Zonita Seabolt

[meankitty]

I disagree. And, despite whatever impact you believe Zonita's religion may have had on her outlook or compassion or whatever, remember she's not a Utah Mormon. Those zealot assfucks are generally nazi assholes compared to 'outsider' Mormons, which is why Utah Mormons have a derogatory name for them: 'Gentiles'.

I find the Mormon religion and especially Utah Mormons to be devoid of human kindness and spiritually bankrupt. While you may find some compassion in Mormons outside of Utah, somehow I don't think you'll find much of that in Utah.

[Salem]

One thing about the 'sexual encounter'. My direct sources say it was Sue fucking. Indirect sources have changed it to be Tina, but that's always coming from people who also imagine Sue's murder was all about Tina.

Some people think I've got blinders on about Tina, but everything I see about those who think the case was about Tina have a hard-on for their hypothesis, and the ignore facts to be certain Tina was kidnapped, raped for years, and discarded. Who's sicker? MMB or the useless pukes who absolutely WANT this to be about child rape?

Even I can handle that answer: MMB.

I'm not sure where you are going with this, but why can't it be about both? Sue the target, Tina an opportunity? Obviously something happened with Tina.

And I agree 100% about Marilyn. She should have given the truth years ago.

[budrfligh]

That Tina being missing led to an easier escape route because everyone was looking for her, some even blaming her as complicit in the murders to run away with someone. It took focus off of the personal subject of the killers rage at Sue. The only victim who had overkill was Sue. The others were savaged after they weredeceased to MASK the overkill. Tina so far is a fantastic red herring as it still works today despite evidence to the contrary.
I do not like to think about it, but of course she could have been sexually assaulted b4 death, or even after death repeatedly by a necrophile. We have NO evidence of such horrendous goings on. But I am convinced Tina was supposed to be at her usual Saturday night sleepover safe n sound at the Seabolt's cabin.
Fact- overkill is personal and comes from an enormous rage at the victim. I have seen evidence of that only with Sue. I prefer my mental bubble that Tina died first and quickly. The blood evidence seems to support this.

[dmac]

Another point is that the killers really didn't care about who was in the house:

- they killed anyone they had to fight with or felt they couldn't control
- Sue and Tina were attacked almost immediately after the killers entered; J&D were likely already home and were dealt with and dispatched upon coming upstairs.
- of the three vx found on-scene, Sue clearly died last, after J&D were extensively staged.
- the killers were there from roughly 1:15 am to roughly 4 - 4:30

If they were intent on sex with Sue, they would have done it. Why have all that sexual rage but not rape Sue? Well, HELL, because MARILYN WAS A KEY PARTICIPANT. As for pedophiles, statistically, the boys were at just as much risk as the girls: Pedophiles usually have a strong preference for one sex, not the other.

The killers killed everyone LE knew they interacted with: J&D (because they came upstairs and tried to defend); and Sue and Tina (who the killers attacked in the bedroom, and at least one of them screamed). The killers could NOT kill Justin, but they forced him to participate to secure his silence. Because they could not kill Justin, everyone in the Boys room had to survive.

The killers took tried to equalize the damage to the 3 vx by doing postmortem damage & staging to J&D. They dumped Tina dozens of miles away in a remote, wooded area to throw off the investigation.

For 30 years, PCSO backed the bullshit stories about the boys sleeping all through it; about Tina being the target; even about Tina being a participant... AND ABOUT NOT HAVING A CLUE WHO DID IT.

[budrfligh]

Personal rage doesn't mean sexual. The only sexual thing here is Sue's initial posing. That Bo tries to declare impotence indicates, to me, that was staging too. They were pissed at Sue , they went after Sue, they fucked her up and anybody who got in the way was collateral damage. Period. That is what I see and mean by personal.

[Sheepish]

Also I wonder about the last sexual encounter Mrs Seabolt heard. That would have potentially left behind evidence even though it wasn't rape. Yet no mention of this? Hmmmmm

I wonder about the implications: She heard the sex, but not the multiple murders/staging/people hauling bodies? No one has described Sue as an exhibitionist, so let's assume she wasn't trying to alert the entire resort to what was going on and the relations were not abnormally noisy. I still can't fathom how afternoon delight could be louder than a bloodbath in regards to what the neighbors heard. Mrs. Seabolt at least had a house full of kids making noise to perhaps explain why she didnt hear much, but what about the other nearby cabin residents? If J&D ran upstairs after hearing the attack start that means the neighbors should have heard it too.

It could really be that everyone was sound asleep/on drugs/in a self absorbed stupor so that the lone dog barking in the night really was the only thing anyone heard, but seems strange with the proximity. If someone did hear something then why didnt it make its way into the police files? Did the residents not want to draw LE attention to themselves for whatever reason, or did LE suggest to them that they heard nothing?

[justice17]

TINA could have been sexually active when she was left alone that Saturday morning/early afternoon. As terrible as it sounds, maybe it was willingly with Marde? Speculating Sue was made aware of the situation later, and maybe Marilyn also caught wind of it? Zonita might have seen a little more than she was willing to admit on camera. Is that the real reason why Tina didn't stay at The Seabolts that Saturday night as usual?

They say there is always a little truth in every lie and Marilyn does say in an aggressive tone that she was told by Marde-YOU GO AND ASK HER" (what was the true question? We know it was not about going out with them that night). Later Marde was heard at the bar saying that it better get figured out or else heads were gonna roll.

Keeping in mind Tina's background, It would be easy for Marde to target Her. Her Father did. So did Teacher Joel L.
Tina was also victimized at the trailer park just prior to moving to Keddie.

It is true that child abuse in females also prematurely starts puberty early; similarly so does the lack of a strong father figure in a female childs life and early puberty massively increases a teenage girls chance of harmful negative experiences.
It is an incredibly sad fact that women who are emotionally or physically abused as children grow up to lack a properly developed self-confidence and are most likely to be raped as a teenager or adult; it is also tragic that many women who are raped once are actually raped again.

[budrfligh]

People heard things. These cabins were right on top of another. I don't know how the sound travels. However people are always shocked more wasn't heard. There was not much screaming from the first victim after her initial scream as she was incarcerated. Sue was gagged multiple times and layers so she would be unable to scream, especially after they bashed in her mouth. Nobody's sure when the boys arrived home that night but I think that Dana was struck in the head and strangled quickly and since there were multiple killers Johnny was most likely quickly controlled as well. Marty stated there was commotion, I think that would be thudding noises, shuffling people into position etc. I don't think there was very much screaming that wasn't very muffled at all. The lights on and off, the first and only muffled yell was heard but then it was quiet again so they went back to bed..... the lack of noise is misleading. People heard stuff and thought nothing much of it.

[dmac]

I believe the current understanding of facts and events leads most to make one conclusion about J&D: They were, indeed, already home and chilling in Johnny's downstairs room. All he had was a small space heater, which explains why they were still dressed in outdoor clothing. Hell, who hasn't heard "take your coat off and stay awhile" a million times during their youth?

J&D heard the screams, ran upstairs, and things went sideways. Within fifteen minutes or so, the initial attacks were over, and B&D were rushing to the Back Door.

[budrfligh]

Thanks for the clarification. As I read older stuff mixed up with newer stuff I'm unsure sometimes what our eventual conclusion is. It makes perfect sense to me that they would hear a scuffle from upstairs and rush to investigate.

[dmac]

While shuffling through files the other day, I found the following transcript. It's purportedly from the VHS version of Part 1 of Josh's shlockumentaries. It's an outtake of Zonita talking about Sunday morning. I believe this is meankitty's transcription:

Sheila sat on the couch and, uh, I think Alyssa slept on the floor there in the living room and then the next morning we got up, well and something I should, might mention to you is that during the night our dogs started barking, he got behind the couch where Sheila was and our dog was barking, and our dogs never barked at night, and that was the only thing strange during the night that we noticed.

But the next morning we had gotten up to go to church, we'd had breakfast and everything, and Sheila decided she would take her clothes home and she went home to the, and uh, she was back in just a few minutes and she was just screaming and crying hysterically. She says "My God, there's three dead people in my house. Uh, and she didn't know who they were. I said "Are the boys alright?" And she couldn't see the boys, she just saw the three bodies and uh, uh, I had my son jump up in the window because I figured if she didn't recognize them, I didn't know what, you know, what had happened. Anyhow, I had my son Jamie jump up in the window and he crawled through the window and he passed Justin and Rick and Greg out the window to us and we took them into our house. And then he went to the back bedroom window, which had been Sue's window and he jumped up there and there was nobody there.

And then we just waited 'til the police came and I'm sure that everybody and every sheriff and highway patrolman in Plumas county showed up and went in that house. And they put us one by one in the police cars and the sheriff said to me, "Well?" And I said, "Well, what?" And he says, "What do you know?" And I felt so sorry for him because you know Plumas, Quincy had never had a thing like that and so they didn't have any idea even what questions to ask and so all day long they thought that it was Greg and Sue and Tina in there and they were looking for Dana because they thought Dana committed the murders. And then later in the afternoon they came back and said no, that Tina was missing and that it was Greg in there.

[azucena]

What do you know?!
What kind of question is that?

[leenie963]

Not only what kind of question is that but why the hell is she expressing sorrow for the freakin' sheriff and not the victims? Whacked.

[budrfligh]

How did she not know it wasn't Greg murdered when her son pulled him out of the window and she took them to her house?

[azucena]

When these murders happened, the community was totally shocked. There was talk for years that some of the deputies first responding were so horrified by what they saw and not having experience, actaully messed up evidence, resulting in DOJ being brought in, which we know now was likely for much more nerfarious reasons.
That being said, many people were sympathetic towards LE for having to deal with such brutality. This is likely where Zonita was coming from. This is a small town and people knew the deputies as community members,and in Zonita's defense, she was likely in shock.

Likely things were so confused at that moment no one was sure what was happening, and shock, as I mentioned, hence the Greg confusion.

I find the Sheriff's questioning much more troubling, it feels as though he was fishing to see how much Zonita knew not so much about the murders, but the players and what they were up to to see how easy it was going to be for him to contaminate and manipulate how he was going to direct the situation. I don't find his approach showing any caring or compassion for Zonita being next door to quadruple homicides. It seems self protective to me trying to determine what she might have known about the activities of people, including LE, to judge how worried he needed to be. Just my gut reaction to the exchange..

[Mikey71]

Zonitas nervous laughter to me just suggests she was nervous and uncomfortable but completely honest and her blushing to me was she was uncomfortable and maybe even ashamed talking about it. I could be wrong I am alot but she seems to be one of the most genuine people I've come across on this case. I think her saying Greg was just mistake due to confussion and shock etc. When I read she had heard someone having sex I wondered 1) who was it? 2) sex or rape? 3)but murders went unheard yet sexual encounter is heard? I need to go back and see when that was exactly because I believe zonita to be an honest person.

[budrfligh]

I agree it must be a nervous fumble of names. I sure wish we could talk to her in a non nerve wracking way. A video camera and being interogated is not exactly relaxing. I think she might have had more to offer if say Princess spoke with her. Bless her heart.

[dmac]

We've been over most of this stuff a zillion times, her nervous laughter, her being a Mormon, her admitting to being judgmental. I think it's important to point out most of us were years ago, and I was #1 in line for tearing Zonita apart. Hell, read the remarks on my YT channel- what most often gets comments is the stupid psychics, the shit music, and HOW BIGOTED THAT RUDE BITCH IS (50/50 whether its Zonita of Metcalf as their target). Most people commenting on YT are just as clogged by preconceptions as I was. Sue was not a great mom, Keddie wasn't a squeaky clean All American Resort Town overflowing with bouncy, happy white people. It was a shithole overflowing with single moms who preferred to party over raising their kids- wherever they were. Even by those standards, Sue was seen by most as the outcast who was a particularly incompetent, disinterested mother.

I'd bet if we had access to all the footage of Zonita... well, if we knew what she really thought of Sue, with examples she saw, we'd have figured this case out a few years ago. And Sheila would have abandoned us long before she had to pick a fight with me to have as an excuse to mock us while calling our work hers.

I'm glad she says Jamie went in the boys room through the window and passed them out. Jamie himself told Shaver, after checking both windows, he went in through the ajar back door and searched all the upstairs- something he hasn't, to my knowledge, repeated publicly.

The way she describes traffic in and out of 28 is a kind way of saying the crime scene was a free-for-all. Her description of how DT went about the interviews somewhat mirrors Loon's version, too. I also agree her memory of DTs words is much closer to a damage control fishing expedition than a homicide investigation.

What's odd to me about the 'felt sorry for [DT]' remark is it means, 25-odd years on, when the interview was done, she had to feel PCSO didn't intentionally muff the case to be able to say that. I find that difficult to swallow. She and her husband are the ones who confirmed Doug lived in 28 just prior to the Sharps. She must have seen his pal, Marty, and equally iffy scumbags, coming and going from 28 during Dougie's days as a Keddieite. Was her respect for the office of Sheriff so falsely high that she ignored signs that, had they occurred when Sue lived there, she would have damned others for the same things? Sure, Doug was sheriff. He had no kids. On the surface, that's two huge reasons for Zonita not to pay attention to Doug as she clearly did Sue. But I'd expect her to at least notice- and question- why Marty was living there for a couple weeks.

Her insistence they mistook Greg for someone seems to be a simple mistake. I think she intended to say Johnny and Sue and Tina. Not only is this largest victim to smallest, there's no way LE didn't realize Greg was alive. Shaver mentioned he was there but he didn't interview him due to his young age. Sans her confusion of Greg for Johnny, her description otherwise matches Don's description, and Dan's. LE were clearly confused as to whether Dana was one of the living room dead. They had Don ID Sue twice. The PoN also says of Pat, Dan Dorris' wife, "ID on Dana", which indicates she may also have IDd Dana's body. From my notes on the convo Princess and I had with Mr Dorris shortly prior to his death:

"PCSO came to the Dorrises' house Easter morning to inform them of Dana's death, and asked to come to the funeral home to identify Dana. The cops never discussed anything with him after that, although they may have with his wife. Police collected all of Dana's belongings, and the Dorrises never received any personal belongings back."

It's quite possible both Dan, then later Pat, had to ID Dana. I can think of no other reason the PoN would state Pat IDd Dana. And it makes absolute sense. Don had to ID Sue twice, the Dorrises had to ID Dana twice. They thought it was Johnny, Sue, Tina, with Dana as perp. Makes one wonder if Marty, Bo, or Loon made overtures to DT about their first pet posing of the crime scene before deeming Dana too heavy to get over the swinging bridge safely.

However you cut this, it once again confirms that the very first document I deemed as falsified was Don Stoy's CS report, where he altered it to make it seem PCSO knew immediately Tina was missing, not later near dusk as the accounts of others indicate.

As for the damage the case has done to psyches, count Dan Forcino as a definite casualty. On the heels of the Forcino Five came Keddie, and he cracked, then quit.

[Mikey71]

Honestly if someone put my family and my little town of 2000 under a microscope. Let's just say they would have a field day. I can totally relate to this family. Growing up in a small town and my single mom with her 3 kids living in a trailer on foodstamps. The town talked shit. Circumstances don't define you. Character does. Like I tell my children, adversity builds character. We have a lot of character.

[Dogfur]

Zonita is pretty much the only person I believe in this whole sordid piece-of-shit case so far. It seems she was a cornerstone of stability in the Keddie kids' circle, and that gives me pause about what other crazy and sketchy shit was going on around the 'hood in '81. I'm pretty confident at this point Zonita's official statements (and probably the rest of the family's as well) were edited or made to disappear since they would probably clear up a bunch of things for us. Maybe they exist and Gam's got them under his 36 year old skirt...The 'Sue's Saturday Sex noise' statements are still all hearsay from the documentary days I gather, but there seems to be a lot of steam behind it...James Sr. should probably have a healthy supply of things he was questioned about yet we see nothing, and of course the contradictory elements of James Jr. the morning the crime was discovered...

I've hung with a lot of Mormons folk over the years and while I don't share their particular spiritual beliefs I am confident to say honesty and protection of the community would supersede the deep privacy issues many Mormons practice. Zonita has been portrayed as deep into the church, and while not street-wise my bet is she was tuned into the Keddie scene far beyond 'Sue was a bad mother'. ..and she had something to say when the murders went down...and Sly knew this as well...