regarding DNA at the scene

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

regarding DNA at the scene

Postby jhancock » Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:02 am

From DOJ report in 2006:

"...out of all of the items submitted the only DNA samples obtained match that of the three victims. In other words no DNA was identified other than from the three victims. [The technician] said that there was far more evidence initially collected at the crime scene that could still be sourced for suspect DNA. [Technician] said she had several more items within their possession that she would attempt to identify DNA."

From DOJ Physical Evidence Examination Report in 2004:

"DNA was extracted from the following: swab from the steak knife blade and steak knife handle; two stains from the front left side of the striped jacket; three stains from the front right sleeve of the striped jacket; two stains from the back lower portion of jacket; swab of the handle of hammer; swab of blade of butcher knife; swab of the handle of butcher knife; stains from notepaper; piece of north wall with stain from living room; swab of inside of kitchen door knob; swab of edge of door to west bedroom; swab of piece of wall from west bedroom; brown stain from side of fitted sheet..." [and several other entries here]
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby Magnum PI » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:16 am

What i want to know is, why don't they have DNA taken from Sues fingernails? This women fought like hell, she had several defensive wounds. The perp(s) DNA was one her somewhere, so where is it now!!!!!
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby meankitty » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:26 am

They probably did do scrapings of her nails, and I hope they test those, as well as the blood on the back stairs, and Sue's car door handle. If LE thought one of the perps had a cut, then they should test. Who knows, maybe it's in the DNA database.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby William Lee » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:26 pm

True, MK, I'd suppose they did do scrapings.

Whether they found and stored anything of such is one thing, though; but the other--the biggest--is had they found such evidentiary samples,then its up to whether the PCSO safely stored, and/or has not lost, and/or not accidentally-purposefully damaged nor and/or destroyed the findings (these potential samples among many other bits of evidence...), and/or not "already found the samples to be of no value" and thus done away with them, and/or... et cetera.

Blah. But that's my pessimism typing. MAYBE they, LE, did find good, usable biological samples from one or more of the perps; maybe so, and maybe they have them in, yes, pristine condition so that when they do run DNA tests on them (if they already haven't) and make a profile, maybe they'll be that much closer to finding a match, the case is solved--all but the pondering of specifics & logistics ...; and then there will be nothing left, case-wise, aside some guilty familial excuses or (more) cries of fraud & scapegoat-ism from those that will forever deny the perps that did, well, did this. And it's my belief that if the perps that committed this crime ARE dead, well, they deserve to have their names even in death attached to this evil deed from their one failed life...

Or MAYBE one of the bastards is still alive and can pay for justice. What am I sayin'? Maybe ALL are still alive... It's possible, right? Right. Hmmph. :|

I just have a hard time being optimistic in the DNA realm being a contributing factor to the solving of this case. But it'd be great if I am totally wrong. On ANY points. I just wanna see this case solved.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby BUTTERFLYVALLEY1 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:31 pm

Didn't I read that when Furino took the bodies to Sacramento that he stayed for autopsys and then left some with DOJ and took the rest to Redding?
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby punchout316 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:15 am

What I find crazy about the DNA or lack thereof is that this was done at a time when DNA technology wasn't even a worry at the time.
So basically it leads you to just a handful of conclusions..
Either the killer(s) did leave DNA that didn't match and hasn't yet to match anyone in the database.
They left DNA that matches one of the suspects, but their DNA was never tested for whatever reason. (I think that's doubtful that they wouldn't have Marty's DNA or fingerprints to test)
The killers were super smart and foresaw DNA testing in the future.. (But the fact that they left the weapons there and risked a lot in the way they went about the killings and the kidnapping of Tina.)
Or all usable DNA was destroyed. Which I also think is highly unlikely. I read about them saying there was a leak that damaged evidence; but I can't see it ALL getting destroyed. There was just too much; fingerprints, clothing, the medical tape, parts of the wall, the weapons.. etc.

Personally, from all I've read on the case, I believe the boys got a ride hitchhiking and whoever that person(s) was, was the killer. The fact that there hasn't been a real concrete series of sightings of them walking back or any sightings of them passing further than the area around the gas station; leads me to believe they got a ride home around there; and the fact that this person(s) didn't come forward right away to say "yeah, that was me that gave them a ride home.. but after I dropped them off I did this or that..
It just makes me think that that is closer to what happened.

I realize there are a lot of questions that arise from this as well. So my mind isn't set in stone on any one theory.
But if you go down the route of it being Marty and Bo, it just seems impossible that there couldn't have been any concrete DNA or fingerprint showing up linking them to it; and I just don't buy into a massive conspiracy involving multiple agencies covering up all this for the sake of two lowlifes. From all I've read, Marty was arrested not long after the murders in the same county.. He didn't seem to have any "Get Out Of Jail" card then...
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby kmik » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:40 pm

You are right about the DNA. Technology to test DNA has come a long way since '81. Especially with the rolls of medical tape - there definitely should be some DNA stuck to the tape, but public would be the last to know about any DNA match.

Also your thoughts on the boys catching a ride home are what many of us have wondered about - WHO gave the boys a ride to Keddie (at least dropping them off at the entrance of the resort). The last known sighting we have of Johnny and Dana is around 11:30p.m. by Connie B. and Kevin B. (Kevin lived across the street from Cabin 28).

810411-2300c While enroute to Keddie with Connie Batten, Kevin Bodenham, sees Johnny and Dana hitchhiking toward Quincy. <Kevin Bodenham / Bradley>

There are plenty of other people (Henry T., Chuck W., Cary W, Art J., Karl S., and Frank D.,etc.) who should be looked at as well as Marty. The Marty theory is popular with many of us because that is really what Josh Hancock led everyone to believe in his documentaries. His documentaries were based on the LITTLE amount of information we have here and the information given to him by the Meeks family. I personally would like to think that there is a lot more information than what we have here. The one thing we do have is Timeline C (original Timeline A) of information that was gathered from over a period of years and then someone sat down and took what they thought was important and put them on a timeline - and I do believe there is a wealth of information in there.

I agree on the "massive cover-up" also. I know it makes for a great movie and does happen in real life - but as you have pointed out not for the 2 unimportant guys here. If there was any covering up it would have more than likely been someone covering for their child or family - not a cover-up with the entire Plumas County or PCSO involved.

The 2 major problems that appear to have existed in Plumas County at the time seem to be drugs and pedophiles. I recently watched a documentary in which the narrator said:
" Keddie holds so many skeletons in its closet. There were, in 1981, so many potential pervs in town - you could have stood on main street - thrown a dart with your eyes closed - and hit one."
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:55 pm

The DNA match was in recent years, and I have serious doubts about the statement "the DNA matches a living suspect." I believe that assessment, if it's even an accurate quote, predates Gamberg's involvement in the case, meaning that it almost had to come from Bill Elliott. Elliott's the genius that wanted a sample of Justin's DNA in hopes of finding a partial match indicating samples came from Marty. This means Bill thinks DNA is passed down from step-father to step-child. Gamberg has never said anything similar to that statement re: the DNA match.

I would think great DNA samples would come from the doors / doorknobs, the back post, blood on the sheets, the girls' wall, the weapons (particularly handles), the supposedly bloody glass/ashtray, any discarded items the killers may have wiped up with, the bloody knife and cardboard and tissue found in the dumpster, and THE CIGGY BUTTS the killers left behind. Notwithstanding LE looked sporadically for knife wound victims at some surrounding hospitals, with the weapons used and recovered (particularly the bloody Swiss army-type knife Justin mentioned one of the killers pulled from his pocket and used, that was recovered from the dumpster), there's plenty of reason to believe a killer cut his own hand on a knife. I believe the VAST majority of evidence (including dna-rich evidence) has been destroyed or damaged by LE.

As for the boys catching a ride... WHY DOES IT MATTER?! Until we KNOW how they got home, it's a circle-jerk pondering how they got home. It F-ING DOESN'T MATTER, and probably wouldn't have ANY BEARING if we knew. Get to the nuts of the matter: you want to believe the killers gave them a ride and that's how it all started. Why waste people's time beating around the bush if that's the unfounded conclusion to which you're leaping? Whichever "last known sighting" you choose to waste your time believing, why did it take them so long to get home? The murders began LOOOONG after 1130 pm, even if you're thick enough to believe Bo and Marty and Loon aren't involved. If your theory is they caught a ride home, stop wasting people's time. Just say it, but be willing to explain all the still-missing hours between when they got home and the murders began. If you want to play the Marilyn game of moving times around to suit your unsupportable theory, you'd better back it up with some basic damned facts. But you can't.

They either walked, which would account for them not being seen and would take up to a couple hours (if they walked DIRECTLY to 28), or they were given a ride- which takes six minutes and leaves a couple extra hours unaccounted for. If Bodenham/Batten saw them at 11:30, the bigger Q is WHERE WERE THEY BETWEEN THE LAST SIGHTING AT 9:XX PM and 11:30 pm? And WHY did PCSO disregard B/B sighting in the majority of their timelines?

The Marty 'theory' is not 'popular' because of Josh's crapumentaries. Most backlash we get is because people are rightfully pissed about his use of psychics, the overall low quality of the vids and his 'work', and people simply choosing, for no logical reason, that Marty's confession isn't credible- as if it's the only time Marty confessed! I came into this not believing MMB did it, but it was my own research and the work of OTHERS that makes it clear. If you choose to ignore the mountains of evidence MMB were involved, so be it, but don't waste my time with obnoxious, nonsensical rebuttals. You don't have to reinvent the wheel- the majority of our YEARS of hard research is EASILY FOUND on this site and forum. If you choose to believe whatever you believe, do NOT waste space on this forum simply saying "this doesn't add up, I don't believe it". Either do some ACTUAL WORK and formulate a thoughtful, fact-based rebuttal, or piss off.

kmik, I can lead a horse to fodder, but I can't make it think. Despite you being a 'mod', I'm very tired of your meankitty-like posts. I want you to be the first to take this poll, and understand the implications. If you take this as an insult, so be it. Imagine how I feel reading a multitude of your inane non-rebuttal rebuttals, consisting mainly of "Gosh, I have no facts to explain anything so I'll just say, 'NOPE I don't buy it' "

Punchout, you're a newbie and the above is not directed at you. Please do some reading, though, because your post shows a lack of basic case knowledge. The killers were INCREDIBLY STUPID, and did NOT foresee the future. They were assholes, not Asimovs.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:51 pm

kmik wrote:The 2 major problems that appear to have existed in Plumas County at the time seem to be drugs and pedophiles. I recently watched a documentary in which the narrator said:
" Keddie holds so many skeletons in its closet. There were, in 1981, so many potential pervs in town - you could have stood on main street - thrown a dart with your eyes closed - and hit one."

Ridiculous quote, and very telling you're blind enough to believe it, kmik. That outright lie from that feeble "documentary" is a sh*t sandwich of misquotes taken from this site and elsewhere. I, myself, have jokingly quipped you could throw a rock in any direction and hit a perv. Guess what? For me, it was a half-assed joke/comment when I made it, but now you're quoting it as hard fact?! Sad.

Try reading some more, here and elsewhere. I've quoted, several times, on this forum that Plumas has historically lower numbers of pedos (and crime, overall), per capita, than the state or country average. And don't rebut with bullsh*t like "well, there's no way all the pedos got reported in Plumas! Not with THAT scummy PCSO!" First, you're the one suddenly in love with PCSO, so stick to that 'pile of lame' while defending the fact that pedo crimes are probably well above reported numbers all across the WORLD, and you have no factual basis to claim Plumas therefore has much higher numbers than anyone else. Nope, the numbers are consistently and substantially LOWER THAN STATE AND NAT'L AVERAGES.

The FACTS are Plumas has lower numbers of pedos, period. Name every TRUE KNOWN PEDO from 1981 in the area:

1- We know Ass Sheriff Shanks was. He admitted it, and resigned because of it years later- with full benefits. Never prosecuted or convicted, he's not a statistic.

2- Joel Walker Lipsey, Tina's teacher. He wasn't convicted of anything until years later, but Joel was clearly grooming several of his students in 81, including Tina. Still, he was NOT a statistic in 81.

3- Daniel French. Certainly a repeat molester of, at minimum,Tina and the other victim. Never pursued by PCSO, never convicted, NOT a statistic. EVER, to my knowledge.

That's the only three known pedos in the area of the crimes at the time of the murders, and none of them were convicted of any crime yet- if ever. And NOT ONE OF THEM were involved in the murders or lived in Keddie. Of course, it's easy to see Shanks as one of the few bad core PCSO apples involved in screwing the case- but you're blind and think PCSO weren't involved, that they were just crappy investigators- so Shanks is another kmik hero. Every other mention of pedos in the area is 100% unsubstantiated dog manure, not worth any mention here or elsewhere. Even Loon's BS about Bo being into "young girls", even Mama Meeks' assertions Marty must be a pedo due to his sick jokes, don't hold water. If every asshole who made that joke were guilty of pedophilia, half of the males of America- and at least half of ALL LE- would be in jail.

If sticking to FACTS means ANYTHING (and it DOES), there is absolutely NOTHING that points to pedos as remotely involved in the murders. All the crazy, absurd conjecture gets you right back to Square One: such crazy-ass BS puts you right back in the shoes of the fools that convicted the McMartins. Yet you have the obtuse temerity to deem the FACTS of this case 'unconvincing'? This forum is not for wanking! I'm sure there must be thriving forums filled with ass-hats trying to convince themselves the McMartins and WM3 were guilty as charged, but that head-up-the-butt blindness doesn't fly here.

It seems very hard for you, kmik, to swallow the FACT that ALL BODIES WERE STAGED. There's nothing whatsoever, other than baseless and wild speculation, pointing to Tina's body being taken from the cabin and posed miles away for any other reason than to CONFUSE THE CRIME SCENE AND MISLEAD. With no facts or LOGIC to support the idea Tina left 28 alive, much less to be sexually abused, any such wild spec only proves, 35 years later, these incredibly moronic killers continue having great success confusing dupes.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby joe_mcplumber » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:22 pm

I'm not sure the basis for your outrage here dmac. "The boys got a ride from bad people" has always been the *other* main theory besides "Marty and Bo did it".

So if someone would have come forward to say "I drove the boys from Quincy and dropped them off in Keddie at (X) o'clock thirty" then that theory could be put to rest. Being as it was an exceptionally infamous event and a major regional news item, it's nearly a certainty that whoever gave them a ride would've heard about the murders and made the connection with the kids they picked up hitchhiking. It should be expected that they would have then reported to the PCSO. They didn't.

So that only leaves, the boys walked, which would have been an unusual choice and which should have put sightings of them at various points along the highway, (don't know what you mean "accounts for them not being seen"), or, whoever gave them a ride didn't want to admit it.

What kmik said has bothered me for years as the single most significant thing that didn't happen. It very much matters.

Pretending that the 11:00 sighting is accurate, another excellent question would be "why the hell were the boys hitching TOWARDS Quincy?" Or heck even, WHERE "enroute"? Maybe they were walking to Keddie and Kevin misunderstood what they were doing, and maybe when sighted they were still an hour from home? Jeebus what a sloppy mess of an investigation.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:24 am

I came back on this morning to compile the November newsletter, which I forgot to write/send before going on vacation. I noticed a couple posts I shouldn't let go unanswered while taking a month away from this case and site. I won't answer them all, and do so hastily. Forgive any errors or perceived anger, I'm trying to quickly make a point with a light touch. I'm sure I'll fail at both, as usual.

Basis of outrage? Review the poll I posted. If one votes 'YES' on the poll, it means one is willing to favor a hypothesis based on (often exponentially insane) layers of unfounded speculation, without the existence facts to back it up. In doing so, one can't explain the logic of said twisted theory (probably because there is none), nor does one ever explain away how, point-by-point, it conflicts with KNOWN FACTS. Voting 'YES' means one willfully ignores logic and facts in favor of wild and unfounded speculation, without bothering to show a scrap of evidence supporting said theory.

Outrage? More like TEDIUM from iterating the obvious: For anyone to postulate on "The Ride Home", much less create or buy into any of a zillion equally-unfounded ride-based theories presented over the years, one must logically address many contradictory things, such as it being unprovable. Perhaps that's the romance factor: people fall for lame theories because it is clean and The End. No thought or logic needed, even if it's a ridiculously stupid conclusion.

Here's some random thoughts, not in order. Some are meant for Joe, others for the blind who want to speculate insanely. They're not always mutually exclusive, but it should be obvious when they are.

Why not be another of the scores of idiots who came before: believe voraphile/pedophile Craig Walters' bullshit story about dropping J&D off in Keddie and be done with it: it's as pointlessly moronic and absurd as any other claim. Oh, that's right- Craig said J&D were alive and well when he dropped them off, so that contradicts the need to have the killers be in the car.

We have scant few sightings of J&D from the entire day and evening of Saturday (many of which are contradictory). Many sightings are known to be absolute fabrications. Why aren't there DOZENS more believable sightings?

Why do LE buy Kathy Beckley's account that J&D were at her place and she was going to take them to Keddie, but reneged at the last minute when mom called @ 7:30-7:45, asking her to come to dinner? Kinda LATE for a sudden dinner invite, eh?! I call "Bullshit!"

Determine, with ZERO FACTS, who last saw J&D in/near Quincy. Was it Dave and Joey? Or Kevin and Connie, over an hour later? If it was K&C, where the hell were J&D for that time?

Where were Marty, Marilyn, and Bo prior to the Back Door Bar? LE apparently never asked, but every alibi they gave was bullshit- Marilyn herself has, several times, changed the story of when they first went to the bar- and several hours apart. Maybe they gave J&D a ride home. Oops, nope, the idea of such a lame theory is to get away from Marty, Bo, and Loon as the killers. Pesky facts keep getting in the way of bullshit theories!

Define when J&D got the ride and why they were never seen ANYWHERE until they were killed? Where were they before the ride? After?

NOBODY KNOWS WHO'S TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT THE LAST SIGHTING.
NOBODY KNOWS IF THE BOYS EVER CAUGHT A RIDE EVEN PART OF THE WAY HOME.
UNTIL WE HAVE FACTS PROVING ANY OF THE ABOVE, ANY SPECULATION IS A BASELESS WANKFEST.

Joe, your observation about J&D not being seen unfortunately collapses under it's own weight. As you mentioned, it's such a small town (everyone knew each others biz) and the case is enormously high profile, so where are the ZILLIONS of other witness statements from people who MUST HAVE noticed J&D at or near Exxon? Friday night, they were in that vicinity for a couple hours, HUNDREDS of cars going by- yet scant believable eyewitness accounts, and by the SAME HANDFUL OF PEOPLE? I would expect the Exxon corner/area was a VERY popular zone on weekend nights- for QHS and FRC-aged kids alike. Plus ll the traffic to\from the dance? Where are the eyewitnesses, all the folks that knew and recognized Johnny and Dana on sight? NOWHERE. Certainly not on PCSO timelines, which are filled with accounts by psychotic asshats like Donna Williams. Why are the only believable accounts PCSO bother repeating from Dave Eisenman/Joey Carvalho? And why do PCSO believe Kathy Beckley's story about her reneging on taking J&D to Keddie in favor of a last-minute (nearly 8 pm) invitation for dinner by mom?

I've been up and down 70 between Q & K many times. As Google Street View proves, one can stay off the road {and away from traffic-related danger) much of the way when on foot. J&D were wearing dark clothing, apart from the white stripes adorning the sides of Johnny's jogging suit.

Here are a few pesky facts from my old research. Others have pondered on this for years, yet never bothered to look up: It was a waxing moon that night, at 57% illumination. The moon rose at 11:25 Sat morning, and set at 2:15 am Sun. It peaked at 69 degrees above horizon in the southern sky at 6:50 pm. It sank southwesterly to 54 degrees by 9 pm, and further west to 35 by 11 pm. Even if the night sky was void of clouds, the moon was behind trees and mountains for ALL the hours that matter; Moonlight did not illuminate much of anything that night, either when the boys were last seen in Quincy, or hours later when the murders began, or hours later when the killers were skulking around in the pre-dawn hours. Darkness was certainly in the killers' favor.

Whenever J&D truly were last seen, it would be commercial traffic, diners and barflies, and stragglers going between Q and outlying areas- incl. Keddie & the lodge. Only a couple believable accounts of J&D near Exxon are known to have surfaced, so why expect several sightings if they walked home? As for them being seen while walking down the canyon after hours of zero success getting a ride in well-lit Quincy (and scant few witness accounts surfacing after their murders), what makes you think people would notice them walking along 70 to Keddie, much less come forward to LE?

As for the sighting by Batten/Bodenham... Up the canyon, down the canyon, thumbing, walking, dancing in the street... What does it matter? Zero other known sightings. Why did NOBODY in Keddie see them come home? Nobody at the lodge/bar? There had to be people streaming in and out during the peak hours, (9-12). Zero witnesses. If one expects many sightings of J&D walking home, one must explain why they were barely noticed after standing for hours in a well- lit and popular area (particularly for people their age).

    "810411 11pm While en route to Keddie with Connie Batten, Kevin Bodenham, sees Johnny and Dana hitchhiking toward Quincy. (Kevin Bodenham/ Bradley) "

    "J&D hitching towards Quincy" makes no sense, because if Bodenham/Batten arrived in Keddie ten minutes later, they'd barely left Quincy when spotting J&D. Hitching/walking towards Keddie makes more sense, as it's a 2+ hour walk and would place them stumbling in on the murders around 1:15, or perhaps hanging out downstairs in Johnny's room shortly prior to the home invasion. See this post: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1309&p=16111&hilit=bodenham#p16121

As an aside, I've long pointed out there was a big, white cabin directly across the street from the front door of Cabin 28. I figured it was newer, possibly used by RR elite. Over all these years, despite photos clearly showing the cabin, people that were there (including Josh's staff) claim there was no such cabin. BULL. Only two people currently have agreed there was a cabin, and only AFTER I pointed it out in several photos. I've called it 'CABIN A', due to it's importance and not knowing an actual number (it falls out of the numbering sequence of known cabins).

WHY DON'T OCCUPANTS OF CABIN A APPEAR ON THE PCSO ROSTER?
WHERE ARE THE WITNESS TESTIMONIALS FROM OCCUPANTS OF 'A'?

Only recently, due to uncovering info in Timeline C, do we know the occupants of Cabin A: The Bodenhams!

Bodenham/Batten don't show up ANYWHERE ELSE in known documents. They're off the roster. Their witness account of "J&D hitching towards Q" are only buried in document C, not on the OFFICIAL TIMELINE printed and covering the walls of "The Keddie Room" at PCSO. My Q is NOT whether Bodenham and Batten concocted a lie, but whether PCSO concocted yet another one. I've not asked the current regime specifically about sightings or Bodenham, but for DECADES the PCSO line is that J&D were last seen at 9:30-9:45 pm by Dave and Joey. Why were B&B ignored? Why does it seem people prefer they- and cabin A- never existed? As for "hitching to Q", Timeline Z has proved other LE timelines consistently get things wrong- sometimes minor misunderstandings and sometimes what must be intentional lies.

In the case of this final eyewitness account, either PCSO or Bodenham/Batten are lying.

Finding out about the Bodenhams would clarify things. For now, it's just ONE MORE rabbit hole to fall into if someone wants to wank around about who picked J&D up, when, and the outcome of that ride. Without facts, the lack of logic in entertaining such crazy-ass, stupid spec is a wankfest hidden in a circle jerk wrapped in an orgy of self-gratification. Sans facts to hang that straw man upon, it's a limp-dick argument that leads nowhere and offers ZERO advancement of the case. It's a WASTE OF TIME.

Basis of outrage? A lot of it is between kmik and myself, most of it done in private emails. My recent disdain for kmik's 'logic', posts, emails, etc., is hopefully being expressed in a way that makes it obvious to all forum members that this forum is NOT for time-wasters who dismiss facts in favor of baseless and exponentially wild speculation. Such posts, without any support by logic or fact, are wastes of time and space.

I spent WEEKS painstakingly weeding Josh's version of this forum down from over 12,500 posts to a manageable 4500. In the 19 months this version of the forum has been operational, the post count has crept up to 7200. If I weeded it down again, I'm sure I could kill 500-1000 without any noticeable impact. So many things have been said SCORES of times in the past, particularly when it comes to disproved theories, and I don't want this forum to be filled with the same pointless BS that Josh preferred. This is why I expect people to USE FACTS when posting- even when speculating. Anyone too lazy to do that is not appreciated here.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby joe_mcplumber » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:48 pm

Here's some more of that context i promised...

Saturday night in Quincy would indeed have been busy, but *not* in the vicinity of the Exxon. Most adult traffic would have been foot traffic between the trinity of bars in East Quincy (Stone House, Bowling Alley, (Something... Door?), or the other trinity downtown (Bank Club, Capitol Club, Plumie's). Teen/young adult congregations, if they moved at all, would be generally between Snake Lake, Mt. Hough, Oakland Camp, or various house parties. Fresh kegs, 12 packs, etc. would be fetched from East Quincy or downtown liquor stores, not Exxon.

And, if i'm walking to Keddie from Quincy, which i have had numerous opportunities to do, i am ONLY taking the same route as a vehicle would because (a) there really isn't another efficient choice, and (b) it leaves open the possibility of someone i know giving me a lift. In the daylight, in good weather, i *might* take a few cuts over some hills, but only as a nice diversion, and those hills are near to Keddie so i'd have already walked miles in view of traffic.

But,

As i said elsewhere, i like to think Marty and Bo did it, because that's easy AND it is an answer. I've just long had doubts, *mostly* based on personal impressions of personalities and behaviors, somewhat based on even more personal relationships over the years, and very somewhat based on a few tangential but significant inconsistencies or unlikelihoods in that narrative. The awkwardness and strangeness of choosing Feahter Falls to take Tina, for one. The lack of someone reporting giving the boys a lift OR seeing them *somewhere* between Quincy and Keddie, for another.

That said, i can accept the explanations of light traffic, poor visibility, and/or lack of interest for the missing sightings along the highway. As for the general lack of sightings, as you say, hundreds of people who did not say anything one way or the other, i suppose it might have something to do with assumptions. I was only interviewed because of my associations. Had i not been interviewed, it might not have occurred to me to put in my 2 cents because i might've reckoned it irrelevant, and i might've reckoned that the sheriff was already overwhelmed with pennies. In other words, everyone assuming that everyone else is addressing the issue and therefore nobody actually doing it.

So there we have it. Lots of plausible reasons the boys weren't seen (or reported seen), either at Exxon or along the way home, and few, if any, reasonable reasons to fail to report giving them a lift. (Also, for conspicuous absences, no strange cars in the immediate vicinity of the cabin, and no unusual activity between the cabin and a speculative vehicle parked further away). There! We've established, the boys likely walked to Keddie. The "bad people gave them a ride" theory, cluttering up your forum, is gasping for air and going under. We exchanged speculations, you convinced me, and a likelihood was produced to displace a lingering doubt, for all to see and contemplate.

Then you went and said that the single sighting of the boys between Quincy and Keddie, is bullshit. What..?
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby kmik » Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:14 pm

In my above post I said:

The 2 major problems that appear to have existed in Plumas County at the time seem to be drugs and pedophiles.


That was just an assumption that I made based on what we have later learned. I was in no way trying to link a pedophile with the killings - only what the problems in Plumas seemed to be. I think that is a possibility - but was not trying to imply that here.

Glad to know you have changed your mind Dmac - just last year you wrote in a post:

by dmac » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:07 am
Keddie had a large number of pedos, but it also had a large number of druggies- and I don't mean residents who could afford the odd bag. There's plenty of things pointing to large-scale drug activity in the Keddie area, far bigger than whatever the local clientele was.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:50 pm

Joe- My post was a collection of ramblings, and I wasn't saying the Batten/Bodenham sighting was BS. I'm asking why PCSO and DOJ treated it like BS, why Bodenhams- and their huge cabin directly across the street from 28's front door- get no traction with LE or people that "remember the murders so perfectly". The Bodenhams, indeed, had some power if they had keys to the Post Office next door. I'm saying their sighting is just as pointless as PCSO's favored story: Dave and Joey were the last to see them at 9:30-9:45.

Without proper info, we'll never know which 'last sighting' is true. In the Big Picture, it's still a wankfest as it doesn't even help explain away long gaps in sightings, how they got home, or whichever "missing hours" there really were throughout the day, or between their last sighting and their entrance into the kill zone. With the current info (which has NOT CHANGED significantly in YEARS), there's nothing to tie their activities in the day with the outcome in 28.

I wasn't implying the boys took a shortcut home, just that there are long stretches between K&Q where one can walk beside 70 but an easy 20-50 feet away from the line of traffic- and visibility.

kmik, your "two most" phrase is crap, and was written as an introduction to your pathetic quote of a ridiculously stupid and assholy exploitation piece on youtube, where some human stain read the wiki entry and a few other equally stupid quotes on the Keddie murders. That you quoted that vile diarrhea as "documentary fact", and that you attempt now to falsely explain it away, speaks to your veracity (read: your open willingness to ignore facts in pursuit of empty theories).

I've never made claims that pedophilia ran rampant in Keddie or Plumas. Far from it, I've pointed out that most claims are completely unfounded twaddle, and that facts and figures contradict such explosive accusations. As for your quote, implying I've flip-flopped on the pedo stance, your cherry-picking quotes out of context is quite pathetic. When I wrote that 'Keddie was jam packed with pedos and druggoes', it was a juxtaposition of the long-held bullshit pervo assertions vs. a reasonable deduction about drugs in Keddie. Some people (such as yourself) still blindly believe a child rapist was around every corner, behind every tree, under every floorboard in Keddie. How such idiotic crap can be so widely and highly regarded these days, despite many attempts to dispel that vile cloud of BS with simple facts, speaks to the stupidity of humans and the poisonous power of gossip mongers.

You must have searched my posts to find that quote, just to present it out of context. Again, I was saying "lets not ignore the drug culture in Keddie, as there is far more fact behind it than the BS ramblings by a few people that has turned into the longstanding belief Keddie was a haven for the child sex trade". If your goal to discredit me hadn't been so blatant and sad, you would have noted the correct context of my statement, and that the post in question was nestled between these other remarks I made at the time regarding pedos:

Sat May 10, 2014 1:04 am
    "Were [Tina] a target, who involved in the murders is a pedophile? If Marty was a pedo, Loon would have screamed about it for the last 35 years. Her daughter would have mentioned it. Loon mentioned Bo had photos of very young 'wives' in his wallet... Dave Keller has tried to tie Bo to 'girls' by trying to convince Deb Bo did the Grimes murders in Chicago. This is complete Keller BS, and is easily debunked because those at CPD and Cook Cty SO have no references to Bo in their files, much less anything supporting Keller's claims that Bo was the last one seen with the Grimes, and that Bo was living in the area where they disappeared at that time. In fact, Bo's military records prove he was living thousands of miles away. Strike Three for Keller!"

Wed May 14, 2014 7:45 am
    "right, I agree that we cannot pull spec out of our butts, particularly something as dramatic and heavy as [claiming Bo was a pedo], with nothing but scattered BS from Loon as qualifiers. The fact a creep like Keller pulled the Grimes case out of his ass in order to try to squeeze info from Deb... People are shooting from the hip when they talk pedo without anything whatsoever remotely close to proof, and this case has grown beyond needlessly shooting from the hip."

Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:20 pm
    "There is a ton of accusations about Marty or Mr. Seabolt being pedos, but ZERO logical allegations from anyone trustworthy who would actually know. The allegations about Marty come from the tag team of Mamma Meeks and Marilyn- the Tri-M Conspiracy. As for Mr. Seabolt? Nobody here has, whatsoever, corroborated or even expanded the incredibly thin rumors on him. The most noteworthy source is Martell's interview in Pt 2, but she was living with Mike Davis in 13 at the time, the source of the circle-jerk alibi for Tony the Greek."

Keep burning them bridges, kmik. I don't recall the last time you made a post that wasn't completely ill-informed, defensive, and reminiscent of meankitty's brand of hypocritical spewing. How many more times do you intend to shoot yourself in the foot? If you want to survive here, I recommend you go back to researching names and genealogy. You're not bad at that. Avoid making posts where your lack of critical thinking skills, and your willful ignorance of facts, come to the fore. When it comes to bad and unsupportable theories and statements, I'll shoot them down regardless of who you think you are. That's free speech.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby IPO » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:38 pm

Mr. Seaboldt a pedo? Those rumours always made me think: do you really think Mrs. Seaboldt would have had Tina and Sue for frequent sleepovers if this were the case, From the videos, she seemed a very wise soul. She knew things weren't right in Sue's household and wouldn't let her daughter sleep over with Tina and Sue, Surely she would have known, and protected her daughter and other young girls, if she had felt her husband had any sexual interest in them. She struck me as no fool. I think this is one rumour that should have long ago been out to rest.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby joe_mcplumber » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:46 pm

This is footage from my dashcam from last spring. It's 8 minutes of driving down an unremarkable road in the mountains, from the Exxon to Keddie.

It's for people who care one way or the other, to determine for their own selfs if it's possible to walk from Quincy to Keddie at nighttime and not be seen.



Oops... that doesn't work

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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby leenie963 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:09 pm

Thank you for posting your video again. I'm in BFE on the coast of NC and it can be isolated but not like Keddie isolated. Puts things in perspective.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:37 am

I know Global Warming is fiction amongst American morons and worldwide Trumpians, so look at this:

See how wide the "creek" was raging in this drive-through? He filmed this in March, and I was walking across the swinging bridge in April 2000 with quite similar runuff bloating a stream to a runover river.

THE KEDDIE SWIMMING POOL ONLY EXISTS FOR A FEW WEEKS IN SUMMER. In April (Spring) the water is too cold and far too wide and turbulent to be safe for kids. How was the pant suit placed there after the murders yet before the runoff subsided to swimming-hole quality?

As for the ride from EXXON to the Keddie turn-off Yes, I see plenty of places where sporadic traffic is paying more attention to staying on the road than they would to a white stripe.

Johnny wore dark blue sweat pants with white stripes up the outer legs. Dana wore a red striped sweater but it was covered by darker clothing. These boys died that night and remain invisible because those that know refuse to be honest. Not one fucking thing to do with being seen on the road? BULLSHIT! I believe a few know-

That road is, and has ALWAYS been, drivers paying attention to the blind corners, not the now-dead boys dressed in black. I see that vid as exactly what my experience was-- drizzling shit rain for days. It did not rain that night, the skies were clear and DARK AS BLACK. Those boys were as good as invisible to most drivers.

Take a vid at night with 1980s quality headlights on that 1981 version of 70 and you'd admit J&D were more likely to be hit by a car than seen by occupants of another. Wait, if you want to be honest, the vid posted shows many huge areas of distance where the boys could have been off the road but walking alongside. As if "We are hitching from way over here in a cow field" makes any sense, as if Johnny and Dana inviting the killers into 28 makes sense.

The truth is in the middle.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:08 am

PS I know the road from Main in Q to MV has been improved over and over again, and I assume that 70 between Exxon and the Keddie Turnoff saw some improvements over the years. I believe these improvements would have been the bridge washout by Gansner. Upkeep, not establishing improvements. "A stitch in time" is the antithesis of Americana. Maybe some widening and re-striping for overtakes and turnoffs. When it comes to the Keddie Turnoff, I think I've nailed it:

No real difference. The schoolkids' stairwell by the pond collapsed in disrepair and is now rust. That stairwell used to lead to a poorly covered school bus stop on the west side of 70. Aerial CS photos show a cheap, insufficient windbreak was built at the mouth of the Keddie turnoff for all the school kids. It was in place prior to the murders. Keddie Heights, in those same shots, appears to be fenced off and defensive. Figure out what was in those CS photos and you're a druggie or military- probably both.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby joe_mcplumber » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:58 pm

With the exception of the striping, (which used to be a single dashed line pretty much from Jarbo Gap to Hallelujah Junction, which i thought must've been a sick inside joke at CADOT), some actual official turnouts with actual asphalt on them, and the passing lane at Snake Lake Road, the overall shape of things hasn't changed in the nearly 40 years i've known it.* Yeah, mostly upkeep and not quite enough of that.

Strange, really, i've seen so very many of my most beloved places paved over and covered with cardboard castles and strip malls. I guess i should be happy that Plumas stays more or less stuck in time.

Incidentally i first drove in at night, intending to pitch camp by the creek in lower Keddie. Only the bastards went and civilized it and now the trailheads have names to them, and there's signs all over telling me what i can't do. One of them being, pitch camp. :/ I went looking around, and it doesn't appear anything is really different except for they put up signs. The changes would be almost entirely cosmetic and practically illusory, but for Official Humans insisting that signs mean something real. And enforcing their reality, with guns.

---

* ,and the bike path and footbridge at Gansner.
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