Things I've been wondering

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Things I've been wondering

Postby not sure » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:00 pm

I was thinking...what if Sue was frightened by something, something like say...a phone call from someone who wouldn't identify themselves? (timeline where Rick said Sue got a phone call and asked "Who is this?")
What if this phone call scared her so much she decided to keep a kitchen knife or the hammer close by? Not carrying it around per se. She wouldn't want to alarm the kids. But what if she was the first to get something to defend herself?
I've been thinking about this aspect after reading that Justin said Sue ran to defend Johnny. What is the possibility that Sue had the small steak knife in her possession and the perps grabbed it away from her?
Now please don't think I am implying Sue was the aggressor in these crimes...far from it. It was her home being invaded. I'm only taking the angle of what if the perps started out beating them but things escalated when one of them introduced a weapon? We have all been assuming the perps were the only ones who had armed themselves. What if this isn't the case?
The other thing that has me thinking is the differences in how each one died (Sue stabbed in the heart, Dana strangled and Johnny's throat slit), the condition of the bodies and the fact that Sue was the only one with defensive wounds.
Dana was hit over the head presumably with the hammer then died from strangulation. I wonder if he ever regained consciousness? Then his head was placed on a cushion, like in an apologetic gesture. Sue was stabbed in the heart and was covered with a blanket. Another apologetic or remorseful type gesture?
But Johnny? his wounds baffle me.
Justin said Sue ran to defend him. Sue had defensive wounds--from protecting him? or herself? And why the vicious gesture of slashing Johnny's throat? A slashed throat is almost a like someone saying "so there" or "take that"...an "I've won" type gesture. There's no denying what that implies nor the finality of it. But why?
Why so much anger towards Johnny? Because he defended his family? or something else?
Okay, I'm done. Sorry this was so long but these things have been bugging me for a while.
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Postby kevB » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:45 pm

That's a very interesting theory...

I don't think it would be hard to imagine that if Sue received a strange phone call that she
might feel the need to protect herself and her family if she felt like they might be in some kind of danger.
The caller could have possibly made some sort of vulgar remark followed up by a verbal threat.

If that was the case I could see Sue looking for a weapon of some sort and that may in fact
be where the knife and the hammer originated from.

If I remember correctly Johnny & Dana were bound and gagged...

This tells me the perps wanted to keep them quiet as well as keep them from
moving... but why would they tie them up if they were already dead?

I think after the first confrontation and attack on Johnny and Dana they were
then tied and gagged to keep them quiet and keep them in the cabin because they
both may have been wounded or hurt but I think when they were tied up they were
still considered a threat to the killers because they were both still alive.

But of course when it got to this point the perps probably knew they had to kill the boys.

That's why I see more than 2 perps...

You have Sue running to defend Johnny
You have Dana trying to escape and run
You have Johnny ready for a fight and probably fighting back harder than anyone
You have Tina coming out of the bedroom
You have 3 kids in a bedroom (I think the killers knew they were there)

I just can not see how 2 perps could handle all these people by themselves
there had to be more than 2 people involved in this...

The more I hear this story the more I am inclined to believe that Sue was the initial target

I think whoever did this may have not expected Johnny & Dana to arrive when they did.

I think Dana was strangled because he tried to run and when they hit him with the
hammer he probably didn't die immediately but they probably felt they had to tie him
up and maybe he started to come to and then they decided to strangle him to take care
of him once and for all to keep him from trying to get away

Johnny on the other hand was a fighter... he wasn't about to run anywhere
he was probably more confrontational and you can bet when he arrived all hell broke loose..

I think they killed Johnny the way they did because he posed the most serious threat
to them. In their eyes he was trying to be a hero and cutting his throat was probably
their way of showing him how they deal with hero's

I also think Johnny may have gotten in a few good licks of his own on the person
who personally killed him which might also help to explain why he was killed the way he was.

This is just my 2 cents and it may not be worth much because it's all pure speculation
The Absence of Evidence Is Not The Evidence Of Absence
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Postby Night Rider » Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:06 pm

Not, good thoughts, but you have a ways to go. There could be a message there, but why not Dana? We thought he had the "secret."

Why are you all missing the main point? They called Don in to ID Sue. So what caused that? And where was that done to her? I was saying "staged" back before 2006, when will you all learn?

And how about that rigor mortis that had already set in with Dana?

Does anyone really wonder who's blood is that on the pillow?

By the way, the boys had been taking Judo from Mike G, they wern't wuusses, but how bad off was Dana? How much "good stuff" did he have that night? Especially considering that he was a "brittle diabetic...
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Postby Rally » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:11 am

Night Rider, was there someones elses blood on the pillow, other than the Sharps and Danas?? I have not read this, and if so, that might back up the point brought up that Sue had the knife first, and cut one of the perps in an attempt to protect the children.

How long does it take for Rigormortis to set in on a person?? I deer hunt, and it does not take long for a deer to start to stiffen up.

When you say staged, what do you think was staged??
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Postby Night Rider » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:26 pm

Some reports indicated that Dana's rigor mortos looked like he died sitting in a chair. And also that he had been laying more towards the kitchen.

Some of us have had private discussions about the photos in the book. Many concerns were raised, like the value of the wire bindings. Plus the condition of the couch pillows.

Yes, it's the opinion of some the people that a majority of the blood on the pillow was
Sue's, not Dana's.

Some other great questions have come up, like was Johnny's lower room ransacked? And where were all the knife marks? And how about the girl's room, was that ransacked? After all, after they grabbed Tina, no one else was in it.

Could the tape bindings have been applied later? That could imply staging.
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Postby coffee is love » Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:30 pm

that wouldnt be surprising either. if you look at how johnny's hands are, the tape would need to be in a figure 8 to do any good. which it doesnt appear to be. and why is the outter tape clean? and also why is there tape around only one of his shoes? or is it just behind the arm. either way what was the point of it? not stong enough and thats why they resorted to the wire?
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Postby Rally » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:25 pm

No, it does look like the tape is only around one shoe, on Dana. and it also looks as though there is more blood on the inside wrap of the tape, compaired to the outside wrap. Odd, I never noticed that untill you just mentioned it. You can see where the outside wrap of tape covers blood.
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Postby coffee is love » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:49 pm

yeah it looks like masking tape. which would be damn near impossible to get into a figure eight.it also looks like his hands were only wrapped three times.and only one of them has a slight upward direction to the other hand. which would not have been a strong enough hold to keep him from ripping it apart. it is something that has always bothered me. why didnt he rip that tape off?????
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Postby coffee is love » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:55 pm

does anyone know what dana was lying on when they took that photo of his legs?
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Postby Rally » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am

Masking tape, thats what I was trying to think of. I kept thinking scotch tape. Yeah, masking tape is easy to tear. With only 3 wraps he should have been able to tear free.
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Postby coffee is love » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:51 pm

i just keep thinking that the photo of dana's legs wasnt taken where he was in that cabin. that he was moved and then the photo. this sounds bad but it looks as though hes lying on one of the large plastic fold up tables.
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Postby tinkerbell » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:52 am

I would assume it is at the coroner's office.
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Postby meankitty » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:46 am

I always thought from the pictures that it was medical adhesive tape, and it's harder to get off than masking tape, unless a person does multiple wraps with masking tape. Also, I wonder if the knife marks in the walls were just inside the front door. On the DVD, they were described as back and forth, which makes me wonder if the previous tenant was practicing with a throwing knife.

Maybe they called Don in to ID Sue because it would have been too traumatic for 14 year old Sheila to do so? If there was no drugs or alcohol in any of the victims, could Dana have had a reaction to insulin? Of course, anyone would be walking weird if they got hit in the head with a hammer.
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Postby Night Rider » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:41 pm

You're getting worse than Funnyfeeling.

Do you have a real answer for anything?

We have been through this years ago, read about the period 7 am to 11am on Sunday.
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Postby Indigo » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:38 pm

Looking at the crime scene photos in the book, it looks to me like Dana was the closest to the front door, Johnny in the middle and Sue "above" Johnny on the couch. However, watching the DVD, Sheila points out two different times that it was Johnny who was closest to the door, Dana in the middle and then Sue, and that Sue was also on the floor and not on the sofa. Where exactly were the bodies? And where was the sofa at the time? Looking at the photos I was under the impression that the sofa was against the wall to the right as you walked in (which is where Rick thought it was, I think), but others have said the sofa was across the room against the wall that divided the living room and kitchen.

I assume that since the lower half of Dana's jeans have no blood on them, he must have been on his knees, hence the "sitting position" when he died and then fell forward, was moved, or pushed over, so that his head was face down on the sofa cushion. It certainly looks as though this picture was taken on a white table of some sort after he was moved out of the cabin.

I apologize for asking questions that have no doubt been majorly discussed a long time ago. I've been reading all of the old posts but it's a LOT to go through!
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Postby coffee is love » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:21 pm

still isnt making sense to me i guess. maybe im mulling this over to much. but why would they be taking crime scene photos at the coroners office? that should be done at the crime scene. at least it appears to be a crime scene photo.
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Postby Night Rider » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:49 pm

Do not apoligize for anything, you folks are seeing things none of us seem to have seen, or really discussed.

I haven't really looked at that portion of the DVD, the one time I looked at that, the audio on my friends machine wasn't really "audio." I think I could hear about every tenth word.

By the way, the autopsies were done here in Sacramento by the Sacramento County Coroner's Office.
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Postby meankitty » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:14 pm

They probably did take pictures at the crime scene but I don't think they released all the photos. It looked to me like they were taking pictures of the bindings at the coroners office.

Some things I've been thinking about--if they were at the Evergreen, they must have checked in earlier. I don't think anyone would rent a room to someone with blood on them and not tell the sheriff at some point. Not after hearing about the murders. I think also they would have checked in using their real names if they checked in earlier. I think things got out of hand for whatever reason and the murders were unplanned.
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Postby Night Rider » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:50 pm

It is now fairly appearent to me that the photo on page 36 was made at the autopsy.

There is no real problem with that, it's done all the time

Some of us have also noticed how ratty his 501's look. And is that really a phone cord around his calves?

Also go back to the original VHS tape, the TV footage. Also, to me position 17 is not exactly
'laying alongside Sue on the floor."
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Postby not sure » Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:08 pm

The picture may have been taken on the gurney before they took him out of the house. But it's not unusual for them to take pictures at the coroner's office during the autopsy.

The lack of blood on the tape around Dana's legs was curious to me as well. The tape around John's hands has blood on it but for such a bloody scene (described as having blood everywhere) I would think that tape would have been saturated.

I agree that it looks more like white medical tape on their hands and legs. Masking tape doesn't have reinforcement strings as seen on the end piece of John's taped hands.

Someone out in Twitter land reminded that the bottle collector mentioned they found a tape dispenser near Tina's remains. Could this have been the dispenser the tape was taken from?

I'm also intrigued by the cord around Dana's legs. Look how straight and tight it is. Seems to me if someone were alive and tied up for a long time or being battered around while tied up that the bindings would have loosened a little or at least have slipped around and wouldn't be so straight.

Plus, doesn't it look like the tape on Dana's left foot just goes around his left foot? It doesn't look as if his two feet were taped together. What would be the purpose of taping just one foot? I thought that looked odd.

Maybe I'm seeing these things wrong...
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