling.
2. Hemorrhages, deep soft tissues of neck with facial petechiae
and facial swelling strangulation.
3. Meningeal hemorrhage, brain.
4. Multiple fractured teeth and loosened teeth.
5. Aspiration of blood, modest.
6. Ligatures of wrists and ankles.

CAUSE OE DEATH:
CRANIOCEREBRAL TRAUMA AND STRANGULATION."

===============================================================

The petechiea on the pons is what grabbed me years ago when I first read the autopsy. Damage to the pons is a massive red flag, as it controls breathing, balance, and even communication within the brain and basic senses like hearing. If that damage was caused by the hammers, it has a much broader impact in understanding Dana's death- and the crime scene- than were it the result of the coup de grace choking.

I know much of Justin's comments have been disproved, but he's often told the truth. One thing that stands out is his assertion Dana was stumbling around as if drunk (pons?). He also said there was a fight over in the corner by the TV. We know the TV was disturbed, but they also ripped the leg from the folding card table so maybe that's why the TV was shifted. We also know PCSO removed the chunk of wall behind the TV, which had blood but no knife marks on it. That seems to back Justin's story.

For Justin's details be true, it means Dana was up and moving around to some degree when the killers main goal would and should have been to contain the victims.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby sparkplug » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:05 pm

"I understand Gam's explanation that the SAC ME office was overworked, but if they found lividity and livor mortis in Dana yet did not find it in Sue, why did Sue not die from strangulation and Dana not die of stab wounds?"

How could the SAC ME possibly be overworked when it came to this case? This wasn't grandpa Joe dead from natural causes, it was a mass murder of horrific proportions and should have been their main prority at the time and detailed more than an 8th grader's report on dissecting a frog. BS garbage.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby dmac » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:55 am

Foremost is that the SAC ME isn't part of BCSO, PCSO, or the CA-DOJ. If this was so important a case as to make it necessary for corrupt DOJ SAs to be choppered in, why didn't the marvelous CA-DOJ also do the autopsies? NOOOOO! Instead, we had a local ME, whose work is clearly subpar, doing the work for another county that couldn't afford it's own ME. With Forcino manning the camera- otherwise we'd never have any photos. I'm surprised Thomas / Crimely allowed the guy to play with the camera or gave him film- as with so many stupid things they did, it's biting them in the ass. These guys really thought "nobody will second-guess our work! We're LE, we're above the law!" Their unfounded bravado is just as telling, stupid, and damning as Bo's and Marty's bizarre statements to Crimely.

No, this case was not a priority to be solved. That's the paradox: It was so important as to garner "top cops" from the DOJ, but the only reason these scum were involved were to work with the sheriff to pervert justice. This was such a 'big case' that it was a blip on the radar in the papers? No, despite Dougs love of posing for a camera, this case was given little attention, and when Dog talked it was to profess his moronic smokescreen theories, such as Tina was responsible, or the I-5 killer did it, despite making the front pages when he was arrested a month prior to Keddie.

Actually, that the SAC ME was in charge of three autopsies, and jammed them through his room so quickly, and did such shoddy work that we novices can pull it apart like a slow-roasted pork butt-- that's 100% what I would expect from the "Keddie Kaper".

9:50 AM: Dana
10:30 AM: Johnny

LUNCH!

1:30 pm: Sue
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby budrfligh » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:09 pm

If Dana was staggering about as I suspect he would after a blow to his head does this mean we should look at Philips story a bit closer? I'm of the opinion that he was dismissed and should not be. Drinking would cause some if the nonsensical bits of his story. I am also not quite over Dougiepoo's involuntary committing him to shut him up either. I tjink he saw something and then to find out he was a relative of the meeks as well? Maybe it's just me but I think he saw something and was scared silent after the asylum bit. I think he is a victim of this crime in a different way. Much like Justin.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby dmac » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:35 pm

I don't buy Phil's story whatsoever. First, he was knocked out loaded when he was dropped off at the church at 9 pm-ish, so he probably passed out and stayed so until woken in the morning by churchgoers. IF he went back to the Exxon to buy beer, what was he going to buy it with? He was broke on Sunday and using the murders as a way to rip people off in order to buy booze, so what money did he have to buy beer just hours before?

There's tons of talk about dark green trucks, but a roll bar? Cmon... on a 54-57 truck?! That feature also would have made it stand out like a sore thumb.

So, IF he went to the Exxon- which he didn't- he also just happened to arrive at the exact moment J&D finally got a ride- after HOURS of no success? And Phil, who would still be visibly drunk, had a reason to go to Keddie that night? Where was he going to stay that night? With Johnny? NOPE! With Marty? Under a tree?

What time did he not get to the Exxon? He was dropped off at the church at 9pm, which is about the last time PCSO timelines have J&D being seen at Exxon, although the Sharps' neighbor and his GF saw them walking back towards Q from the mouth of the canyon at 11ish. By that time, Marty and Bo and Loon were at the bar, so how could Marty be two places at once? And why would he be in a pickup truck when they supposedly already had Dee's car- although Marty told Crimely they didn't have a car that night, otherwise they would have gone to a different bar in the first place. Why would J&D accept a ride from Marty if they couldn't stand each other?

Why doesn't Philip describe how the killers entered 28? The true scenario simply doesn't fit the killers entering with J&D, as the girls were attacked in their room- and that means J&D had to enter the main floor AFTER the crime was in progress.

So, Phil's dropped off in Keddie with no explanation as to why he'd go there late on Saturday with no money, and he's hanging around 28 long enough that the murders are in full progress- so why didn't he hear the screams, then see Marty and Bo run home, then run to the bar wearing different clothes, nd back to 28 45 minutes later? Boy, he was hanging out at 28 long enough for the killers to have known of his presence SINCE THEY BROUGHT HIM THERE (!?), but they leave him alone.... Yeah. And how did Loon get into 28 if Marty and Bo went in upon arrival? This also means M&B already planned this by the time they were at Exxon, so they had to be carrying several rolls of tape already and trolling through Q in hopes of luring them into a truck?! And invited Phil along to be the silent witness? Wow, that means Sue and Tina weren't targeted at all, it was all about J &/or Dana? Riiiight.... And where did the third man go? He never says who was in the cabin, so Marty and Bo went home, got Loon, and spent a couple hours at the bar? What horse shit.

The moment he decides to look thru a window, Dana's getting hit in the head with a hammer while Johnny's getting a fatal neck wound and Sue's being choked? Busy living room. And- oh yeah- Sue didn't get choked, just Dana. And his sole effort to alert anyone is the mgr of the bar, who never saw Philip or never had someone try to alert him to ongoing murders? That makes it 2:15-2:30 AM...

As for the 'blue car', the bartender was a car salesman in his real job, and drove whatever he wanted on the lot, so of course he had access to a blue car. Too bad he didn't have a clue if he drove it that night.

Why didn't Stoy find the license # on the water heater? Of course, knowing Stoy, had something that incriminating been there, he would have lied and / or obliterated the evidence.

So, now the murders are complete- 4-5 am- and Philip's still hanging out. The killers have killed most witnesses, and threatened the shit out of the rest in order to leave Justin alive- which was mandatory. Yet they invite Phil to go for another ride, and he wants to get away from them but the invitation was so irresistible he decided to wait until they got to Gansner Field before making his getaway?! And, by the way, the killers want him to know they still had Tina?

That is the biggest pile of manure.

So, was this insane story made up by Phil or the cops? Was he just trying to get out from under charges related to a fraudulent fundraiser for the Sharps? Does that mean the cops arrested him for the attempted rape weeks earlier just to make him look bad for his upcoming confession about the murders? Visionary planning by the Keystones. Or was he a fucking nutjob who can't lie his way out of a paper bag? And why did he change his story by telling his mother he was IN THE CABIN?!

You can either believe that enormous pile of shit, or consider that he went a couple hundred yards further than the liquor store on Sunday morning, learned from the Meeks about the murders, and hatched a plan to scam money from the locals in order to get more booze. The latter makes far more sense than the former, which makes absolutely NO SENSE, particularly up against the barest of known facts.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby Magnum PI » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:36 pm

In cases of Asphyxia rigor can be delayed. Rigor can set in rapidly but the duration is short such as in a violent death, for instance electrocution, cut throat. Rigor always appears in the involuntary muscles first, within an hour. and post mortem ruptures can occur in a body that has been moved after full rigor has set in. A body can be moved or postured to any position and the rigor will fix.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby dmac » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:30 am

I need to read the aut rept on Sue yet again wall-to-wall. It occured to me the blood found in her lungs isn't expressed as minor or significant- I simply can't recall hence my renewed interest. Perhaps the neck stab was bullshit. Last night I remembered while dreaming that Sue and Dana both had massive facial wounds from hammers while alive. Both had massive damage to teeth, with broken jaws and broken and loosened teeth. On top of all the other damage it's clear that both had to have enough bleeding in the mouth to cause aspiration of blood into the lungs.

In other words, the blood in Sue's lungs could be the result of the mouth/dental wounds. She was gagged and bleeding profusely into her mouth. She was struggling to breathe, and must have aspirated some of that blood.

Until further notice I again state Sue's neck stab may have been postmortem staging.

I rarely dream about the case but last night I was thinking this particular aspect over when I fell asleep and, while dreaming, I answered it.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby sparkplug » Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:16 am

Image
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby sparkplug » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:08 am

C'mon, D! That was funny.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby dmac » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:52 pm

Sorry, I don't get it. I'm also pretty damned tired.

I know the foto, but I don't get the ref between that dumb, lying, bitch and anything said here recently about ghosts, witchcraft, lying pieces of shit, etc.

I've got a big piece of news I must finish writing up, so please fill me in on why that scab is a punchline.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby lynabus » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:37 pm

Dmac,
I think the photo was based off your comment

I rarely dream about the case but last night I was thinking this particular aspect over when I fell asleep and, while dreaming, I answered it.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby dmac » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:45 pm

oh, holy fart-sniffing jesus, what damage! That I missed the ref AND that I believe in that psycho pedo-freak, Freud, before I would ever consider a dream to be anything but the subconscious mind.

Honestly, the idea of dreams being supernatural never entered my brain.

Accent on brain.
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Re: Rigor Mortis and Livor Mortis

Postby sparkplug » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:28 am

I know what you meant, it just came out funny to me. I also know how much you like the lady in the screenshot. Someone has to fuck with you every now and then. Lol
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