regarding DNA at the scene

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:47 am

The case is primarily solved, just not prosecuted- yet. Will we ever know all the details, or have a better idea of motives?

It's similar to the Manson murders. That case is a clusterfuck of supposed motives and unprosecuted participants. At the root was NOT Bug's theme of 'Helter Skelter' ( his theme of Manson's 'family' instigating a race war, only to retreat into magic caves while blacks killed off all the whites, only to emerge afterwords so Manson could reign supreme over what was left of mankind). Nooo, the motives and design were far simpler: Like the Beltway Snipers, it was a stupid revenge plot with intentionally misdirected blame.

Cielo Drive (Tate) was chosen because Doris Day's son, Terry Melcher, used to live there with Candace Bergen. Melcher had somewhat promised Manson a recording deal, but was put off by Charlie's madness and dropped him. Slighted, Manson threatened Melcher and Beach Boy Dennis Wilson prior to and after the spree.

Oh, and don't forget Beach Boys re-wrote Manson's "Cease To Exist" as "Never Learn Not to Love", and Manson was incensed they'd changed the lyrical meaning from 'giving up the Id' , ceasing to be you, to loving EVERYTHING. A direct contrast to his dictates. Beach Boys. Album called 20/20. Look it up. Manson was pissed at Melcher and Dennis and all Beach Boys.

By the time Charlie ramped up the talk, follower Bobby Beusoleil had already been ID'd and jailed for the murder of Gary Hinman, so killing everyone at Cielo had a twofold purpose: send a message to Melcher AND cast doubt on Bousoleil's obvious guilt by committing copycat murders. The night after Cielo, Manson chose the LaBianca house simply because it was adjacent to a house at which he used to party.

Bug didn't properly target or prosecute Manson and the others. As a result, few know the true story, and that Manson and others (probably Bruce Davis and Clem) went to Cielo around 3-4 AM and attempted to draw and quarter Sharon, first hanging her from the front porch. That's when the trunks got moved, the eyeglasses posed (again, to throw off the investigation), and the large amount of Sharon's blood posited on the front stoop. The fact is Manson pussies were too weak to lift and hang Sharon, and their attempts were abandoned in favor of a loud argument on the front lawn, overheard by neighbors. 4:30 am. Few also know Manson's orders included attacking and killing everyone in the homes adjacent to 10050.

So, as with Manson, we know the gist of what happened, that the motives for the murders are far more mundane and realistic than most bombastic theories, and that other participants are still in need of massive doses of justice.

< I added some stuff and fixed multiple manglings of typos. Bugliosi fucked Manson for a wrongful conviction just to get him CONVICTED in the PUBLIC MIND, and I'm regretfully happy it worked. The result is "we're fucked">

Bug's prosecution was a dangerous slope I wish not to repeat.

Bug knew Manson could walk if prosecuted, particularly under the unprecedented BS by slackass street press. Bug lied to make Charlie the killer.

Charlie was the killer, Bug was right in fucking the case to screw "justice" to kill a true danger.

Bug was right, but I despise Bug. And Manson.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby JEP » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:41 pm

Really good analogy. I happen to agree with you on this. I think if you asked the majority of people why they do some of the destructive and hurtful things in their lives, they would be at a loss to answer you. Who knows why people cross the line into murder. The vast majority are over sex, revenge, or money. I think we can safely rule out money here. That leaves sex and revenge. None of the suspects ever murdered again, at least I don't think they did.

In the end, what happened and why it happened are relative and may forever remain a mystery. What we are left with are four murdered people who deserve justice. I really hope that happens.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby leenie963 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:42 pm

dmac wrote:The case is primarily solved, just not prosecuted- yet. Will we ever know all the details, or have a better idea of motives?

It's similar to the Manson murders. That case is a clusterfuck of supposed motives and unprosecuted participants. At the root was NOT Bug's theme of 'Helter Skelter' ( his theme of Manson's 'family' instigating a race war, only to retreat into magic caves while blacks killed off all the whites, only to emerge afterwords so Manson could reign supreme over what was left of mankind. Nooo, the motives and design were far simpler: Like the Beltway Snpers, it was a stupid revenge plot with misdirected blame.

Cielo Drive (Tate) was chosen because Doris Day's son, Terry Melcher, used to live there with Candace Bergen. Melcher had somwhat promised Manson a recording deal, but was put off by Charlie's madness and dropped him. Slighted, Manson threatened Melcher and Beach Boy Dennis Wilson.

By the time Charlie ramped up the talk, follower Bobby Beusoleil had already been ID'd and jailed for the murder of Bobby Hinman, so killing everyone at Cielo had a twofold purpose: send a message to Melcher AND make cast doubt on Bousoleil's obvious guilt by committing copycat murders. The night after Cielo, Manson chose the LaBianca house simply because it was adjacent to a house he used to party at.

Bug didn't properly target or prosecute Manson and the others. As a result, few know the true story, and that Manson and others (probably Bruce Davis and Clem) went to Cielo around 3-4 AM and attempted to draw and quarter Sharon, first hanging her from the front porch. That's when the trunks got moved, the eyeglasses posed (again, to throw off the investigation), and the large amount of Sharon's blood deposited on the front stoop. The fact is these pussies were too weak to lift and hang Sharon, and their attempts were abandoned in favor of a loud argument on the front lawn, overheard by neighbors. Few also know Manson's orders included attacking and killing everyone in the homes adjacent to 10050.

So, as with Manson, we know the gist of what happened, that the motives for the murders are far more mundane and realistic than most bombastic theories, and that other participants are still in need of massive doses of justice.


Motive can be right under the surface, in your face, or withheld from those who know the 'truth'. Since victim resurrection will never happen, we are always left with puzzle pieces--from survivors, those who committed the murders, and those who make a mint from selling the official "story".

In the end it is always speculative. People will believe what they find comfortable to allow in. This case, to me, is so much worse than Manson. The pieces are in position. The players have been named and exposed. And yet nothing. Nothing close to justice, nothing close to that bullshit word closure.

Best be prepared it may never happen. Seems no one gives a flying fuck in this day and age of Amber Alerts what went down in Cabin 28 on April 11 1981.

(sorry, caught me in a morose mood)
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby Billyalshef » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:29 pm

I would be willing to wager that decrona,stoy. Bradley,Crim and Thomas have more blood on there hands than just this case, they are hailed hero's but are accessories after the fact. Anyone willing to do the things they have done in the name of monetary gain, or any reason for that matter has most likely went on to repeat this offense . Hopefully the DNA is a start for finally revealing the truths. The victims living and gone had there civil rights violated, they were judged and denied because of there financial status. Deemed disposable ,poor, and worthless. Yet the corrupt have all lived and prospered , false servants of the people.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:26 pm

JEP, thanks for seeing the analogy through my poorly-worded misspellings. Both are crazy murders, yet mundane to the instigators.

Leenie, I'm usually the cockeyed frustrate. Relax, behold a sunrise. Don't go Trump on me and square off at a non-existent eclipse... For extra points, name where this line originates: "Poor boy, spent too much time observing the sun through a telescope! His squint was permanent."

BuildingAShelf (fixingaroom, Beatles): Your mistaking the coverup as entwined with the actual murders. I was asked if the murders would be solved, and I simply do not connect the reasoning behind the coverup with the actual murders. I'll state it clearly, yet again:

MURDERS
<connective gap>
COVERUP

The coverup was committed by LE who had something in common with the killers, therefore exposing BMM at trial would expose higher corruption. So we're talking lying, cocklicking CA-DOJ and lonely Doug Thomas' PCSO. What was in common? Money? power? drugs?

Oh, all are the same, thanks to Sesame Street!.



Drugs. Bo, Marty, Sly, DOJ.

Just a damned clueless guess. DOJ were shoveling Reagan's and Bush's coke through the USA? Coincidence!
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:51 pm

As for color of hair, dammit, that's why I looked up this thread today! I work six days per week and my last day off was years ago, so I'm tired, distracted, and fail to get to the point.

The point is I'm not certain of the color of hairs found in/near Johnny's hand.

I got a PM from a longstanding member who (thankfully) draws yet more reasonable doubt to the "white" hair conclusion. Coming directly from the ME report on Johnny, I was reminded of the wording: something like "brown, tan, and white hairlike fibers" were taken from Johnny's wrists and hands and given to Forcino. What was in his hands? Dried in the blood of his hands? c'mon folks, a poet wrote that, like DeCrona. Was it in the tape? Grasped in his fingers? (no, the photos show all fingers relaxed at the time of autopsy)? Dried in blood? WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT MEAN???

One must compare Johnny's ME report directly to the report of the mass melting of the PCSO refrigerator. One must assume the missing hairs came from the ME (handed off to Forcino), and, therefore, could be three colors. But I don't assume SHIT with this case.

The ME was a lazy fucknut. Read the entire report before deciding what hairs were found on, in, or near Johnny's hands. Then compare it to what said ME reports was taken from Johnny. VAGUE. Then compare it to the report of what was MISSING from Johnny's rape kit.

Them's the facts.

I work six days a week, lemme know who has the time to look up that important fragments of which fuckers all fit the category of hairs found in Johnny's hand, actually stuck into the bloody bits but not the tape.

It's damned important, so don't mock me. I simply cannot give a fuck at this stage of the game. I need another holiday from life, but suicide is permanent! hee hee.



Note who wrote the lyrics, then figure out for yourself why the TV series producers made the theme song an instrumental.

The ME was a fucknut, and my best guess is whatever was written as the description of the empty bag in Johnny's rape kit were as empty as that fucking ME's head, multiplied by all the dumb fucks who came between him and the rape kit.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:06 pm

From Johnny's aut rept:

    "Caught up on the tape, on the dorsal and on the ventral surface of the
    hands as well as within the palms of both hands are multiple hairs or
    hair-like structures, generally light tan in color, sometimes somewhat
    brown in color, and in one instance one of the hair-like structures is
    whitish in color. Attached to the right anterior sleeve of the subject's jacket are
    several more hairs. They are attached in portions of blood clot in this
    location...

    At ll:OO A.M. the following entities are given to Detective Forcino:
    the lower ligature, electric cord, the hand and wrist ligature, white
    adhesive tape, the hairs from the hands, the hairs from the anterior
    right external jacket sleeve and all the clothing just described. The
    hairs have been placed in appropriately labeled and sealed plastic
    envelopes."

Dated 10-26-2004.

    On 09/07/04 Investigator P. and I defrosted an evidence freezer that contained autopsy kits from the Keddie Homicides, including DNA and blood samples from Glenna Sharp, John Sharp, and Dana Wingate.

    The condition of the freezer was found in the following state. The freezer was stored in a locked evidence room at the Plumas County Jail Facility. The freezer was plugged into an outlet and had electrical power. It should be noted that the freezer has been without power during electrical outages in the past years. It is unknown if the contents in the freezer completely thawed or not.

    The freezer door was frozen closed with ice. We had to pry open the door. Once opened, the interior of the freezer was basically a solid piece of frozen ice. After chipping the block of ice from the top shelf, we recovered three cardboard buckets/autopsy kits of Glenna Sharp, John Sharp, and Dana Wingate.

    The autopsy kits were removed from the freezer. I discovered all three of the cardboard tops of the kits had been pushed down a couple of inches into the interior of the containers by the weight of the frozen ice. I cleared the ice from the top of the container and removed the paper lids. The kits contained a small amount of ice, which was removed. The items inside the kits were sealed in clear plastic bindles and evidence bags. The tops were placed back on the kits and resealed and sent to DOJ for DNA analysis.

    On 10/26/04 I received the attached DOJ Physical Evidence Examination Report of the finding from those kits. Some of the items will be submitted to the DOJ Richmond Lab for DNA analysis. This report will be forthcoming at a later date.

    During the course of the case, Investigator F. submitted additional evidence back on 04/10/03 and 07/08/03. These evidence items were in the form of hair samples recovered from the scene next to Glenna Sharp and from John Sharp's hand. These hair samples were examined for any root material. There was not enough root material on the hair for DNA analysis.

    Abbreviated list of submitted evidence to DOJ:

    Hair from John Sharp's hands
    Hair from floor between Glenna Sharp and couch
    Hair from floor near feet of Glenna Sharp
    Left-hand fingernail scrapings from all three victims
    Right-hand fingernail scrapings from all three victims
    A blue and white shirt with stains
    Debris and hair collected from the blue and white shirt

    The fingernail scrapings were repackaged and saved. No hairs were observed in the plastic bag labeled "hair from left hand" or the plastic bag labeled "hair from right hand."

    The blue and white shirt and the debris/hair from the shirt were not examined. The items were previously examined in 1984 and found not to be connected to the case.

    The hairs were examined for any root material. One root was observed on a hair collected from John Sharp's hands. These is not enough root material on the hair for DNA analysis. No roots were observed on the remaining hair.

Note how no mention of whose hands the empty bags of hair belonged to? However, one can roughly assume from other info (incl aut reports) that the only hair collected from hands are from Johnny's hands.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby JEP » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:23 pm

Okay, this is pretty interesting. Can you elaborate on the list of samples that were sent for DNA analysis? The hair samples were no good because there wasn't enough of the root to obtain a good sample. How about the fingernail scrapings? I really thought that was what may have indicted Justin, not the weapon. I mean the weapon is good, but fingernail scrapings would put him in prison, in my opinion.

Why did they wait until 2003 to look at the DNA?
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby JEP » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:17 pm

Another question. If hair samples were tested for DNA, we're assuming the hairs from both hands were tested, right? Is it feasible that the hairs were removed from the original evidence bags and placed in a new one? Why would they put the empty bags back in the freezer? Why would an evidence refrigerator not be maintained properly? Is ANYTHING about this case not totally screwed up? It is starting to seem like some of the LE coverup motive is due to total incompetence. Geez, what a mess.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:04 pm

All good Qs, and there are various threads re: reports concerning DOJ/DNA tests at varying stages of the supposed investigation. In most cases, the reports give little info, and we haven't access to any results or corresponding reports. For instance, we have reports of what the ME collected (via autopsies), Forcino's own report of how he dropped off evidence, and then a report (such as the one above) showing new DNA tests were conducted as DNA tech progressed. For instance, by 2017, much more can be pulled from hair without roots, and with far smaller samples. Hell, we now have CONTACT DNA, ffs!

Another example is the incongruous reports concerning the discovery of Tina's skull, the collection of that evidence, test results, and current disposition. Hell, both Gam and I went over this shit line by line and were blown away reports can't even agree on what fucking day she was found.

Clusterfuck, and considering Crim choppered in to oversee the searches after the 'anonymous call', my bet is it's absolutely intentional.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby azucena » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:52 pm

okay, now i get it. I could not figure out why there were these discrepancies about the date when Tina was actually found. i thought i had mis read things. Now I see it is just another absurd mess up, likely intentional. but why? May it have something to do with the individual, Mr Pedrini (sp)who allegedly found the remains? At this juncture, can we even believe anything? Who know if it was him. And maybe Mr Dee Lake is the one who made the phone call, so that thickens the morass even more.

i am pleased however there is someone looking into the Amorino/Sloaterman potential connection.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:41 pm

Yes, I'm not the only one to suspect Pedrini is less than one himself. A suspect, that is.

Gamberg and I were raking over the bullshit surrounding the 'discovery' of Tina when I brought up the 'anon' phone call, which he'd never heard of. Within ten days, he'd found the tape. But we were initially trying to unfuck the bullshit about Tina's skull being 'found' by Pedrini, including the goddamned date. Then I saw the day Crim was choppered in to secure the search, and I knew it was a setup.

I've uncovered a ton on Pedrini, and published the info on his uncle: his NV murder execution made history, and the guy currently in charge of the NV parole board is Rod DeCrona's cousin. Small sick world. And why the F would Pedrini choose to move from the Bay area to settle in Quincy, yards from where Dee Lake lived before going on the run, if his only connection is bottle collecting?

And Dee Lake was not the only Keddie suspect AND Butte resident at the time of the 'anon' call: Marty was living nearby in Paradise, where Loon movd to when she abandoned Twain shortly after her disastrous run on this forum. This also must be around the time Marty was Town Cryer in the paper, 83-84.

Oh, and Dee Lake also lived at the same address as his 'chauffeur', Frank MIKE DAVIS. It's the address on Qcy Jtn Rd Mike moved to... according to PCSO before April 1, 1981 but according to Mike to Princess (which I heard firsthand), he said he took his last load from Cabin 13 on April 11. 1981, at dusk. That QJR address is yards from where Dana's foster home was, which is the same place DeCrona often visited because his wife (who he supposedly proposed to the night of the murders while eating steak dinners at the Keddie Lodge, with his dad, who gave DT the cushy DOJ job... Marty and Loon and Bo were right downstairs at the bar, conspiring, and Dee Lake was supposedly seen out back, talking to Marty during one of Marty's disappearances that night), and Sue's brother was at a nearby table, and it's quite possible DT's ex was there, too... oh, I could go on and on.

He didn't mention leaving the keys for the killers or their lookouts.

Yes, everywhere you turn, this case gets more fucked up and freaky than humanly conceivable. Yet many wonder why I sometimes lose grasp of direction, much less details, in the case!
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby azucena » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:44 pm

Do we have an "actual" date when Tina's remains were found? Was it on the anniversary of the murders, or is that just more hocus pocus? Apparently, there is a tape of the phone call. I suppose it is not time or date stamped. Is it still being reviewed for any voice recognition? Mr Pedrini the bottle hunter, seems to be something more, and there are weird Butte County connections with many POIs. As Camp 18 is in Butte County, the whole issue of Camp 18 continues to gnaw at me. Broken record, I know, but someone gave the killers the idea of Camp 18, and it surely was not the killers themselves, Bo, Marilyn or probably even Marty's idea. Which leads into murky waters for Mr Lake, and the person that "found " Tina. The greek also may figure into this.

In my mind, we have the people who committed the murders, and those that helped cover their tracks and dispose of evidence. I do not think BMM were collected enough or savvy enough to figure all this out for themselves. They had help. They react, and act, but did not think of the larger picture once they did what they did. They needed someone to pick up the pieces.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:38 am

Sorry I can't get too specific or spend too much time. I've got a mindblowing post to write up.

The point is we have VERY DETAILED reports on Pedrini's find. And none of the reports, or the ensuing reports re: searches, conclusions, etc., can agree on when she was found.

April 11 is the find date on several reports. But she was murdered on April 12.

There's a bunch on Pedrini, and his uncle, which I need to refamiliarize myself on. I didn't post it when I found it, but his reign of lies wasn't quite so obvious then.

I protect names and people until I feel the Qs are too serious to ignore.
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby azucena » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:13 pm

Bear with me, I'm not much good with timelines. But is it possible we have BMM in the cabin committing the murders, leaving, and beginning to freak out about what they have just done, trying to creat alibis and they decide to recruit someone or someones to deal with their mess, who helps with staging, figuring out what to do about Tina, etal, and at that point the word is out at least to a few, and this is where Philip gets his info, which he of course, proceeds to discuss for attention getting sake?
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby azucena » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:19 pm

My larger point being: What was MMB's state of mind at that point? I sense they were adreniline rushed, if not something else rushed, and then the reality of what they have just done begins to sink in. They realize they are in deep. Who would they call for help? I wonder if that someone is who gave them the idea of removing Tina staging, and who had an idea of where they could go with Tina.
I just do not believe they were sophisticated enough to do the staging and come up with the idea to remove Tina. As I said, they had help
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby narmrn » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:55 pm

In regards to the "hair like fragments"...of various colors, including white...I wonder..did the Sharp Family have pets that came inside. With all the blood it would seem possible that pet hair littering the floor could have adhered to anybody and anything that touched that floor.....
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Re: regarding DNA at the scene

Postby dmac » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:30 pm

Azu: I think Marty and Bo took Tina's body out of Keddie around 3 am. I also believe they left 28 sometime around 430am. That leaves them in 28 for 3 hours fifteen minutes. But M&B ate up at least half an hour going back to the bar, and taking Tina across the swinging bridge (and tossing the pink pantsuit into the Swimming Hole) half an hour with ease. So 2.25 hours for M&B. The full 3.25 for Loon and whoever else (if anyone) was on-scene.

I think most of the staging was Bo's idea, and thought so even before getting hold of Marty's Crimely interview, where he complains about how long they were in 28. The original posing of Sue, before she was rolled over and covered, may have been Marty's contribution. But the staging was anything but sophisticated. It was scatterbrained, chaotic, and schizophrenic.

Marty and Dee and Tony- any of them could have been familiar with the area of Camp Eighteen. All were hunters, 'outdoor sportsmen'. Or they were looking for somewhere to dump her where she wouldn't be easily found, and went looking for logging roads.

I don't know what all they were on, but there have been a few refs to Marty having a lot of speed. Hell, Tony evidently consumed most of the acid in California himself. But there was no sleep Saturday night, and very little on Sunday according to Nina's oft-recalled account. But Marty also apparently kept his Monday therapist session on Monday (no mention of the murders, apparently) and didn't sound particularly 'out of it' when interviewed on Tues.

We already know Dee provided help, and paid for it with his station wagon being converted to a paperweight by PCSO. Small price in exchange for a murder rap. We know Tony was involved to some level, enough for Mike Davis and Martel to tell the story of Avery Schreiber. We also now know PCSO were lying when they said Mike moved out prior to April 1. He moved out on the Saturday of the murders.

narmrn: The only pets I know they had were the hamsters, whose cage was in the living room.
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