Drugs

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Drugs

Postby dmac » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:58 am

Drugs must be a major concern for the motive of the LE coverup. PCSO were dealers and handlers- at least DT and his henchmen. Why do I get multiple accounts of being arrested only if the weed wasn't PCSO ordained? Or an open squad trunk for after-school goodies? How the hell do multiple accounts of the same behavior surface over a five year period, 30 years after the murders?

Let's look into ONE SINGLE ANGLE for this post. This thread is open, but I wish concentration be expended on Johnny's drug history.

Johnny was said to have stolen a bunch of pot from the bus driver (yeah, school bus!) and her guy. PCSO determined Johnny was NOT involved, was duped, had no clue the ripoff was going down. By 1981 PCSO logic, Johnny and the drug-dealing bus driver arrived at a very contrived resolution: Johnny was. indeed, not involved, but he would pay them for one third of the take? Even innocent, he will pay? With WHAT FUCKING MONEY?

How fucking stupid must you be to buy that sack of burning turds?

Rod DeCrona, perhaps the biggest turd of the Keddie Murders, you're days are numbered. I hope you can't hide your fave gel up your ass when you're prepped for prison. Pervo fuck!
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Re: Drugs

Postby leenie963 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:42 am

Rod DeCrona, perhaps the biggest turd of the Keddie Murders, you're days are numbered. I hope you can't hide your fave gel up your ass when you're prepped for prison. Pervo fuck!


viewtopic.php?f=57&t=532&hilit=Rod+DeCrona

From 1982 until the very early '90s, DeCrona said that he did a lot of "dope work."

During one of those earlier years he was involved in snagging one of the largest marijuana plantations in the county's history. That was repeated last year when another very large amount was seized. During the 1980s, a large plantation was also seized in Sierra Valley. That one involved a lot of people. And there was a very big difference between the two plantations of the 1980s that involved American residents attempting to grow some dope to sell and the dealings today with the Mexican internationals and their cartels....
The sheriff's office used to do what DeCrona described as "buy programs." They would have individuals go in and buy drugs and then turn the individuals over to the officers. "In those days everybody was involved," he said. "I loved doing it."


Those plantation busts were the sacrificial lamb of local drug growers; no competition locally so the plan to move forward with a drug ring was in place. My speculation drug angle is that PCSO, LE and DOJ were in cahoots to have an interstate drug running plan in place to safely move product with LE on the take. Bo was sent for the Mafia to get it going and he hooks up with local yokels Marty and his morons. Only Bo doesn’t realize how batshit crazy Marty is with his hatred of women, including little girls like Tina. That night was to be nothing more than an evening out that escalated into quad murder. I do not believe the Sharps had anything to do with drug involvement other than typical teenage curiosity. The wounds inflicted on the victims, in my opinion, show it was not a drug hit, it was very personal and Sue was the target. LE was forced to cover the killers and accomplices tracks and move Bo the hell out of there. Enter douche bag Lake and paranoid Marty tags along hiding behind the VA rubber room scam.

Just so happens Loon is on her knees more than her wedding night(s) with Wade Meeks and takes advantage of her affair to use the Meeks for ‘protection’ while pointing blame and playing victim. Marty’s hubris can’t take it and not only returns to the Meeks, but heads back to Keddie to ‘finish what he started’. He ends up in jail shortly after, Wade is bunking in the next cell and Marty, now knowing about his slutty wife’s affair is more than livid, making the comments he did about the drugs and intimating about doing what he did to Sue he will do to Wade. He was free to say anything as LE protected him; he was untouchable and he knew it.

CYA was the name of the game. Thirty-five years later justice has not been served for Sue, Johnny, Tina and Dana.

Following the money is the rule of the game. LE, DOJ, PCSO, Bo and his Mafia connections left enough bread crumbs (pun intended) that leads to their involvement and the cover up.

Toady the case is hopefully nearing conclusion. National exposure was literally willed by the hard work and dedication of DMac and all the other forum sages who worked so passionately for justice. I truly hope it prevails.
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Re: Drugs

Postby dmac » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:04 pm

I believe LE drug running is the reason for the LE coverup. It explains the DOJ's presence and involvement with DT and PCSO far better than Bo, who was clearly stressed during the Tuesday interview. He had no clue his ass was already covered by those two pricks. There's plenty if indicators Crimely knew DT before April 11, and DeCrona was PLACED in Plumas by his corrupt daddypoo, a main player at CA-DOJ who, along with Bradley, created the very program Doug Thomas illegally chiefed as a result of Keddie.

DOJ were pushing white for the CIA. Congress cannot legally know about Black Ops and, therefore, cannot fund them. Instead, they're funded by America's home-made and racially driven 'drug epidemics'. Congress makes sleazy off-the-books profit from 'legal' pharmaceuticals- they're pushers. CIA makes dosh from the streets. No $7000/plate fundraising dinners for those equally horrid cunts. Jim Crow never went away, he just shape-shifted into a litany of new racist drug laws. Look around: Prison is a for-profit business, overstocked with non-violent drug offenders of color. With that fuckwit moron Trump in charge, Orange really is a new form of Nigger.

As early as Nam, CIA were importing heroin in coffins (see American Gangster or read up on Denzel's namesake, Frank Lucas). In the 70s-00s, CIA got coke via Bo's uncle, Hy Larner, in Panama. They distribute via DOJ and rural sheriffs. It's all very well covered. Watch / read "Kill the Messenger." Watch "Mena", if psychopath Cruise ever gets it finished. Watch the vid, "The Queen's Accident", it's been reposted on this forum a few times. Read up on George Bush, who headed the CIA in the 70s before being demoted to Veep and Prez. He knows Hy well. How else did Reagan inherit Iran/Contra? That was Bush's game.

Yes. This is really all about drugs.

As for "follow the money", that was Night Rider's mantra. Even when he was posting under fake names, he would pelt me with that line. He was, and is, right. I'd love to know what he knew. He was an eccentric, far more so than I, but he worked this case for a good decade prior to my real involvement (c 2010-11). I witnessed NR's mental downslide, and disengaged.

I address the obvious change:

FOLLOW THE POWER.

Money is like coke. equal but never better than power.
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Re: Drugs

Postby Ausgirl » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:37 pm

.. Hy Larner.. wut?

I got a LOT to catch up on.

Anyway. If we're walking down this road (again) - I was reading some blah about Mena the other day and thought of Quincy airport for no particular reason other than if drugs were being bought/sold/distributed in the area at that time, then there's a good chance some of it came in by air. And here we have a murdered family.. plus one who worked at the airport. Plus all the dodgy DoJ bullshit, plus Boubede.

So here's how I get to thinking when I go down this track: Why stage a sex crime to look exactly like a sex crime? Really.. why? Unless it was not a sex crime at all, in which case staging the thing to look like one makes a marginal lick more sense.

We all know Sue was not raped, despite the way she was bound and left posed. We know she did not die the way she was found, we know the bodies were moved around post mortem, we know Dana's body was staged in the middle of it all. We know his wounds were different to everyone else's. But really, gotta ask myself time and again -- WHY. Like, in the most logical possible scenario. What could it possibly matter, where the bodies fell... unless it mattered a lot, enough to risk sticking around longer than necessary in order to play fucking barbies with a pile of dead people. We know that while they did their best to stage the bodies, they also left ALL the weapons lying neatly on a table, or dropped carelessly on the floor. Except one.... which was? The hammer, that probably killed Dana - the only one with massive head trauma.

I think I made a few posts along these lines before, god knows if they're still here. I don't want to be repetitive, but there's some aspects of the case that seem to me to not make much sense unless this sort of thinking is applied to them.

Just chucking it out there, in case anyone else can't feel satisfied with the notion that Sue and all those kids died because Bo and/or Marty had a hard on.
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Re: Drugs

Postby dmac » Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:02 am

Mena's been in my head since Unsolved Mysteries aired a piece on the boys' murders back in the Eighties- before I moved to LA and worked with the production company, Cosgrove/Meurer, on their shows... such as UM. And Mena's been in my head since early on, when it was alleged Dana worked at Gansner Field, kicked out strip lights there, even was killed for seeing something there. I've never heard or seen reputable information Dana had any of those experiences, only that he'd been in trouble for a few things, and was working at the county fairgrounds as part of his parole/victim compensation arrangements.

I've also never seen anything tying the murders themselves to drugs. Despite the fact Marty, Bo, Dee, Tony, Loon were all dealers and users, and that Johnny and Dana were also dabbling, etc., there are ZERO facts at our disposal tying the killers' and victims' drug experiences / histories together, even peripherally. In fact, that the Loonibi, the killers' apologists (Spenceypoo, Danielle, etc), and even Old Guard PCSO all goose-step to the same stupid tune about J&D drug ripoffs, mistaken identity, etc., tells us drugs actually had LITTLE-TO-NOTHING to do with any of the killers' motives.

I don't believe drugs were the motive for the murders, but is the main cause for the coverup. Mena gets a lot closer to Crimely and DT when you factor in circumstances surrounding the Queen's Accident in Yosemite in March, 1983. Since Mena was a main traffic point between CIA coke from S America (Panama) becoming DOJ coke in America, and Mariposa exposed a corridor of trafficking CIA-cum-DOJ contraband via rural sheriffs up the California corridor, it's far easier to see DOJ and PCSO being in the same business. We know CIA/DOJ were/are using planes, but for yonks people have said Keddie was all about drugs falling off the trains near the wye. Again, nothing but hearsay has been tied to those stories, but read up on the Octopus and you'll see drugs are supposedly coming off the rails back then that had to have travelled on the Western Pacific Hi-Line to reach places mentioned in the Octopus, such as Klamath, Sandpoint ID, and points beyond.

Distinguish the reason for the LE coverup from the motives behind the murders themselves, and the clearly sexual overtones of the attack on Sue and the sexually insulting staging of her body (later undone and covered by surviving victim[s]) stand on their own. After seeing the shoddy performance by the ME's office in Sac, and where tissues and fluids were sent, tells me we have no reason to believe many test results... including toxicology, rape kit, DNA.

The killers were playing with bodies long enough for livor mortis to form on Dana's posterior before the killers placed him face-down and crushed his skull. Sue died last and blood spatter on tape around her ankles came from Dana's head, showing he was posed prior to Johnny or Sue. The staging meant a helluva lot to one person. The complaints by Marty about sticking around so long and wasting time on all the postmortem damage and staging indicates it was Bo's idea. Believable since Bo's the more experienced killer, and had reason to stage it so it didn't look like one of his typical kills OR the work of people in 26, but these assholes were first and foremost sociopaths and morons. The sexually humiliating staging of Sue- who Marty admitted murdering- tends not to let his protestations about wasting time at the crime scene absolve him from having a clear and decisive hand in her posing. In the end, the staging tried to equalize the damage done to Sue prior to her death with the postmortem damage done to Johnny and Dana... all in order to hide the fact Sue, not Tina, not anyone else, was the true target. But the killers, literally as stupid as a sack of hammers, again pointed to Sue directly as the target by sexualizing her staging.

As for weapons left at the scene, only the hammer was certainly a murder weapon. The flimsy steak knife was definitely solely used for postmortem stabs, as in to Johnny's chest (the knife was abandoned when it bent against his ribs), and the huge butcher knife has a blade clearly inconsistent with any of the life-threatening injuries. Taken from the scene are the restraints (tape rolls), Daisy Powerline 880 rifle, Marty's blue-handled hammer recovered this spring from the pond, the Swiss army knife Justin described (found with the bloody cardboard and tissue in the dumpster by the dorm)... and perhaps the knife found with hairlike fibers still attached, recovered this April near where the dumpster was, is also a murder weapon. Part of the staging by the killers was meant to show a crime of opportunity, where all the restraints and weapons came from the vix home. Well, these dumb hammers ruined that plan by bringing at least three rolls of med tape, of varying widths, to 28.

Sue's head wounds were traumatic, with her cheekbone and jaw crushed by hammer blows. Johnny's was perhaps the worst prior to death, with two hammer wounds causing fissures and his brain protruding through. Dana's massive, crushing head wounds were postmortem, after he was rolled over and his head placed on the cushion. The only blood to come from those postmortem head wounds had already separated to coagulate and serum. Of the three victims in 28, he suffered the least while alive. It's possible the head wounds may initially have been from the rifle barrel, and the killers decided to use W4 (still perhaps the table leg) further damage his head in order to mask that fact. It was very important to the killers all weapons they brought be removed, but they left behind the rifle's sight ramps, the pellet, TWO packs of Marlboros, a blood spattered denim shirt under the knife and hammer, etc. They were working in a very dark house, with only the bathroom light on.

There are a few threads about motives, but I believe Loon did as much, if not more, to instigate the killings than anyone. How else would Marty get it in his head to blame Sue for trying to destroy his marriage? Sure, Marty had to blame someone- preferably women or kids- for his shortcoming. Sure Bo told Crimely he had a limp stiffy for Sue, but he'd been in town for ten days and it was Marty who was said to have a longstanding fixation on Sue. Plus April 11 was Marty's fake birthday. The killers didn't give a damn that the kids were there, including their own Justin. And it's a 100% bona fide lie from Loon that anyone from 26 knocked on her door, much less invited her to the bar. Look at how Loon has handled herself, how she's tweaked the Loonibi, read her recent interactions, and self-destructive lying in chat, on this very forum. Look at her BS story about knocking on Sue's door. Look at how she's claimed she was great friends, only tea acquaintances, or barely knew Sue.
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Re: Drugs

Postby Ausgirl » Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:13 pm

D, thanks for the refresher info, it's been a long time since I've been here, and there's years of researching other cases in between, so I'll be a little foggy until I'm up to speed.

Okay, I see what you're saying. I will contend, however, that it's pretty difficult for even a sloppy ME to miss evidence of rape, especially violent rape - which I believe it would have been, all things considered. No motile sperm... those are hard to overlook but okay, they might have been. Vaginal trauma.. much harder to miss. So I'm gonna err on the side of evidence there and stick to "no rape". That doesn't mean I don't believe the possibility that there was a sexual element to the crime, I just see no evidence of rape.

Back to the drug thing for a moment: zooming out from the crime scene itself. I see a bunch of people directly connected to each other, LE and locals and criminals-come-lately alike, all circling their wagons -- and the why of that, I do believe, very probably has as much to do with hiding a pre-existing common interest as anything else.

There's a post here somewhere in which I talk about Marty in jail shortly after the murders, and "Where's the drugs, Meeks?" -- not 'where's my wife, whom I'm insanely possessive about and has now taken up with you'... it's 'the drugs' he's screaming about, that's his priority when faced with the young man who just severely cucked him. And isn't Loon always saying how jealous and possessive he was? Well, she wasn't on his mind at all that day, was she. Drugs were missing, and Marty sounds pretty damned convinced that Wade Meeks knew where those were at.

Then I'm thinking about Marty's love letter, and the "Four lives" he 'paid' that made him feel Loon owed him big time. Well, as sick as that woman is, I cannot see her pointing a finger and commanding a quad murder as proof of Marty's undying affections, so what is he really talking about there? He's clearly laying a guilt trip of some kind, and the nuance - masked as it is in affection - seems threatening. But how, exactly, does Loon figure into things, that could cause Marty to later claim she owes him big time (or is at his mercy, w/e), because he'd "paid" for her love, with .. murder. How is that even a currency, there? I have always thought it may well have to with the situation above, Wade and the missing drugs.

I am not for a moment rehashing the old "J&D dd a drug ripoff" scenario. I'm saying, there was a bigger picture behind the whole mess, one which *could have* figured strongly into the motive for the murders, and the staging and post-mortem treatment of those bodies. Like, so much was done, it seems, just for appearances' sake. And could equally figure into how Marty then clearly saw those murders as some kind "payment" he'd later dangle over Loon's head, after he'd found out about her and Wade (though again, she didn't warrant a mention in the jail, it was not HER Marty was primarily concerned about).

See where I'm going?
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Re: Drugs

Postby dmac » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:16 pm

The ME missed so damned many things. Gam contends it was a rush job by an overworked guy doing extra labor for a county too poor to have an ME. All three autopsies were rushed, done within minutes, botched. All completed in a couple hours, including a break for lunch. I contend the reasons don't matter off the bat. This guy missed many things, such as stating what was clearly postmortem damage. Even the stab wound to Sue's throat, which penetrated her spine, may easily have been postmortem, as the blood found in her lungs which Rooney attributed to the throat wound would have come from the massive jaw damage that left teeth dangling. If the ME thinks Sue didn't aspirate blood from the mouth trauma, he's not only lazy but a jackass. The ME missed so many things in his 'reports', such as what appears to be a pellet wound on Dana's thigh, the other W4 wound nearby on his thigh, coagulated blood spatter and petichiae and livor mortis clearly visible on Sue's legs and feet, etc. etc. etc.

If LE wanted crappy, unprofessional, subpar autopsies conducted on these victims, Pierce Rooney was their wet dream come true. They already had two corrupt scumfucks, Bradley and Prince Albert Crim, in the box, and Rod DeCrona's dad waving a 'scratch my back' job in front of DT's wagging tongue. They had a thoroughly corrupt asshat, Sam Lister, in charge of handing back whatever polygraph results LE wanted. Lister, like Crimely, DT, Stoy, DeCrona, Shanks, et al, was himself a career criminal wearing a badge. Everywhere I look, the DOJ guys sent to work the Plumas case had bad backgrounds of their own. What are the chances the bloodwork and evidence (much of it long-disappeared) the DOJ handled were better served than the victims themselves?

I've stated many times that much of the patent bullshit we read in statements come from faked and fixed reports, as well as 'witnesses' lying to protect themselves or towing the party line to hide the shenanigans they were involved in with the knowledge and protection of PCSO. As for Marty's Last Stand, while in lockup with Wade, that was the last straw for DT and PCSO. That's when the proverbial "Rambo: First Blood" ride to the county line took place.

Marty admits in the Crimely interview that he went over to 28 and spoke with DT, filling him in. I think that's about exactly what happened, so Doug prolly knew Tina was missing from 28 long before PCSO officially did. In the aerial photos showing Wade's 72 LeMans and Dee's Ford wagon leaving 26 (and Keddie) the back way, in quick succession, at noon Sunday, DT's squad car is parked against traffic in front of 28. What are the chances LE forgot to screen traffic in and out of Keddie once three were found dead? Even if they were too stupid to officially realize Tina was missing for hours, and even if one bright boy was wise enough to jot down all license plates in the vicinity, that they accidentally didn't screen traffic on the only road to and from the crime scene is not only unlikely, it's impossible. I'm not alone when I say that was a fix.

Marty and DT were briefing each other throughout this for WEEKS. Plus, Marty was also going to Reno weekly, warming up to, and wearing down for, the unscheduled visit where he gave the unprovoked confession which Crimely filed a false report about. DT was also in frequent contact with Justin who, along with at least Greg, admitted they were awakened by the murders. DT and Crimely had a lot of things to juggle to keep the truth hidden, and that included silencing witnesses. The worst of the lot was Marty, who'd made several statements prior to the murders- including that very Saturday when he said heads would roll if shit didn't get straightened out. By the time of the lock-up meltdown, Marty was again telling people he still had unfinished business- and I don't mean Mama Meeks' account from the 12th. He was telling people he hadn't gone far enough.

Marty knew Wade was bedding Loon. Why did he go after Sue instead of, say, Dareyl? Or Wade? WTF was he doing confessing to Sue's murder in a very public manner, screaming at the bastard fucking his wife in a holding cell at the sheriff's office? Why would he do that rather than scream, "you'd better quit fucking my wife, or you'll be next"?! Is the report of what he said accurate? Is that all Marty screamed? Was it, like many other reports, tweaked and falsified? If Wade was debriefed over the incident, where the hell is the similar report where Marty was similarly questioned? Oh, wait, that didn't happen on paper.

Instead, it went something like this: However DT was notified of the scream session, it was the final straw. After all the shit Marty was putting corrupt LE through--- he was basically boasting that he'd done it and was untouchable--- clearly screaming as much while in LE custody was a step too far, even for a criminal pig such as Slyvester Doogie Thomas. Rather than Marty being debriefed and charged with murder, he disappeared from Plumas. He went to join Bo in Klamath, and continued business as usual.

He kept contacting friends and others in fear in Plumas. Friends and other dealers were now fearful. Marty was boasting he would return and pick up where he left off. He claimed he'd go after Sue's lovers- even when the perfect opportunity had already presented itself in the PCSO lockup. He kept going to Reno. He kept writing love / hate /threat notes to Loon.Then, something triggered an uptick. He went to Reno, unscheduled, and confessed to his therapist. Marty was then seen getting into a red van and disappeared from the Arcade Hotel. Bo slipped away, unseen, but they soon resurfaced together in Milton-Freewater, pulling circus ticket scams for Chenault Enterprises. Then they a circus, arriving in TX, where they showed up on Bo's niece's (and Princess') doorstep and hung around until getting the boot for pulling more scams.

Why was Marty screaming about murdering Sue and missing drugs instead of about Wade screwing Loon? Well, the answer is scrambled up in the above bile, his being a sociopath, whatever drugs he was on, and his feeling untouchable due to the LE protection he was afforded.

I believe the "four lives" is a guilt trip meant to remind Loon he was a witness to her involvement, that she was not just another killer in 28 that night, that Sue was the target. It also firmly establishes Loon as the impetus for the murders, that she was complaining/boasting/torturing Marty by saying Sue had helped convince her to get the hell away from him. This is solidly backed up in the account the therapist gave on-camera of Marty's visits, where Marty first blamed the murders on his 'bad friends' and eventually said Sue was the target for being an 'extreme bitch' who badmouthed him and helped destroy his marriage. The others were collateral damage. Oh, and it just so happened it was the last night together Marty and Loon ever had.

While asking why Marty would hold 'pay with four lives' over Loon's head, ask why he hoped Loon would be positively affected by the sentiment. They're sick people, sociopaths who got a big kick out of 28. Look at Loon's behavior over the past 35 years. She clearly loves revisiting the murders, reliving them, toying with victims and anyone else interested in the truth. Making picture frames from remnants of 28?! Perfect example. She's the reason Marty knew she'd get a kick out of the 'four lives' remark, and is a huge part of the reason they entered 28 on Marty's fake birthday with what amounted to a kill kit.

As for 'appearances' of the crime scene, all the staging was done by a pack of sociopathic morons to do what staging is intended to do: confuse the scene, confuse the investigation. Sue was the target and received the brunt of the damage while alive. The boys were defiled after death to make them appear to be as abused while alive as Sue. Tina was taken from the crime scene early on, stashed, then dumped at Camp 18 a good dozen hours later. They wanted it to look like a crime of opportunity by a vicious fuck who was into little girls, not the sexually-charged revenge murder they'd just committed, where Sue was the sole target. Stupid as they were, they did a piss poor job of staging, the coup de grace being the sexually humiliating posing of Sue. Yes, even in the staging meant to hide Sue as target, they couldn't help but point to Sue as the target.

I believe Marty was being mostly truthful when he complained of the staging and wishing they'd gotten the hell out of 28 quicker. Hell, by the time they were done, Mr Seabolt was up and moving around and Mr. Krois had probably already returned from Quincy, where he'd picked up a Sunday paper.
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Re: Drugs

Postby Ausgirl » Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:09 pm

All of that is absolutely plausible, Dmac. But I'm not quite ready to let go of the thought that the motive could be slightly different.

I posted years ago on some thread or other that likely is not here anymore, another scenario that made a lot of sense to me out of various puzzling little details and also some of the pre- and post- behaviour from the guilty. And yea, it involved some missing drugs. And this is (a much less detailed) version of why I thought this was possible:

- Mama Meeks made it pretty plain that Dee, Marty and Wade were once upon time thick as thieves and doing drug runs together.
- Loon was always dropping tidbits about how Marty hated Johnny, and made a big deal about the whole Bo asking Sue out thing, and also bleated about the jealousy angle at every opportunity. It's well established she's a big ole liar, and very manipulative. So why would a liar draw attention to these things, over and over...
- ... while also obsessing over Wade at every opportunity (again, there was a thread where I parsed all that).. comments, as I see it, designed to push his buttons and dangle something over his head. Why? Maybe to make sure he stays quiet?

- While Marilyn swears black and blue her fling with Wade didn't start til after the murders, Glenna Meeks is sure she "already had her hooks in him" long before Loon moved into their house. Given Loon's well documented man-hopping behaviour among other things, I tend to agree.

- "Where's the drugs, Meeks?" -- with the strong inference that Wade would the get the same treatment as the murder victims.

- Mama Meeks states that a large proportion of the early conversations b/w herself, Wade and Marilyn (while they were all attending FRC together) involved Loon whining about Marty and how she wanted to get away from him so her tales of victimhood were a big deal, early on. Later, Wade would join the military as a means of supporting her, though by then she very likely had already started moving on to her next meal ticket. Ie, Wade was besotted, and prepared to go to some lengths to provide for/protect Marilyn.

Anyway, I saw it as very feasible, given all of these things and more, that a lot of Loon's deflection over the years has been to detract from her being the instigator (on that we 100% concur) -- but I have this abiding (and not baseless) suspicion that it was all about blaming Johnny for something she and Wade had done.... something that wouldn't occur to Marty until some time after the murders, when it became clear that he'd been taken for a ride.

Which kinda fits with his desire to confess.. it's one thing to torture & kill and stage a murder for a reason (in his scrambled head) that is valid, but another entirely to have find out he'd done these things to completely innocent people.

So that would put another slant on the 'love letter' and Marty saying that he'd "paid" the price of her love with the lives of four people. And the overtones of emotional blackmail would then carry even more weight, if he was actually reminding her whose fault the whole thing really was.

It makes a kind of sense,too, of a great deal of blathering and finger pointing Loon has done over the years, all intended to deflect from her own involvement, while reminding Wade to keep his mouth shut about it, or he'd shoulder some of the blame as well. Why else obsess on him on a forum, decades after the fact? Saying stuff like, "Wade could give you answers... Why doesn't Wade get on here and clear things up? Go ask Wade about this irrelevant thing or that...Wade, Wade, Wade". Okay, she is nuts, but there could, in light of all this other stuff, be another reason for that.

I want to try to apply this to the crime scene, see if it fits. Meantime, I'll try to dig up the file I kept on all this, which I'm sure had a couple of other good reasons to suspect this was the real motive, etc.
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Re: Drugs

Postby Ausgirl » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:47 pm

Adding to my post above:

A few elements of the crime scene evidence suggest there was some kind of interrogation going on, particularly the stab marks in the wall/ear slice wounds and the series of shallow, regular slices across the back of Sue's right hand and fingers - which don't to me resemble defensive wounds at all, but deliberate, repeated slices cut one after the other at almost perfectly regular intervals.
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Re: Drugs

Postby joe_mcplumber » Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:15 pm

That's some curious nomenclature anyway... "the drugs". Who calls, (whatever it is), "drugs"?

We had weed, we had the occasional shipment of acid or mushrooms, and some of the richer folks had cocaine they got from out of town. If i was lucky enough to have all that stuff in a pile and someone swiped it, i'd be yelling "where's my STUFF"? Or maybe, "where's my DOPE?".

A red herring for Marty's audience, i think.

He probably wanted to get Wade in trouble because the meekses were preventing access to his wife. I'm 99.9% sure didn't know he'd been cucked. And if Wade knew something about missing "drugs", i'd know too.
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Re: Drugs

Postby dmac » Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:42 pm

that's a home run, Joe. I never even looked at the way he'd said it, but back in my 20s when I smoked herbal essence, I had many names for it, none of them 'the drugs'.

I do believe he knew Loon had swapped him out for fresh horses, though, because he was making calls, even later from Klamath, stating he was coming back to slaughter his wife's lovers. Poor suffering Marderer had a lot of people scared, even big-time dealer who ran the MV scene, Joe Amormino.
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Re: Drugs

Postby Ausgirl » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:51 pm

joe_mcplumber wrote:That's some curious nomenclature anyway... "the drugs". Who calls, (whatever it is), "drugs"?

We had weed, we had the occasional shipment of acid or mushrooms, and some of the richer folks had cocaine they got from out of town. If i was lucky enough to have all that stuff in a pile and someone swiped it, i'd be yelling "where's my STUFF"? Or maybe, "where's my DOPE?".

A red herring for Marty's audience, i think.

He probably wanted to get Wade in trouble because the meekses were preventing access to his wife. I'm 99.9% sure didn't know he'd been cucked. And if Wade knew something about missing "drugs", i'd know too.


He did actually say "the dope" - I could joke that I said "drugs" to make it clear he wasn't talking about Marilyn, heh.. but really, that was me, paraphrasing. Mainly as 'dope' can mean a lot of things, other than 'pot'.

Glenna Meeks stated in her posts that she was certain Marty knew about Loon & Wade, maybe she was wrong, but she's proven right about a lot of stuff too. She also flat out states that Marty, Dee and Wade were running drugs.

Good point, really good point, about Marty trying to get Wade in trouble. I find it odd though, that he doesn't mention his wife, if she was the reason for his rage. Maybe he did, and this was simply (irresponsibly) noted down as the collective 'other' things Marty said.

The raging could also have been simply about the fact that Loon was holed up at the Meeks house. And therefore, out of Marty's control - which would have to have been terrifying to him after what all happened at 28.

I'll give you benefit of doubt when you say that if Wade had stolen 'dope' you'd know about it. Marilyn herself could have swiped a stash, if it ever happened, with nobody's knowledge but her own, and I would not put such a thing past her. Really, it's not important to the question of 1/ why Marty was raging at Wade that day, and 2/ whether Sue was the real target, or John (and ergo, damage to the other victims was all about leveraging John for information he didn't have).

Really, I may be looking for zebras... I admit that's very possible and truth is more important than being right. However, several things in the present 'acceptable' version of events are not sitting easy with me (and never have), and that's what I'm trying to hash out.

This crime has sloppy, stupid elements to it. And it has systematic, calculated elements to it. Raging, emotion- and drug/booze-fuelled attacks don't tend to be calculated or even accidentally resemble it. Sometimes calculated crimes get out of control and things get sloppy. The latter is more common than the former. That's probably the crux of where I'm headed with this.
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Re: Drugs

Postby dmac » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:59 pm

Ah, thx for clearing that up abt him saying "dope". I should have looked at the document, but it sounded right to me.

Something in a similar vein has me raging today. I'm going through the TV episode to clear up faults and praise the great things they did bring up, and when it came to "greg and Rick said they never woke up", I know somewhere Greg, 5, said he had woken up during the night. I swear it was in the Shaver report, but now I can't find it in that or anywhere else. Does ANYONE recall which report it's in?!
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Re: Drugs

Postby joe_mcplumber » Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:34 pm

Oops.

Well anyway I think Nina might've gotten a slightly exaggerated impression of the "drug running", if in fact she so characterized it. Maybe Wade fetched something for Marty, a few times, i dunno. But here again if it was a regular thing i'd have either known about it, or i'd have been on the runs myself. I mean, unless every time Wade was out of my sight he ran off to Chico to fetch drugs without me, in which case he was a terrible friend and i'm very upset about it.

Anyhow i was just giving my impression of the timeline, from a position of proximity but filtered through a fuzzy memory. Wade and Marilyn kept their thing very hush-hush. Marty clearly did not know about it on the 12th of April, and he was kept away from Marilyn thereafter. It is indeed hard to imagine him being more upset about dope than about someone shtupping his wife, so i don't think he knew weeks later either. I'm sure he had his suspicions but i think his rage would've been more directed and his threats more specific, if he had confirmation. Marilyn was the core of his meltdown, she was his principal fixation. Which is why i still feel "the" dope was a red herring. (Definite article instead of pronoun... casts suspicion on Wade while avoiding to assign ownership of illegal substance. I know i'm treading water, but since i was parsing so... parsely... anyhow...)

I'm not at all discouraging this line of inquiry. I probably don't want to think it was about dope because if it was then it was probably about a relatively small amount and thus utterly, tragically disproportionate, but it was,, yeah.., i reckon it was that in any case.
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Re: Drugs

Postby Ausgirl » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:55 pm

Just so y'all know I am not pulling this stuff out my butt. what Glenna Meeks said re drug running were several iterations of this:

wade told me that marty and dee and bo would use heard drugs sometimes.....he said that at times they [he and dee]would go to ovrville, they would make meny stops along the way....these were for marty and they invloved drugs.......

"many stops along the way" sounds like a drug run to me. If this is true, then were they dealing in "small amounts"? Lotta small amounts?

Her comments re Wade have been handily collated on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1313

She also says that Wade spent a large amount of time out and about with Dee, mainly prior to his divorce from Mona. If you've any insight as why that was, I'd really like to know. If Wade was that tight with Dee and you were tight with Wade, do you also have any insight on her assertions that Dee was a "scam artist" (another thing she says emphatically and repeatedly)?

Look, I don't want it to be about drugs either. I just don't want to get too comfortable with the prevailing theories til I'm done poking sticks at the parts I'm not wholly bought into yet.

Over the years a lot of people have said things like, "well if they were selling drugs, why were they all so poor?" .. small time dealers I've known aren't wealthy because they're either paid in drugs or spend the money they make on drugs, moreso as their habit develops. So they might have been moving larger amounts, to pay for the smaller amounts they either used or sold on the side. Just sayin.
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Re: Drugs

Postby joe_mcplumber » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:06 am

Well darn i missed all of that fun.

I honestly have no explanation for that story, nor for any similar iteration of it. I've no idea why Nina thought it an appropriate anecdote for a public forum, nor what prompted her to tell it. I don't even know why Wade thought it an appropriate thing to tell his ma.

I've nothing concrete to say it didn't happen just like Wade said. All i can say is if it happened after Wade and i became friends, (which wasn't very long after they moved to town), then it couldn't have happened anything like "often" because Wade and i were in company more often than we weren't. Or anyway, it seemed so. Time in memory expands and contracts, ya know? it's like a jumble of vignettes, some lasting longer than others but not necessarily the longer ones... um... ya know? In any case i was chronically homeless and/or in crisis, and his ma was chronically maternal so i spent a really lot of time at their house. Lived in their pantry, in EQ.

It just doesn't sit well with me. And it doesn't sit well with me, only because i was there at the time. But i understand that holds no special merit here, and doesn't prove or disprove anything. Anyway, there's probably all sorts of stuff i don't know just because i didn't know Marty, so it's plausible that all sorts of stuff happened without my participation or knowledge and it's further possible that things i find unlikely, were perfectly workable in Marty's world.

I dunno. Just doesn't sit well.

For the record, Wade went totally straight when he enlisted. Didn't even smoke pot anymore. And he enlisted on the sole premise that he'd be supporting Marilyn and her kids, which i think is fine testament to his character. Not that it's relevant to your inquiry, i just wanted to point it out.

Ausgirl wrote:She also says that Wade spent a large amount of time out and about with Dee, mainly prior to his divorce from Mona. If you've any insight as why that was, I'd really like to know.


Because we were all friends, we went places and did things. But here again, i don't know how you quantify "large time". I mean there were periods i was probably in Dee's company more often and for longer than Wade was, just because of circumstances. Someone looking on and keeping score might could say we spent "large time" together. I wouldn't say that, but i'd probably fumble in court if i had to disprove it.

If Wade was that tight with Dee and you were tight with Wade, do you also have any insight on her assertions that Dee was a "scam artist" (another thing she says emphatically and repeatedly)?


Because Dee would try to sell snow to an Eskimo and birth control to a Catholic nun. He was always coming up with ideas for making money and we'd pretty much just laugh them off. Later on i kinda felt bad about that, because it was like Dee was trying to give us notions above our station and he was probably frustrated with our lack of ambition. I think "scam artist" is a bit harsh though. Nothing he ever proposed in my presence was legally or even morally questionable.

But it does appear that he talked someone into opening a second hand store. So there's one damnable scam.

..small time dealers I've known aren't wealthy because they're either paid in drugs or spend the money they make on drugs, moreso as their habit develops. So they might have been moving larger amounts, to pay for the smaller amounts they either used or sold on the side. Just sayin.


Yeah, but none of us had much in the way of drugs, either.

---

PS it seems to be an accepted premise around here that Nina will fit her story to divert scrutiny from her kids. If this murder had anything to do with drugs and Nina had any inkling that it did, then by that premise she never would have linked Wade to drug traffic of any sort.

I have no idea where i was going with that.
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Re: Drugs

Postby Ausgirl » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:33 pm

I honestly have no explanation for that story, nor for any similar iteration of it. I've no idea why Nina thought it an appropriate anecdote for a public forum, nor what prompted her to tell it. I don't even know why Wade thought it an appropriate thing to tell his ma.


As it's one she not only tells but repeats, I can only assume she thought it was pertinent to the case regarding the behaviour of the major suspects. From the perspective, obviously, that Wade wasn't one of them. And I agree with her.

It just doesn't sit well with me. And it doesn't sit well with me, only because i was there at the time. But i understand that holds no special merit here, and doesn't prove or disprove anything. Anyway, there's probably all sorts of stuff i don't know just because i didn't know Marty, so it's plausible that all sorts of stuff happened without my participation or knowledge and it's further possible that things i find unlikely, were perfectly workable in Marty's world.


Yeah I get the time thing (and the crisis thing, I think our childhoods might have a lot in common that way). But it can be a matter a perspective too.. It took me many years to figure out that my best friend's wonderful, kindly family were old school old country cosa nostra, illegal grappa manufacturers and god knows what else, and that was why so many of her uncles and cousins had gun-cleaning accidents and fell off ladders all the time. I thought they were just extremely unlucky that way. Just sayin, perception can be .. less than all encompassing, about the people we love and rely on.

IIrc, both Marilyn and Glenna say Dee hooked up with Marty not long after they moved to the area and became good friends, and Wade by accounts tagged about with Dee.. You tagged about with Wade and Dee, but didn't know Marty? What about Marilyn, and Doug Thomas? Please don't take this as interrogation, I'm just trying to get a grip on these interactions.

For the record, Wade went totally straight when he enlisted. Didn't even smoke pot anymore. And he enlisted on the sole premise that he'd be supporting Marilyn and her kids, which i think is fine testament to his character. Not that it's relevant to your inquiry, i just wanted to point it out.


Well. Yes, relevant, I think, because it speaks to character...and I have to say, there's few cases out of the many, many I've researched and contemplated over the years where the actions and character of so many 'peripheral' people are important to understanding what happened. It's rare and unfortunate for those people, nothing happens in a vacuum. Anyway, yes, that was a really good and admirable move, and shows Wade was at that tender age more of a man than most of the men we discuss here.

Because Dee would try to sell snow to an Eskimo and birth control to a Catholic nun. He was always coming up with ideas for making money and we'd pretty much just laugh them off. Later on i kinda felt bad about that, because it was like Dee was trying to give us notions above our station and he was probably frustrated with our lack of ambition. I think "scam artist" is a bit harsh though. Nothing he ever proposed in my presence was legally or even morally questionable.


Not saying I disbelieve you, your perception anyway. But it's hard to tally this with why he'd then pick a couple of very hardcore scammers to knock around with, y'know? If he was all up and up like that.

Yeah, but none of us had much in the way of drugs, either.


Again, hard to tally with Glenna saying Dee smoked joints like cigarettes, etc. Marty dealing pills. Bo's history of moving dope in bulk. The runs to Oroville with frequent stops. I mean who really gives a crap how much pot a person smoked in their youth, but these grown men did at times apparently have what I'd consider a 'lot' of drugs, and bought and sold them. And it's very relevant, because members of PCSD and their federal pals told a lot of lies about this case and worse, and it's pretty clear why.

PS it seems to be an accepted premise around here that Nina will fit her story to divert scrutiny from her kids. If this murder had anything to do with drugs and Nina had any inkling that it did, then by that premise she never would have linked Wade to drug traffic of any sort.


I used to be dubious of her that way because, in this case, history has proven it wise to be dubious of just about everyone, and take nothing at face value. Over time, though, and giving leeway for memory and age and fact distortions that come with hearsay, etc, Glenna Meeks said a lot of stuff that presently just makes a lot of sense. Sure, she'd protect her kids, what kind of person wouldn't. Even then, she's pretty honest about them, albeit in that veiled way mothers talk, but as honest I'd probably be to a bunch of strangers, and more than I'd be to strangers on the net who are openly hostile (the old board was a real zoo that way, from all accounts).

Not saying I think she hasn't got more to tell than she actually has said, bit I think in what she did say she did her best to be forthright.
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Re: Drugs

Postby dmac » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:43 pm

The biggest red flag indicating there may be drug involvement comes from a complete lack of photos from the basement of 28. I'm not saying anything Johnny and Dana may have been holding is related to the crimes or their impetus

I've seen all the photos, and there are about a dozen photos of the downed clothesline mere feet from Johnny's room. No photos of the utility room or its water heater, onto which Phil claimed he'd etched a partial plate number. No photos of Johnny's room to prove what state it was in. Was there any indication Dana and Johnny had already returned from Q? Dana's clothes or his hypo kit? They found the thumbprint on the back stairwell post a good ten days after the murders and managed a photo of it. Don Stoy was the main photographer for CS photos, and he's the one that checked the water heater. No photos. What about the white dress DT found "under the cabin? No photos.

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Re: Drugs

Postby joe_mcplumber » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:54 pm

No offense is taken. My primary motives here all along have been to provide context, i.e. the big picture as best i can from the perspective of one individual, and to defend my friends and family when i feel they are being unfairly or inaccurately judged.

I never tried to make anyone out an angel, none of us were. I might go a bit extreme in my defense but that's usually a knee jerk, proportionate to how outrageous i feel the attack is.

IIrc, both Marilyn and Glenna say Dee hooked up with Marty not long after they moved to the area and became good friends, and Wade by accounts tagged about with Dee.. You tagged about with Wade and Dee, but didn't know Marty? What about Marilyn, and Doug Thomas? Please don't take this as interrogation, I'm just trying to get a grip on these interactions.


I meant that i didn't know Marty in any personal sense, because i didn't want to. I was content to annoy him, and have nothing further to do with him. Wade didn't like him either, but he found himself at Marty's because he was "tagging along" with Dee. That, probably entirely by chance, just never happened to me. Which is fine. And probably even good.

I didn't know Marilyn (at all, i don't think, not even of her existence), until she moved in with the meekses. And i only knew Doug Thomas as someone to avoid because, you know, cop.

The relationships you're describing weren't… linear… like… "Wade tagged along with Dee" and "Dee Tagged along with Marty" and "Joe tagged along with Wade", and all predictable and consistent like that. It was more like,, bits orbiting in discrete circles but also the circles intersecting and weaving, and the bits bouncing here and there and sometimes crashing into each other with heads and fists.

It's difficult to articulate but you probably know what i mean since i think i'm describing,, like, humans.

I was tempted to write a bunch of explanation for why i believed Dee and Wade "drug running" for Marty was unlikely. But that would only be further defense of my initial reaction, and like i said i can't say it didn't happen. So all i'd be doing is questioning the scale and frequency, and that probably doesn't matter because clearly, something of the sort happened, on some unspecified scale. (I have a problem with "at times" and "many")

I've always believed Marty's tantrum at the jail was calculated nonsense, because Wade had no idea what he was hollering about and because at the time Marty was pretty much hamming it up in general.

The implications, if the rant actually meant something, are staggering. And if i allow as it did mean something, it's horrifying how much sense it makes. Much more sense than that "they passed the polygraph and we didn't have evidence to convict" bullshit.
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Re: Drugs

Postby joe_mcplumber » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:08 pm

To parse that out, as much for my own benefit as anything else...we're in a cop shop, which would usually be the last place anyone would discuss drugs at any volume, and then...

"Where's the dope, Meeks?"

Implication: his audience knows what "the" means.

"Put him in here, I'll find out!"

Implication: his audience is as interested in the location of "the" as Marty is.

Is there any timeline which might put a drunk, pissed-off-at-rock-and-roll asshole on the path between the lodge and 26, at the same time as some kid who (he suspects) ripped him off?

Apologies if this has been hashed out before. I've just suffered a serious readjustment in my synaptic alignment.
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