New ME

facts surrounding the Keddie Murders, for beginners and up

New ME

Postby dmac » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:12 pm

I'm going through local sources to find retired MEs who may want to look at Keddie. I know these ME reports contradict themselves, each other, reality. We need third eyes. But it must be local, retired, as I won't SEND photos to ANYONE. I can't risk that, out of simple and pure respect for the victims.

I believe I've disturbed the nest enough for all of us to see the ME was sadly lacking, for whatever excuse. I also believe the ME's reports conflict with the few autopsy images I have.

I believe the ME is sound in declaring Sue died from stab wounds leaving 1/3 her blood in her chest cavity.Fuck, YES.

Sue had so many wounds due to events and tools used, and the ME doesn't touch upon them. Even the rifle target poked into her upper left cheek. Even the identical wounds to Sue's left eye and Johnny's left eye. Fuck me, this ME was out to lunch.

Perhaps that was the job description in 81.

I wrote this post because I was looking at Johnny's autopsy photos. His skull is exposed, his scalp cut and drawn back. Those two hammer shots to his head had much more deliberate force. I see them as connected, done at the same time. Not connected to other abuses the victims saw. Kill shot or staging, these two hits are obvious. Like the stab wounds to a dead man's chest, Johnny was out by the time this was done. God, this is so motherfucking sick.

Not fucking now. I don't need these images in my head today.
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Re: New ME

Postby dmac » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:37 pm

Too late. I'm looking at Sue's stab wounds. Concentrated, even the neck shot. Remove the tit slice and stab and this is an entirely different circumstance. All of them align with the killer being beside Sue's right side (laying on her back). The critical shit is the hesitation wounds, slice, and ultimate full penetration to her spine from under her left breast.

You guys know the toys at play, so don't fuck around. Who killed Sue?

There are wounds suggesting we have no damned clue. And we actually do. Are you up for that? I won't share photos of bodies.
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Re: New ME

Postby budrfligh » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:27 pm

For myself this is TRULY disturbing I hesitate to say what I am thinking out loud. It seems like forced participation to me. I say this for a couple reasons
1) hesitation- no way the killers were hesitant at this point.
2) the location seems to indicate that individual was kneeling and small.
Ffs I hope I am completely off base!
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Re: New ME

Postby Italian_pride26 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:44 pm

Long time watcher, first time post. I felt compelled to speak up on this one.

Budrfligh- I would have to think your thoughts are correct unfortunately. I have long thought that this was the forced participation to Justin. It unfortunately makes absolute sense. Small, hestitated probes, making cuts to show " ok I'm doing it, you can stop making me now" kind of thing. This would align with my own, and many others I assume, theory that Justin saw something, was forced to participate to make him a "killer" so he wouldn't speak out or turn on the others. Going by the details given by Dmac as to positioning and such, yeah, it fits. This would explain the love boat dream, the struggle, the covering up of Sue (out of guilt and sorry I would think), the play stabbing with his brother etc. . I'm no psychologist and never had a traumatizing event like this happen to me but I would think to a young impressionable mind like that, it very well could scar your psyche for life. This would explain Justin's reluctance to speak (out of fear for himself being guilty) and the subsequent mind torture by Marty to keep him reigned in permanently.

The other part to me though is that if he was only able to bring himself to do the probes or shallow cuts, even under pressure from the others could he actually have delivered the killing strike? I'm of the mind he could not. I believe out of anger to Justin's reluctance, Marty grabbed the knife and shoved it in and said "that's how it's done." Which would explain the Bent knife which would have hit the spine and bent. Buuuuuttt....on the other hand, it could have ultimately been Justin that did it which ties back in to my thoughts on why he won't speak. Or (if I had a third hand) tying back into me not being a psychologist, that regardless of what actually transpired he blocked it out anyway.

So many hands....so many dirty filthy bloody hands in this case. Metaphorically and physically speaking.
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Re: New ME

Postby budrfligh » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:14 pm

Italian-- I think it's just the details now. I've done some brutal crime research, but this gets under my skin. I am thinking about the zygomatic injuries. These were done - face to face. They were seriously up close and personal, yet the kids had zero to do with the "passion" of the kill. That was for Sue. I can't imagine what she went through watching them brutalize her children. I have a Huge soft spot for Tina, as an abuse survivor and the product of an emotionally unavailable mother. I cannot let go of her sweet face. Haunting and calling me back time and again for justice. This is a case I'm determined to see closed.
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Re: New ME

Postby budrfligh » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:18 pm

The narcissistic, sociopath Loon and her psycho-abusive hubby n gritty 'mafioso' pal sure collided into the perfect storm for such heinous and unintelligible acts. We want to know why, but there is no fucking way we can understand this lv of sick, twisted, and vile act, no way. I think it's easier to understand the pigs that covered it up. ( my apologies to pigs )
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Re: New ME

Postby dmac » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:22 pm

Damn, Budr, you sound a bit too much like me. I'm so damned determined about Tina, that she wasn't the target, that this was about Sue. Tina wasn't taken alive, wasn't brutalized. For what it's worth, I don't think I could stomach believing that horrendous pile of bile. If this is really about Tina, I've been wasting your time.

Fortunately, all the evidence- including Marty's own words- indicate Sue was the target and everyone else collateral. I tell ya what, I'm happy evidence backs me up because I don't think I've got the guts or brains to allow this to be about Tina. That would severely fuck up my tiny head.

We have in our minds romanticized versions of the victims, including Tina. None of them are true. it's difficult to unwrap yourself from building a fake front relationship with the case. It's hard to care without falling victim to personalizing. Facts are we don't know these people whatsoever. I've heard so much about Tina, and all I can say is her life is unfortunate and inexcusable. The sickest part is we're trying to dissect her death rather than help the thousands of Tinas right outside our doors.

That alone is unforgivable evil. What the fuck are we doing wrong? Try 'everything'.

We're trying to unfuck 40 year old lies. Try fixing your own yard, asshole.

The very fucking fact two years back PCSO saved a girl's life, brutalized and victimized and serially assaulted, in the same complex Loon moved to with Wade, right next door to Meeks, is about all we need to know. Shouldn't we use our massive brains to CHANGE, rather than prosecute? Fuck me, my response to my own Q is less than feeble.

Budr, thanks for surviving and understanding the absolute grief of this case. We're climbing out of bodies to make certain this wasn't as bad as it could be, that Sue was the target. Shifting targets, wow am I fucked. That's about the best and worst news of this whole fuckup. Other than unmasking the charade of fraud LE that allowed it to go. But, as you know, the coverup is a more severe and separate crime in my opinion.

Thanks, Ital and budr. You went straight for alleys I didn't want to see.

As a direct point, I find it difficult to be on the same board as those who choose to believe, against overwhelming evidence, that this was all about Tina. No evidence enjoys the latitude these asshats have taken in fulfilling their own sick dreams about rape, torture, murder. It's the Michael Jackson complex. He's a child rapist, not a pop star. He's Cosby. THIS IS MURDER.

Four on the floor. Mass murder allowed to happen under DT's watch. Evidence shows he had no hand in the act, but intentionally fucked the case for his own.

These are TWO CRIMES interwoven. Try investigating two tightly interwoven nightmares which include military and mafia backgrounds. ha ha, charade you are.

People ask why I go down these roads.

Where the fuck else would you look for the truth?!
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Re: New ME

Postby dmac » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:09 am

Budr, the big Q for me is that setup. Bo and Marty didn't meet at VA. So we must assume they knew each other or were set up. Via common slate: carny.

the VERY FIRST email I got from Boubede blood is perfect. "You're on target with Bo. He was kicked out of Vegas in the 70s for pulling carny scams. Moved to Reno" EVERYTHING checks out. "Bo knew Marty somehow. This was arranged. Bo didn't do ANYTHING unless there was something in it for him". "Bo dug holes, and he's lucky he's not in one. Yet."

That, as a rule, is the crest on Bo's head. Bo didn't do ANYTHING unless there was something in it for him

Why was he in 26? Read the crest. I think he was doing small-time carny dickless shit with Marty and Dee. The murders were Marty's fake birthday party. April 11, 1981. Not Bo, Marty and Loon. Bo was caught in the mix, it wasn't his idea, but he knew blood would spill and took over the staging. The staging is out of whack because Bo had no real experience (mafia: shoot, walk away), Marty... Fuck, Marty. Jesus christ! He and Loon were a perfect fit of fucked heads.

Marty complains that he wanted to kill and get out. indeed, he was complaining that he fucked up. He did the staging, and then resented himself for it.

Who else could show that hatred towards Sue? Who else could contradict the entire scene by making Sue the most focused-upon victim? Marty couldn't help but make it a sex crime against Sue.

Man, I'd love for a real brain to judge this case. I think I'd be lucky at 50/50.
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Re: New ME

Postby budrfligh » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:47 am

There doesn't seem to be one collective motive here which keeps us spinning for traction. I have come to believe that each individual involved had their own twisted motives. I don't think B/M met at the VA. I am not sure how they met unless it is through the carnival connection. Just like I don't think it's a coincidence that the "buck knife" Mr hippy dippy dude at the back door was wearing was an actual murder weapon. ( verified yet?) Marty thought he was super slick and smart. He intermingled truth in lies designed to cover his ass. If they uncovered the buck knife, well he had explained that hadn't he?
The ugliness of this crime is daunting. I honestly don't want to go there yet I must. We are looking at rage, personal intimate rage. The lv of hate required for this blood party is almost unfathomable. I have been going over unread posts, a new discovery, and am picking up new info. For example ai thought there was no COD
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Re: New ME

Postby budrfligh » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:50 am

Sorry
Cod for Tina but then I discovered the zygomatic fractures and was like Jesus they did that to a baby. It was face to face too I realized after I looked up the medical term. This is just savage but indicates that personal aspect to me. My dreams last night were disturbing.......
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Re: New ME

Postby leenie963 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:54 pm

Few thoughts.

I have to say reading this thread actually has me upset. It brings it in a vivid way that is exacting in its horror. Unlike y'all, I can't go there yet. I've already had disturbing dreams about this case.

Is there anything we can do to help secure an ME? I'd imagine Sheila would have to give permission for exhumation. I've no doubt she lurks but her voice would resonate louder than anyone. If not her, where are the brothers in this other than silence?
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Re: New ME

Postby Chichibcc » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:40 am

I think getting a forensic consultant would be more along the lines of what would be needed as far as finding an ME; below are a couple of related links I found, for example:

https://netforum.avectra.com/eweb/Dynam ... ForConsult

http://www.forensicjournals.com/consulting/

https://expertpages.com/experts/indepen ... aminer.htm
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Re: New ME

Postby dmac » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:44 pm

Sorry, I seem to have missed some new posts in this thread. In order of replies:

Budr: There isn't one motive. One of the major frustrations is seeing so many idiots asking "what was the motive?!" "Jesus Christo, Speedy Gonzales..." who expects multiple killers to have a uniform motive? These idiots couldn't even agree on, or stick to, the script of the Loonibi! This post is old and needs an update, but the core points (and much of what's fleshed out) remain true. I think, at the root, is Loon pulling the strings (how else would Marde be informed enough to come to the 'opinion' Sue was meddling in his sham marriage?).

We don't (yet) have other interviewees' versions of events regarding MMB at the bar but, dollars to donuts, MMB drank more than claimed. This was Marde's birthday, after all. None of Bo's and Marde's claims of alcohol intake at the Back Door remotely match each other or, therefore, the truth. They lied and, as a rule, who's going to claim they drank MORE rather than less? This was a murder investigation, not Monday morning water cooler jabber in a high school locker room (or Trump's campaign bus).

Were they on weed / speed? Both Marde and Bo mention drugs in their interviews: Marde dosing Bo, Bo crashing and burning as soon as dosed. Even in the corrected transcripts, one of the first things Marde says when bursting in on Bo's interview is this gem:

"Smartt: I put your medicine up, and didn't leave it out for you." Within seconds of being in the room, Marde is apparently setting up key points of the Loonibi:

> Bo is Loon's uncle
> They both have epilepsy
> Marty is responsible for dosing Bo (but no mention of dosing Loon?! And, why in hell does Bo need Marty to dose him? Bo can't take his own pills, or measure his own 'Spoon Full of Sugar?)
> The moment Bo takes his meds, he's dead to the world, thus incapable of making others truly dead.

All the above points are lies. Curiously, why would Marty talk about putting Bo's meds away? Why were they out from the night before? As Marty later states in his own 'interview', the pills knock Bo out. Why the fuck would Bo knock himself out at 1130 am? And why would Loon place Bo as out and wandering all over Keddie in the middle of the night if Marty's dosing made Bo collapse and snore? Hell, Loon even said Bo's jacket or robe or the like wasn't where he'd put it the night before. She said she noticed that "first thing" Sunday morning?! I thought the first thing she noticed was Justin telling her everyone was murdered. She sure pays attention to the wrong shit, huh? A normal person would first recall the murders they'd just committed, rather than Bo's misplaced robe.

And, YES, you're spot on about Marde and the Buck knife:

    "Smartt: You live here awhile and you see 'em. I used to work in the restaurant here and I become familiar with a lot of the customers, and that one individual... Well, just the way he carried himself, he looked like trouble. He looked out of place for that type of establishment, is what I mean.

    Bradley: Okay...

    Smartt: He was in a t-shirt and Levi's and wearing a buck knife, extremely long hair. Uhh... "

None of the knives found at the crime scene, or the knife Justin mentioned (Swiss Army-type, found bloody when PCSO recovered it from the Gen Store trash), account for all the wounds- particularly Sue's knife wounds. And the guy was a stranger to the area, only wearing a t-shirt when it was roughly 45 degrees out at that hour? He musta left his blood-spattered denim shirt under a knife, hammer, and flute at a nearby murder scene...

As for the zygo issue on Tina's skull, Josh briefly showed in his vid a shot of Tina's skull slide. I took a grab of it and photoshopped it so it was proportionally accurate. The result shows what appears to be a significant portion of Tina's right cheekbone (zygoma) missing. Murad had concluded it may have been from nibbling varmints, but I wonder. If it had been shattered by a blow, the varmints could have zeroed in on it and eaten away at the fracture, thereby hiding the truth. Still, a hammer to the cheek isn't close to COD.

Who did the killers hammer in the face / mouth? We KNOW Sue and Dana. Sue was also gagged- because they wanted her alive for a spell, and QUIET. The others were silenced in death, so why smash Dana in the mouth? Seems Tina was likely the screamer, so why not smash her in the mouth? The zygoma isn't the mouth: Dana & Sue took shots directly to their mouths. Broken teeth.

Leenie & Chi-

My issues with finding an ME or pathologist, or someone in a related field, is it almost MUST be local. We have no bodies (all conveniently cremated right after the autopsies... Sue's & Dana's death certs indicate it happened on the 16th- I don't have Johnny's death cert, but we can assume they were all dispatched at the same time)

In other words, all we have are the reports, and a few autopsy/morgue photos. I know where the ME assisting in these autopsies is today but, again, I want to keep it local. I won't risk giving copies of these photos to anyone- not hard copies, not digital copies. I won't risk these getting online, ever.

Anyone with experience can say whether info is contradictory, too vague, incomplete, etc. I find these reports contradictory to themselves, but that doesn't mean another ME finds ineptitude. Or even anything out of the ordinary. At least with a local, I could let them come to their own conclusions first, and then ask questions about conflicts and vagueries I find. Then I can ask him/her to speculate on other things, such as the blood spatter on the wall, similarities in wounds shared by J & S, bruising on Dana and Sue similar to the W4 wound on Dana's buttocks, wounds on S & D consistent with a pellet, etc, etc.
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Re: New ME

Postby leenie963 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:28 pm

Pro Bono is also beneficial. Don't box yourself in with local. Sometimes it takes outside to see inside.
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Re: New ME

Postby meankitty » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:22 pm

leenie963 wrote:Few thoughts.

I have to say reading this thread actually has me upset. It brings it in a vivid way that is exacting in its horror. Unlike y'all, I can't go there yet. I've already had disturbing dreams about this case.

Is there anything we can do to help secure an ME? I'd imagine Sheila would have to give permission for exhumation. I've no doubt she lurks but her voice would resonate louder than anyone. If not her, where are the brothers in this other than silence?
There is a problem with an exhumation for Sue and Johnny, since I did hear they were cremated. I don't know what happened to Dana or Tina.
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Re: New ME

Postby dmac » Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:19 am

Leenie- the thing about 'local' is it means I'm one-on-one discussing this with a human face, showing everything I have.

There's no bodies to exhume, there's very little phys evidence. As I've tied to explain, given the lack of info and my absolute dismissal of the idea of handing out autopsy images to people I don't know, 'local' is not only the best option, it's the only option.

Of course, I do know the guy who assisted on the autopsies. In fact, I slept about forty yards from his office one night. I'll be approaching him within a week if all goes as planned.

MK- the bodies were all cremated on the 16th. From Keddie to the Quincy mortuary to the Sac slab to the flame in four motherfucking days. It's amazing how The System screwed this case and couldn't even tie their own shoelaces, yet they eliminated the very best evidence within hours of the bodies becoming room temp.
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Re: New ME

Postby budrfligh » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:18 am

Dmac,
In my son's case I could not retrieve his remains for cremation until AFTER the trial as he was evidence. I am not sure if this is standard or good old fashioned Chicago fuckery. I am deff suspicious of the speedy cremation of these victims. I would wonder if hubby or Sue's brother/relative had to sign off on this.
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Re: New ME

Postby leenie963 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:15 pm

Who and why were they all cremated so damn soon? There has to have been authorization. Who signed off? Lets guess...no record. No wonder you are so close to the vest.

Personal Q: DMac how much more can you personally invest in this case? I was truly hoping after the national exposure with People this would explode with leads, authoritative and medical help, etc. You're like a pit bull with jaws locked on...admiring strength and tenacity yet hopeful in what it can mean to this case...justice!

I'm way out on the coast of NC but if there is anything I can do to help--research or look things up for you locally I'm always here to help.
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Re: New ME

Postby dmac » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:01 pm

Let's look at the arc, the average.

Most people aren't autopsied, despite the fact the law demands it if there are any specific ambiguities or suspicions.
Gamberg has told me the ME reports aren't good or bad, that the ME did it because the Plumas County coffers were empty.

Keep in mind, legally, only one man can control the deceased: Zamfir Douglas Thomas on Ice.

I've seen bodies stay in storage for months when Sac can't get rid of a corpse. I mean SAC, where this happened.

Why the fuck were these pulverized murder victims torched after two days?

Why the fuck?

Pardon, but 'fuck' is a new key word I'm using. Like it or fuck off. At this level of astonishment, "gosh golly" can't fix a proper fuck.
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Re: New ME

Postby leenie963 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:58 pm

Fuck. I'm so in.
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