WALK IN, TWIG

[dmac]

Any killer would have learned from the environment. Before punching the clock.

How was this done by anybody who did not know the scene? Valid answers?

NONE.

The Killers (multiple) knew the scene and planned ahead. Shit planning, but plans nonetheless.

How quickly did it come together? Was it originally nothing but a sex assault gone wrong? They brought RESTRAINTS which blows this into far more than INTENT. Grow a brain and think about what actually went down, not the shit in your brain from decades of deceit.

Think NOW.

WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED?

Someone tell me the Seabolt girls did not see a van parked in front of 28 when Tina wandered home. Wait, they were there so it wasn't wandering by legend. They watched Tina jump that fence.

Mr. Seabolt saw the van parked by the Krois home. Validation?

Tell me why this is not front and full in charge as a viable option. THE FUCKING VAN. When did the murders start? The boys lied about sleeping so do NOT trust when they NEVER fell asleep.

EXPLAIN THAT FUCKING van.

[leenie963]

At the risk of catchin' hell...which btw, I'm in to; any way at all you can explain what exactly the fuck you are talking about? You have access to things no one has which I'm actually thankful about because I trust you about damn near anything ya have to say about this horrid case. I did the G search and it came empty...as in my head.

Obi Wan-less Cannoli

ps: I'm about as dumb as a conch tonight...yesterday... uh...yep. Care to spare me (and lurkers) critical thinkin' and such?

[dmac]

I'm just saying that the killers KNEW THAT CABIN before they did the home invasion/murder. They twigged the layout of the cabin in the dark when they walked in. I also think the "dark van" seen in front of 28 by the Seabolt girls and by Jan Albin (when Tina went home at 9-ish) and by Mr Seabolt (parked further down the road, by the Krois home at the Flats turn-off) tells us a van that didn't belong in Keddie was present for hours the night of the murders.

Did the murders begin much earlier than commonly believed? Were the killers already in 28 when Tina came home? The boys have 35 years of lying about waking up that night under their belts, so lying about when the murders began is a slam-dunk: Whatever happened, only Justin has come anywhere close to telling the truth.

If the crimes began closer to 9 pm, and the van was part of it, it means others were clearly involved in the actual murders. It means the crimes began prior to MMB going to the bar. It means the van was parked in a better location to smuggle Tina's body out of Keddie. It also means Sheila's and LaRonda's being followed by a dark green van and their ducking into a pizza joint for safety just days after the murders has a more sinister meaning.

[Prodguy1]

I'm just thinking out loud here, Dmac, so don't be too hard on me. Lol. Is it possible the killers at least entered the home during "The Love Boat?" Could that possibly explain Justin's Intermingling of the show and what he saw? The van sighting around 9PM certainly coincides with the time it would have been on. Maybe instead of a dream, The Love Boat was background noise to the start of the real-life nightmare that happened in 28 that night??

[dmac]

The key thing that deflates any chances the killings didn't begin that early is both Sue and Tina were clearly in bed & asleep when the murders began. That doesn't mean the van wasn't involved, just that everyone upstairs was asleep when the killers entered.

[Prodguy1]

Right! And the muffled scream was heard at around 1:15 or thereabouts, so that also pretty much proves the home invasion happened at that time. So the presence of the green van at least a good four hours earlier, if involved, is puzzling to say the least. Could it be that the killers had originally planned to kidnap Sue and either rape her in the van or transport her someplace else to do so? That thought entered my mind, but I think it would have been deemed too risky. It also occurred to me that maybe they planned to transport Tina out of Keddie in the van, but I don't see that as likely either, because in order for that to be the case, it would have to mean that Tina was the target all along, which I've come to agree with you on...she wasn't! So the only thoughts that make sense to me are, it either served as a lookout, surveillance, or it wasn't involved at all and just happened to coincidentally wind up in Keddie for whatever reason at the worst possible time. However, I don't believe in coincidence, so that leaves lookout or surveillance. And the fact that a green van followed Sheila a few days later, if true, is enough to prove involvement. Somewhere on one of the timelines, it's mentioned that someone (forgive me, but I can't remember her name) heard voices coming from the general direction of 28 as she was leaving the bar that night, and the sound of someone loading something into a car...or maybe a van?? We know Dee Lake drove the green station wagon, but do we know what The Greek drove?

[dmac]

This is going to be a lengthy and messy post. There's a lot going on in my head as I look at all the factors the "green van" brings up, so bear with me. I've also been up with a massive toothache since three, Ive been writing this for over an hour, and I'm about to start slurping rum (as of 630 PT) in order to kill the pain and get some more kip.

Surveillance makes the most sense. There's zero chance the killers entered, left their victims peacefully asleep for hours, then attacked Sue at 1:15, triggering screams either by Sue or Tina- most likely Tina or BOTH. Blood was found throughout the bedroom, on both beds, on the floor, on the wall, indicating both females were immediately attacked... and silenced. <The bloody smudge on the edge of the door was probably from when a killer closed the door to prevent light from the bathroom leaking out the bedroom windows, alerting the outside world.>

There's conflicting info on who saw the vans. According to the PoN (Persons of Note) document:

Karl Spang told Terry Armanino @ two guys in van on road near Keddie night of 187's

Mr. X- In bar 4/11/81 @ 2200 - 2400, dark colored van by pond when he left

Alyssa Seabolt: Dana's girlfriend of @ one week, green van front Sharp's 4/11/81, discovered pink clothing in river

Paula Seabolt- Saw Sue with Josephson Sat., saw green van front Sharp's @ 2100, sister (Pearl) saw van too, saw green van front Sharp's 4/11/81

James Seabolt Sr- Went wood cutting 4/12/81 before crime discovered, heard nothing night before, see Vicky Rhodes, found #6451 on window sill where John used to sleep, saw wht/grn Blazer at Krois', daughter found clothing in river

Jan Albin- In bar 4/11/81, info on Pete P, saw Blazer at Sharp's

PoN is, clearly, a condensation of other reports and documents. As I've learned from reading reports, and in particular by compiling Timeline Z (in which I directly quote the source documents), most compilations or condensations and non-Z timelines are incredibly messed up. PCSO were usually incapable of getting the information straight in the original reports. When it came to condensing reports into timelines, they were complete fuckups. So many things missed, completely taken out of context, or the meaning of the source reports turned inside out and misconstrued. However, it is from those other PCSO Timelines that we know WHEN the Seabolts and Albin saw the vehicles

Without spending time finding the source document right now, I swear JAn or George Albin reportedly saw a VAN in front of 28, not the Blazer. I could be mistaken. For the PoN to mention the grn/wh blazer WITHOUT stating when the witnesses saw it is utterly (and I believe intentionally) catastrophic. Through years of finding LIE after CORRUPT PIG LIE in this case, I've come to wholly believe so many facts and witness statements were intentionally altered in order to undermine one direction of the case while confusing / bolstering another. To believe otherwise would to believe anything coming from the current Whore... er, I mean White House.

For instance, only TWO white/green blazers appear in the story thus far. One belonged to Vickie Krois' boyfriend, and the Krois are tied to the whole Walke/Thompson pantload. What's irrefutable is the Krois girls were partiers who hung out at the dorm with scumfucks, such as the aforementioned Walke/Thompson Dynamic Douchebag Duo. So, why would Vickie's BF's Blazer be parked at either the main Krois home OR at 28 when A> Vickie stated her BF was out of town at the time and B> Vickie didn't live at the main Krois home- she was living in 17 at the time, which is on the corner near the James home and to the north rear of the Back Door bar (looking out 28's back door, 17 is on the far left corner of the block. The main Krois home is at the far right, at the end of Debris Rd, but across the street katty-corner).

The other Blazer belonged to the fictional Avery Schreiber doppelganger, concocted by Frank Davis, Martell, and Tony the Freak in order to explain away Tony's being at 28. This is similar to how Tony tried to explain away potential sightings or evidence of him being at 28 by telling Princess he helped Sue and all the kids collect a load of firewood and dump it behind 28 the day of the murders. Of course, it's ALL LIES, as Sue's Avery/beater boyfriend is fictional, and Davis is also LYING about moving his last load from 13 on Sat night. Albin said Davis and Martell were out by April 1. Had he been moving out on the 11th, why didn't HE notice the Blazer parked in front of 28, then in front of the Krois compound? BECAUSE HE WASN'T THERE. IT'S ALL LIES.

Also, read again the statement above about Jan A and James S. seeing the Blazer at 28. Unlike the sightings of the GREEN VAN, there is ZERO INDICATION from the PoN WHEN they saw the Blazer. However, the timelines state:

810411c Carl Kautzer & Michelle Matosich move from Keddie. They were friends of Frank Davis & Martell Boyd who lived next to Sharp's (& also pushed drugs). Kautzer matched the light haired composite picture according to Doug Albin & he drove an old green phone company type van.

810411-1800c (1800-1830) James Jones sees a flat black truck or van park next to the propane tank West of his house. The vehicle is ’57-58, old paint, rounded shape, medium size half ton with no windows in back. The driver is 27-28, 6’ or taller, slender, with dirty blonde hair. (See van statements on 4-1 & 4-11 at 9pm & midnight) <James Jones / Stoy>

810411-1830c James Jones, Cabin 11, sees a WMA park a '55 vintage, flat black, dirty van type near the propane tank near his home & walk up the street toward the bar. The WMA was 6-2, slim, dirty long blonde hair & was shabbily dressed. (Also see Timothy Dembosz statement about a van at midnight & Paula Seabolt at 9:00pm.) <James Jones / Bradley>

810411-1830c (1830-1900) The driver of the van parked West of James Jones cabin, returns & leaves in the van. <James Jones / Stoy>

810411-2100b A green van is seen parked in front of the Sharp residence by Paula and Pearl Seabolt. Approximate time: 9:00 pm <Stoy>

810411-2100c Paula Seabolt sees a green van parked around the Sharp house about 9:00pm, after dark, but she did not see anyone around it? (Description could match Carl Kautzer's van?) <Paula Seabolt / Stoy>

810411-2200b Mr. X left the Backdoor Bar and saw a van, dark color, square-shaped, parked across the bridge by the pond on the right side. En route to Keddie he saw no one walking or hitchhiking. After leaving Keddie he saw only the van. Approximate time: 10:00 pm to midnight. <Crim>

810412-0000c Mr. X leaves the Back Door Bar and enroute, sees a dark color, square shaped van parked across the Keddie bridge by the pond. <Timothy Dembosz / Crim>

810412-0000c Carl Spang follows the two cars from Meadow Valley to Keddie. The blue LTD parks in front of the house just South of the Sharp residence. The small car went past Sharp's & turned left. Carl then drives his blue & primer '67 Chevrolet van across the bridge to the pond & waits for the vehicles to come out. He waits long enough to smoke a "joint" & then leaves & drives to the Pioneer Bar in Greenville. He also admits making up parts of a previous statement to Deputy Wright. <Carl Spang / Stoy>

Ignore the Spang horseshit. He was in Keddie and drove around, and I believe Mr X saw his van by the pond and bridge when he left Keddie after being at the bar. I believe Spang was, like Thompson and Walke, in Keddie that ninght, but their stories are such bullshit- all meant to cover the real, illegal reasons they were in Keddie at those times. DRUGS?! Not murder. Spang's van is NO MATCH anyway. NOR IS the van described by Jim Jones, but notice how PCSO tried to tie Matosich and his van to the FLAT BLACK van/truck JONES describes, rather than the GREEN VAN described as IN FRONT OF 28? See a pattern developing? It's also quite possible LE converted sightings of the green van into a grn/white Blazer, to both reinforce the Davis Doppelganger lie and reinforce suspicion towards Walke/Thompson via the Krois angle.

OKAY, back to surveil vs kidnap vs getting Tina out of Keddie, alive or dead. The green van is unexplained, but what little available evidence we've seen shows PCSO trying to tie the only known green van (MATOSICH'S) to the flat black truck Jim Jones saw leaving Keddie LONG BEFORE the murders. Again, all I see is PCSO intentionally and directly 180 degrees leading away from the truth. The fact is Matosiches and Davises and Dee Lake and Tony and the Smartts all knew each other, were all pals, and were all pushers. Matosich is listed as a SUSPECT, not just a POI but a SUSPECT, on other docs... so why weren't LE willing to connect Mato's van to Marty, Dee, and all the sightings of a GREEN VAN in front of 28 the night of the murders?

To have the van parked in front of, or anywhere NEAR, 28 that night is suspicious. There were never parking issues in Keddie that night, and the only place with any noticeable parking traffic was at the bar, and on the street next to the Jones home, which is directly on the street behind the parking lot outside the Back Door Bar's entry door. All traffic we've ever heard of is around the bar, other than the lone van at the pond (Karl's) and the lone GREEN VAN parked OUTSIDE 28. That is INSANE for PCSO to tie Mato's GREEN VAN to a BLACK TRUCK or VAN, rather than the one parked outside of 28, where Matosich's Keddie pals slaughtered a family that night.

Surveilling 28 makes sense, and shows something more nefarious than a sex crime was in play. Besides, anyone in the van would have noticed all the traffic in and out, known there was a sleepover, and known they were seen by so many people. Of course, there's already ample evidence these killers were as dumb as rocks, so that's par for the course. But the abduction/rape makes no sense- either for Sue or for Tina. They had Tina virtually alone when she left the Seabolts and went home- why not just grab her then? Like they could have grabbed her ALONE the entire first 7-9 hours of Saturday?

Everything Dee has told us about his car being at 26 is LIES, other than WE KNOW IT WAS AT 26 ON SUNDAY MORNING. Otherwise, we have his conflicting stories intermingling with the equally conflicting stories of the "car loan" from Marty, Bo, Loon. Dee is so entwined in the Loonibi as to be a co-conspirator. He's utterly inextricable from the Loonibi. Do we have ANY outside source stating they saw Dee's Lil Green Wagon at 26 prior to the 12th? Any sightings of M, M, or B at the wheel in the week leading up to the murders? NOPE! The LooniLiars all say Dee loaned the car about a full week beforehand, yet no outside verification? May I have a "BULLSHIT" from the choir?!

There's no excuse for that van to be at 28 at any time, much less 9 pm on the Sat night of the murders. No reason for ANYONE to park there, unless they were visiting or WATCHING 28.

We have a corrupt member of PCSO clearly stating TWICE Dee's green wagon was impounded and turned into a paperweight by PCSO. This info was offered up the first time without provocation, and confirmed the second time via a well-deployed series of Qs. Dee's car was only a couple years old- maybe a 78 at the earliest. He was in no known trouble with the law, PCSO had nothing in paper on him, yet we have a PCSO scum saying Dee let his car be towed away and crushed. There musta been a lot of evidence pertaining to Tina in that wagon for Dee to wash his hands of it shortly after the 184s, huh?

When I say everything Dee says about that car is a lie, I mean EVERYTHING. He can't recall the make or model anymore, cannot recall what happened to it, has lied about what happened to it. He lied about the car in 81, lied about it on camera when Josh interviewed him, lied to us multiple times before cutting off all contact and MOVING TO OREGON, and has consistently lied to LE.

As for the person hearing voices and car trunk/door noises, it was the bartender/waitress- who Martell said in the doc is her aunt. She would have left the bar around 2:15-3:00, depending on when they closed and her duties for the bar's closing procedures. Admittedly, this is PRECISELY the window I believe Tina was taken from 28 and stashed across the river.

DMV records don't go back far enough to know what other vehicles Dee may have had, or what any other killer/suspect/POI had. Via Matosich, we can conclude the killers at least had access to ONE green van, if not a compatriot.

I can't run down many of these roads without some sleep. Even then, I may see nothing I'm not seeing now. Right now, I see a lack of info to draw any conclusions- just avenues of opportunity for research, debate. Exploration. Debate is of no value with only supposition as support. We need more facts, as usual.

Still, explain away the wealth of info about the bridge. Marty was bringing up, and shooting down, his every idea as to how to get Tina out of Keddie. The only one I know he lied on was the bridge being locked. Plus hauling Tina out simplifies things (Occam's Razor) and ties into the pause between killing and staging that makes postmortem physiological deterioration match the scene. If Tina was take out via a vehicle, they still had to return the following day... PRESUMABLY without her body... then leaving Keddie the following day to retrieve her body. No green van seen in aerial photos, just the Gruebert car... AND DEE's WAGON. As Marty said, taking her out by car would be stupid and alert others. But the reports of voices and car-thud noises are VALID, and somewhat as valid about coming from the same area as the screams an hour earlier. I believe those in 16 had a far better grasp of what they heard and where the screams came from, as their bedroom window was in direct line with the Girls' room. The parking lot is twice the distance away, and is blocked by several buildings- at least the row of cabins (including 16) and perhaps the lodge itself, depending on where she parked. If, as is typical, staff were told to park furthest from the entry, that would put her closer to 16 and within better earshot.

Marty also told his therapist during the confession, "we're out in the middle of nowhere. Nobody can hear anything." While true, the screams WERE heard, and Marty and Bo were scared by it and did run home and change their bloody clothes so they could be seen back at the bar, reinforcing the Loonibi in their feeble attempt to re-establish their alibi...

I'm open to ideas, as this thread again shows. My theory ain't perfect, but the bridge wasn't locked, Sue's pantsuit was intentionally placed in that water by the bridge (a killer went there and did that), and it makes more sense to slink out the back way, silently, with a body.

I know, this post is a bunch of loose-ended scribbling, but I've laid out several possibilities, and even shot a few of them down. It's 745 and I'm going to have a couple shots of rum and hopefully fall asleep to some Chuck Jones WB cartoons. I hope to wake up without a toothache, and with some good replies as to info I've missed, avenues I haven't thought of, and some blanks others can fill in.

[nekogirrl]

When did the murders start? The boys lied about sleeping so do NOT trust when they NEVER fell asleep.

i'm not sure where to post this, or if it even matters...but i was reading over what mrs meeks said, because like you, dmac, i think she knows more than she says...despite 35 years and aging memory....i was thinking about justin and the other boys...and why nobody has said anything...if they were scared bad enough, and Lord knows, with parents like marilyn and marty, justin would have been scared enough....they could have blocked it out...especially greg. and having been one, i know kids talk to each other. that sort of thing would have made a strong bond, even if a temporary one between the boys...justin would have probably talked to the other 2 (and maybe casey)..."hey, we can't tell anybody, my mom and dad said if we did, ____ would happen to us"...and since PSCO made it obvious to the boys that they didn't want to hear the truth...who they gonna tell? anyway...when scrolling (or trolling) through what mrs meeks said...i found this...

Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:14 pm Post subject: polygraph testing
Don't follow your line of thinking. I don't think the police were involved in the murders. If doug was involved with marty, and this is here say, maybe he was afraid that it would be brought out if he pushed for marty to be one of the preps. i think it was a cover up from the very beginning. I think things came down just like marilyn said. I know my part of it was true. Also think there is some one here in quincy that was in on it. and still alive.

getting to justin...don't know if he took a polygraph test . but he was supposed to have been hypnotized. And by who no other than doug thomes. He had only been to two classes on hypnotism. I do know justin DID tell them that his father had done the killings. And he told someone else that, other than doug thomes. I have seen it in writing. When the FBI was at my house, he was one scared kid. He stood there and wet his pants.

I have met justin wife/girlfriend. She was the one that told me that justin was forced to help in the killings. threaten that if he didn't help he would be killed and his mother and brother also.

I two don't understand why he didn't go to the police when he remember what happened. Maybe he thougt that he would be blamed for what he had done.

...that one sentence tells me that justin had been terrorized...that is not a normal reaction in a child, at all...hope your tooth is better soon and you feel like smacking me around the block, verbally...

[dmac]

Neko, keep in mind you're throwing the baby out and holding the bathwater.

"Peed his pants" is, I believe, an embellishment. Look at the broader implications of those few stuttered sentences:

► When did the FBI visit Meeks? Doesn't she mean DOJ?! CRIMELY?!

►Doug had dealt with Justin several times before.

Ignore Mama's claptrap ideas about Justin peeing his pants and focus on what's overlooked. I knew the 'PEED HIS PANTS' quote for ages, from legend, but I don't recall ever reading any of the rest of what you quoted... even though I'm probably the one that posted it in the forum archive (I'm assuming that's where you found it?) I simply do not recognize those statements as anything I've read before, so please post a link to where you found them.

► If Mama "doesn't know if [PCSO] were involved, she sure as FUCK recognizes it was MARTY and DT, with DT PROTECTING MARTY'S ASS.

► DT KNEW MARTY WAS A KILLER, SO SCREWED THE INVESTIGATION TO PROTECT HIS OWN ASS.

► DT and CA-DOJ fucked this case to save their own asses. For how many years have I screamed that as the main conclusion?

► Mama then does a 180 and says she thinks it was "a coverup from the beginning". She just mapped out the only logical coverup theory, then completely contradicts it in her next sentence... without offering a thesis explaining the TRUE coverup?! How does "things came down just like Marilyn said" EVER come close to explaining a multi-LE coverup of a quad 184?

► "I know my part of it was true". Which bits? That the killers and kids stayed at her house? They all went to the funerals for the victims of Marty and Loon? That Marty stamped around her living room? That she's given 1500 variations on the same theme, all based on explaining away inconsistencies in her own frothy bowl of BS broth?

► She also mentions Justin's forced participation, his changing stories, yada yada.

► "There is someone here in Q still alive..." (Oh, Mama, you were pissed at Dee Lake then... and almost ready to spill the beans on that queen bitch!)

I wish I'd read this. I hope you can link to where you found it. When I put together the PAST Keddie-Related Forums RESTORED wing of this forum, it was a very fast-paced workflow. I was bombarded with info and leads at the time. Along came this brief window of opportunity, via archive.org's Wayback Machine, to grab whatever threads and posts existed from the original cabin28.com forum. I stripped everything I could, recoded it, and posted it here. It took about 150 hours.

I'd already left Jesse's site (he owned/ran cabin28.com, and I determined he was having fun fucking with people, so I bailed) by 2006, long before most of the posts I recovered were ever written, and I have yet to read through it all. It wouldn't surprise me if Mama was active on cabin28's forum long after I bailed. It wouldn't surprise me if she said so much in two brief paragraphs. It wouldn't surprise me one bit that I hold her, and that forum, in such low esteem that I fucking don't care I overlooked it for years.

That forum consisted of a few sheep, a thousand wolves posing as sheep, and another 300 crying "wolf" when they ARE the wolves. It was a horrible place, a bloodbath. Jesse was cumming in his jeans, it's exactly what he wet-dreamed of.

[nekogirrl]

i have trouble finding things on the forum...i know i was wading through the 'what mrs meeks said' part. i dont really think it was the FBi, but i can see where if the kid had been scared silent by his 'loving' parents...then brushed off by LE, who were supposed to be the good guys, having them show up at the meeks might cause an 'oh crap' moment...it just says to me that he knew/knows something and was scared shitless...

i keep going back to mrs meeks, because i really believe she knows exactly what went on in #28 that night...and who was there...and why it happened. i have never believed her "sue was my bff and her kids were like my own" crap...call me a bitch, but if i were as clueless as she claimed, my bff and two of her kids were killed like that...sure as hell, the survivors would be staying at my house if i had to stack kids like cord wood....

and while i might have taken in marilyn and her 2 kids, too...the minute i figured out or suspected marty had had a hand in it...he would never step foot in my house again, and if marilyn gave me crap... or i caught her playing slap and tickle with my teenage son....she'd bounce out the door too...

holy scones, a 30 something woman is having sex with your teenage son, and all you can say is "oh, well, what can you do?" its just a damn shame that none of her kids stayed over that night. because i would bet my 2nd best pair of earrings (10k with 6 diamond chips you can see if you hold the magnifying glass just so) that if a meeks kid was there that night, it wouldnt have happened...at least not that night....

[dmac]

NEKO I hope you don't mind. I edited your last post.

All I did was create paragraphs. I deleted nothing. I only added [paragraph] breaks.

Neko, you don't want me answering Qs at this moment. I'm incredibly angry and am in intense pain. Not a great combo for a reaction from dmac. Not your fault. But I find time to break your block into cohesive paragraphs- they were there all along.

Methinks you are a plant.

[nekogirrl]

oh, dmac, go to the dentist...tooth pain is the worst...and if you get an abscess, it will get even worse....you can scream all you want at me later....

[dmac]

No insurance, no money, no chance.

[nekogirrl]

dont know where you live, but go to an hca ER....you get an uninsured discount...and if your credit sucks, just ignore them for 18 months from the dos, and they will write it off....

[justice17]

Why did MMB need Justin to stay the night at The Sharp's anyway? The doors were always left unlocked. Justin wasn't neeeded to get to their main target. He is just another mouth that they needed to make sure stayed shut. Dee Lake did say that both of Marilyn's sons were staying the night at The Sharp Residence the night of the murders. I'm Just wondering if after the shit hit the fan, Marilyn decided to get her Fav. Casey out of there, but Justin had to stay?



I hope your tooth is better? I've had several abscessesed teeth because I avoided the Dentist -Once infected, The pain is no joke.

[dmac]

History tells us Loon and Marty didn't give a damn about Justin. He was passed around like a case of the clap: an unwanted consequence of unprotected sex. I believe there was planning involved in the murders, def premed. Malice aforethought. I also believe the killers had ample time to know Justin was staying at 28, but did they know? I don't buy into Dee's claim that Casey was also there, it's just too much of an 'aside' than a statement by him for me to believe without corroboration. I've spec'd that Casey may have been at the 28 sleepover, but it's too complex and dulls Occam's Razor:

The only lie we know the boys have had to keep is that they never woke up that night. No, they didn't see Tina scream and run. No, they didn't hear the thuds of the knife hitting the wall. No, Justin didn't see Marty or Bo or Loon. No, he didn't hold a rag to Sue's chest. No, he didn't sleep on the Love Boat. No, they didn't crouch in the closet, squeezing between the chest of drawers and the wall. It's been a single bad lie they've proven to be a lie, but at least it's been a simple lie: THEY NEVER WOKE UP TIL MORNING.

It would be far more difficult to lie about Casey also staying the night, or others being in the house when the green van was mysteriously parked out front. All those lies complicate the simple lie they've more or less maintained for 35+ years. The Loonibi fails due to it's insanely grandiose complexity, its incredible stupidity, and at least four moronic fuckup killers couldn't toe that common lie. If the boys' common excuse/lie of 'sleeping all through the murders' is a failure- which it is- imagine how impossible it would have been to keep other elements (Casey sleeping over, a home invasion at 9) a secret. The best explanation of why the boys aren't screwing up their lie by adding these elements is twofold: They've probably never been asked, and it simply didn't happen: No Casey. No invasion from the green van.

After all, Greg was MIA until Tina was tapped to scout Keddie for him Sat night. She found him doors away at a cabin opposite the Back Door. He wasn't playing with Casey OR the older boys. Rick and Justin were ditching Casey in the afternoon, and there's zero indication Casey ever rejoined the older boys. So when would Casey magically come back into the picture, as well as suddenly be part of a sleepover that seemed to come organically from Justin and Rick spending most of the day together?

I know at least one of the boys was forced to participate in the murders. That's simply not spec but cold fact. My guess is both older boys (J and R) were forced to participate, at least during the postmortem staging efforts. This was not only to silence the boys by "getting them dirty", but because at least one of the killers was having fun. Loon and Marty both have a history of tormenting their kids, particularly Justin, and they both show huge red flags indicating sociopathy.

Short answer: MMB didn't NEED Justin to stay the night. They simply either didn't know he was there, or knew but didn't give a shit about what they put him through. They may even have thought of using him as a ruse to enter the cabin ("we just need to see him for a sec"), but all were asleep when they entered the unlocked home, so they slunk straight for Sue, in her bed.

PS Tooth was getting better, but it's coming back. Herbal Tea to the rescue!

[meankitty]

i have trouble finding things on the forum...i know i was wading through the 'what mrs meeks said' part. i dont really think it was the FBi, but i can see where if the kid had been scared silent by his 'loving' parents...then brushed off by LE, who were supposed to be the good guys, having them show up at the meeks might cause an 'oh crap' moment...it just says to me that he knew/knows something and was scared shitless...

i keep going back to mrs meeks, because i really believe she knows exactly what went on in #28 that night...and who was there...and why it happened. i have never believed her "sue was my bff and her kids were like my own" crap...call me a bitch, but if i were as clueless as she claimed, my bff and two of her kids were killed like that...sure as hell, the survivors would be staying at my house if i had to stack kids like cord wood....

and while i might have taken in marilyn and her 2 kids, too...the minute i figured out or suspected marty had had a hand in it...he would never step foot in my house again, and if marilyn gave me crap... or i caught her playing slap and tickle with my teenage son....she'd bounce out the door too...

holy scones, a 30 something woman is having sex with your teenage son, and all you can say is "oh, well, what can you do?" its just a damn shame that none of her kids stayed over that night. because i would bet my 2nd best pair of earrings (10k with 6 diamond chips you can see if you hold the magnifying glass just so) that if a meeks kid was there that night, it wouldnt have happened...at least not that night....

Nekogirrl, She was friends with Sue, she is not lying about that. It is possible for Sue to make a friend after she moved to Quincy.

The surviving kids could have stayed with her, but they did have an uncle living in Quincy so they stayed with him. Mrs. Meeks was in shock and grief when Marty was at her house, and she was probably afraid to say something to someone acting that agitated and high on something, "tweaking".

Also, Wade Meeks was 19 at the time, too old to "ground", and I know from experience how hard it is to talk sense into anyone who fell head over heels with the wrong person.

As for your last sentence, are you implying that if a Meeks kid was there at cabin 28, the murders wouldn't have happened?

[justice17]

Hello MK:

A couple of questions:

Didn't two of The Meeks 'boys' supposedly pre-warn their Mom to reply 'NO',when Johnny asked if they could stay the night at Cabin 28? Excuse was that Dana might have had a beer or two,and was a diabetic? If true...Holy crap,they saved themselves. Pretty darn lucky!

How many of the Meeks Family members were in Keddie in the 24 hours before and after the murders? I'm not implying anything. Just want to be sure.
1. LaRonda
2. Wade
3. Nina
4. Jim the ex
5. Richard
Anyone else?!

[dmac]

1. LaRonda- probably true (Sat night)
2. Wade- absolutely, multiple times Sunday onward, not known Sat
3. Nina- absolutely, multiple times Sunday onward, not known Sat
4. Jim the ex- I doubt like hell those stories are true
5. Richard- unknown
Anyone else?!
6. Philip is listed coming after the murders with Wade & Blaine. LE accounts alone are contradictory

1> I've leaned heavily towards Nina's earliest accounts of Sunday morning being truest, but when I recently tore it apart ("earlier rather than later"), Shaver's report almost immediately bit my ass off re: when the earliest the Meeks could have picked up Loon, Casey, Justin. For LaRonda to stay at the Krois house Sat night speaks to a schism that must have existed between her and 28 as, certainly, Sheila would have invited her to stay over when all her attempts to get a sleepover together went up in flames- resulting in Sheila staying at 27, Tina and Justin at 28. I've also found info suggesting Sheila and LaRonda may have lived together years later, out by the animal shelter in EQ. Late 80s, after Sheila would have been "of age" to move away from the steps in Oregon.

4> Just way too much garbage in the accounts- all of it incriminating Marty but never Loon or Bo. Were it scripted, it couldn't be more illogical and incriminating. Marty and Meeks have phones but, after Marty failed to show up in EQ, Jim DROVE rather than phoned? Bull Shit. Saw cops everywhere but had little reason to question why Marty was burning shoes in the yard? A fire nobody else noticed, saw, smelled? Naw, the Jim stuff is simply far too hinky. And this LONG BEFORE Nina's own accounts of what happened Sunday morning?

5> Richard was known to be with John on Friday night. He told me Johnny was gone when he woke up in the AM, was not at the breakfast table, but they ran into each other multiple times as per reports. The store, the Arcade, the Brown trailer park. Yet his accounts vary wildly with Sheila's and, for that matter, Justin's- the latter two both had J&D in Keddie around 1230, even doing yard work, changing clothes to head back to Keddie.

I've never seen good reports taken from the Meeks early on- other than when they debriefed Wade but not Marty after Marty threatened him in the Drunk Tank.

Without repeating too much more, there's just too many contrary accounts- and some, quite frankly, shamelessly false- for me to be confidant in many statements sans outside confirmation.

[meankitty]

Hello MK:

A couple of questions:

Didn't two of The Meeks 'boys' supposedly pre-warn their Mom to reply 'NO',when Johnny asked if they could stay the night at Cabin 28? Excuse was that Dana might have had a beer or two,and was a diabetic? If true...Holy crap,they saved themselves. Pretty darn lucky!

How many of the Meeks Family members were in Keddie in the 24 hours before and after the murders? I'm not implying anything. Just want to be sure.
1. LaRonda
2. Wade
3. Nina
4. Jim the ex
5. Richard
Anyone else?!

Hi, sorry I missed this. I did hear of the Meeks boys doing that, but I don't know how accurate that was. It looks like Dmac answered your list, but #5 could be likely in the week after the murders if LE took him on a tour of the cabin.