Justin's statements on the timeline.

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Postby dmac » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:20 am

Here's a color-corrected version:

Image

Also, is that another blood smudge at the top of the photo, above the light switch?

It's not what the Sheriff is looking at in this photo, as the above smear is hidden by DT's head in this shot:

Image

And it's also not this previously-posted smear, which is on a floral pattern wallpaper instead of a leaf pattern:

Image

Where in the cabin did the smear on the floral pattern wallpaper come from? All shots in the living room I've seen had the leaf patterned wallpaper or wood paneling, the bedroom/bathroom hallway and both bedrooms had the same wood paneling, as did most of the kitchen.
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Postby meankitty » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:28 am

I looked, and it's hard to tell what the smudge is, but I noticed the number marking the door. I also noticed another light switch on the wood strip near the alcove in the picture of DT. Maybe the switch by the door is for the porch light.
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Postby dmac » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:55 pm

Whatever the top smudge is, it appears to be blackened by fingerprint dust. Both light switches have been dusted, as well as the doorknob and the armrest of the white seat atop the trunk.


Given the latest shot, and the fact there has long been confusion concerning body placement (even Josh's book states John was located where Sue actually was found), here's the floorplan with close approximations of body placement, based on outlines found in crime scene photos:

Image

or here:

http://c28.layerv.com/diag/images/floorplan_cubby.gif

Sue is closest to the couch, Dana is on the cushion, and John is nearest the front door.
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Postby Magnum PI » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:19 pm

Josh...To the right of the door next to the hole, there appears to be some pink-ish looking stains. Does anyone else see these? Or is the lighting messing with my eyes? It almost looks like that whole area has a pink tint to it.
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Postby Magnum PI » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:24 pm

dmac...In the large color photo, if you look at marker#16..then look at the 5 o' clock position..there appears to be a black object..Do you have any clue what it might be?
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby BUTTERFLYVALLEY1 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:27 am

I just have a few suppositions and comments and am going to state them. If I am totally wrong or have not read enough or not the right things, please do not be angry but rather give me things to read to clarify my thinking and please give me places to look. I am not very computer literate so bear with me. Thank you.

Is it possible that when the arguing began that Dana did indeed try to run? He was then struck from behind and knocked out. He was drug back into the living room and, being dead weight, and with the fighting continuing had to be dropped quickly as other perp needed help fighting the other two? He possibly could have been simply been placed face into the end cushion on the couch and totally have been in a kneeling position as it was not far from the entrance to the kitchen. His blood from the head wound have made a large amount to puddle on the cushion at that time.

The perp who had subdued Dana then stepped in to help the other perp. Then with Sue trying to help Johnny and Johnny doing the same to his mother they needed to be separated to be subdued. I believe they both had headwounds aplenty but when Johnny was stabbed in the neck, he would have bled out within a couple of minutes. I believe Sue saw the wound and like any mother would have still tried despite her wounds to go to him. I believe someone gagged her in a frenzy and was in a beserker phase by this time and started stabbing until she no longer moved. There is definitely something odd about the gag; way overdone.

There is some specualation that Tina wallked in about this time and the perps either grabbed her and took her out the back door or she was quicker and flew out the back door in a panic with adrenalin kicking and ran for her life. She may or may not have ran to the river to possibly get acroos the footbridge and hightail it out of there to probably find help. They caught her and one perp took care of her while other returned to the murder scene.

Dana may have regained consciousness by then or was coming around. The other perp strangled him and staged the murder scene the way he thought best. This included moving Dana with head on cushion and putting him on the floor where he was found. Dana was placed where he was found and Sue placed where she was found. From the way Sue and Johnny were tied so profusely it was entirely overboard; they were going nowhere fast. When their bodies were arranged then Dana was placed in between them. His feet were probably bound when he was placed kneeling on the couch but not his hands. I do not believe the perps were even aware whether they were alive until he returned to arrange their bodies and strangle Dana who wasn't dead at the time.

I also have a thought about Justin. He was traumatized to the point that his mind could not accept what he had seen. He was only twelve years old and it could, indeed, take him years to be able to put it totally in perspective and truely admit even to himself what really occurred. It is possible the mind will only accept so much at a time when it is ready to handle it. Didn't he at some point have the 10-year old and possibly 5-year old hide in the closet? That makes him a hero in my book. At this point, I have total empathy for him. This is personal to me as I have been traumatized in my lifetime at various ages. Even at 67, I can still be overset by things.

As I ask at the beginning, please do not get angry with my thoughts...and...please do guide me the necessary posts. How do i come into the forum tomorrow night, the 20th, and 7 p.m.? Thank you all so much.

Where on the boards can I find the autopsys for Sue and Dana? I just want to settle some things in my mind.
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby Chichibcc » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:46 am

BUTTERFLYVALLEY1 wrote:As I ask at the beginning, please do not get angry with my thoughts...and...please do guide me the necessary posts. How do i come into the forum tomorrow night, the 20th, and 7 p.m.? Thank you all so much.


Oh, no....I'm not angry, and I don't see anyone else getting angry, either. I thought it was actually a very good post--after all, none of us were there, so there's no way to know exactly how things transpired, but you made an excellent attempt at offering a theory on that.

To get into chat, just click on the "who is chatting" link at the bottom of the "board index" page.

BUTTERFLYVALLEY1 wrote:Where on the boards can I find the autopsys for Sue and Dana? I just want to settle some things in my mind.


You can find the autopsy diagrams in the "case files" section of the "Keddie Gallery:"
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby William Lee » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:15 pm

No worries, BUTTERFLYVALLEY1. None at all.

Not to skip replying (or commenting) on the bulk of what you wrote, but as time isn't allowing me much of itself at the moment, let me just say this: for ME, if I'd just been involved in killing these people, and Dana were last, I wouldn't have wasted time nor energy strangling him to death. I feel anyone, especially by that point and were he the last to die, with time of the essence (by then), they would've simply cut his throat--deeply to ensure death...--or beat the living hell outta his head with the hammer until he was dead. Strangulation seems so... odd. Especially after the rest. And maybe that is the simple answer: after the others, they were just too tired & the more animalistic drives had abated to some degree. But it doesn't seem right. Not at all. I feel Dana died the way he did--however the whole thing went down--differently because he wasn't putting up as much of a fight as the others (being cracked in the head straight-off might've caused this, as noted), or maybe, just maybe, as he wasn't a member of the Sharp family... maybe therefore the answer to "why" lies in this difference...
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby BUTTERFLYVALLEY1 » Sun May 01, 2011 10:20 pm

As to the strangulation of Dana. I have a theory about strangulation when killing someone...I believe it is extremely personal and usually done face to face. The strangler likes to see the life leave the body. I have no way of knowing if he was face to face when perp strangled him but it would certainly answer some questions I have about just who they really wanted dead.
:?
RE: JUSTIN'S RAG HE USED TO STOP BLEEDING ON SUE...isn't he decribing her robe? Somewhere on an earlier post that she put on a flowered robe somewhere around 9 p.m. Justin was watching LOVE BOAT with her and his two friends.

I also believe that Sue's robe was just pushed up to get to her panties to use for the "overdone" gag. A man would not just reach up under her robe and pull them down by the elastic as a lady would, he would want a little peek. Also apparently her bra was left on so they were not trying to strip or rape her.

I still believe that black piece noone can seem to understand as the pictures I have seen are not clear on it is merely a piece of black cord, it even has a natural curve to it.

I noticed another thing when reviewing the statements by Justin. At one point he speaks of a group of people gathering around Sue after she is attacked as the perps leave the boat. Just really curious about that.

Thanks guys for being so genuine.
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby Chichibcc » Mon May 02, 2011 10:09 am

BUTTERFLYVALLEY1 wrote:As to the strangulation of Dana. I have a theory about strangulation when killing someone...I believe it is extremely personal and usually done face to face. The strangler likes to see the life leave the body. I have no way of knowing if he was face to face when perp strangled him but it would certainly answer some questions I have about just who they really wanted dead.


Are you trying to say that you think Dana may have been the real target, since he was strangled and the others weren't? I guess it's possible, but I think the killers could've found a way to kill Dana when he was by himself, if they really wanted to get him that much.

BUTTERFLYVALLEY1 wrote:I still believe that black piece noone can seem to understand as the pictures I have seen are not clear on it is merely a piece of black cord, it even has a natural curve to it.


I really think that piece came from the eyeglasses Sue wore, which had black frames....and could possibly explain why the piece on the floor was curved.

Image
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Re:

Postby Chichibcc » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:57 pm

Magnum PI wrote:Josh...To the right of the door next to the hole, there appears to be some pink-ish looking stains. Does anyone else see these? Or is the lighting messing with my eyes? It almost looks like that whole area has a pink tint to it.


I'm sorry, I know it's been a while since you posted that question, but is this what you're talking about?

Image

I'm not sure, either...the stains, if that's what they really are, are just noticeable enough to see, but so faint it's impossible to tell what it is...it could be just a portion of the wallpaper pattern that had faded/worn away over time-that's what I think it most likely is.
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby LadyKim » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:01 am

http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pqa8ksA

In the photo on the top left of this collage ( sp ) black and white photo and even the color version , does anyone see the object in the bottom left corner ? To me it appears to be part of someones glasses also. It is in the pool of blood and then fades off out of the shot of the camera.

Also , with todays capabilities , I would love to know if the PD has run tests on the blood again to find out exactly who bled where. I am so curious to find out whoes blood droplets are on those tennis shoes , and whoes is on the red shorts.
My belief is that Sue was indeed going to the aid of Johnny and that she used those shorts to try and stop his bleeding , and that she may have been forced back toward the couch where she was cut or stabbed and that it is her blood on the shoes and Johnny's on the shorts .

I would love to know why there is no blood on the tube socks in these pictures.

I beleive the cardboard on the floor was put there by the crime scene people and that it is indeed covering Sue's footprints as not to smear them at all...
What do you guys think ?
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby the celt » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:57 pm

was dana killed last? these perps where after something. could sue and john been tied up or restrained some how and the perps went after dana first. how do we know that dana was knocked out when hit with the hammer. maybe they thought he was dead and then went into a killing spree. that could explain why the rage inflicked on sue and john. tina seeing this and running out, wasnt there blood on the back porch and the steps? if tina was able to get out, why not run to the seabolts, her sister was there. just typing out loud.
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby Chichibcc » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:43 pm

That's the main reason I don't think Tina did get away....I'm sure the Seabolts' would've logically been the first place she had went to had she been able to slip out of the cabin unnoticed.
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby LadyKim » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:56 am

It may be possible that Dana was not dead when the Perps came back after taking Tina . He ( Dana ) may be the one who left the blood droplets on the shoes and surrounding area , if he had gotten up in the aftermath and stood there looking at the scene. At that point one of the perps could have walked back in on him and at that point ( not having their weapon ) just began to strangle him , in a rage , due to the fact that they were suprised that he was not dead and had gotten to his feet.
Just a thought
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby dmac » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:21 pm

Not remotely likely, Kim. Each victim, as well as the shoes, had similar blood droplets on them. Sue's legs had smears and droplets on them. Dana's pants, etc. Without proper blood tests that Thomas refused to collect for or execute, it will never be possible to say whose blood was where.

The crimes happened in four stages on April 12:

    1 The killers entered and killed
    2 Initial removal and hiding of Tina's body
    3 return to the cabin for postmortem attacks and staging
    4 removal of Tina from the Keddie area to Camp Eighteen

1> The killers make their entry into the cabin in the early hours of April 12, going directly to Sue in her bedroom. The boys interrupt the crime, but are quickly overpowered and bound with tape, along with Sue and Tina, who likely didn't sleep throough the struggle when Sue was first confronted.

Not only was a Daisy air pistol in play, it's quite possible Dee's rifle was used to subdue and overpower. The fact they talked so much about the rifle- clearly contradicting each other- is Exhibit A for believing it was used. Exhibit B is the fact that the victims were all taped / bound / defenseless when they were attacked (no blood under the tape). The "apparent struggle" in the front room is what tells us Johnny and/or Dana got into it with the perps, but there was no struggle. It's a myth. The TV was out of place, but that had nothing to do with a violent struggle. The card table was knocked over, but that's because a leg had been ripped from it for Weapon 4. The only signs of struggle were the amount of blood on the floor, some knife marks on the walls, and clothes thrown around. None of that was due to struggling, though. THERE WAS NO REAL STRUGGLE. Only Sue seems to have a defensive wound to her hand, but 99.9% of the damage done to the victims is after they were bound and defenseless.

As for your thought, Kim, that Dana survived the initial onslaught- nope. Dana died of manual strangulation. It took over four minutes of face-to-face effort for the murderer to do that, and Dana was already beaten, clawhammered, tied, on the floor, and defenseless when he was strangled to death.

2> Tina was then removed from Cabin 28. Because Marty needlessly brought it up during his DOJ interview, and it's been proven he was lying about it, the hanging footbridge at the north end of Keddie Flats was likely used to get Tina across the river and out of Keddie. She was likely hidden somewhere near the Wye turnout of Highway 70 for easy retrieval when a car (Dee Lake) became available.

3> By the time the killers came back from hiding Tina (they were on foot still), Dana's body had already developed livor mortis. Still, the killers attacked the dead victims again, moved the bodies around, and tied them with wires. Dana's skull was crushed with Weapon 4 after he was already dead- the petechiae was from the strangulation, and damage to the brain also indicates Weapon 4 was used after death. Also, the alignment of W4 wounds confirm Dana was in the position he was found when W4 was used, and he was placed in that position AFTER HE DIED. So, no, Dana was not alive when the killers returned.

Likewise, Johnny was placed after death where he was found. Evidence proves he was picked up by two perps and lowered into the position he was found, then a clean white extension cord was used to tether Dana to Johnny at the feet. Sue was also bound with wire and placed where she was found- there are not enough bloodstains on the carpet to account for the number of fatal knife wounds to Johnny and Sue, and the blood stains under Sue where she was found do not match her wounds, and some of the seemingly fatal wounds on Sue could not have been made after she had been tied with wire.So, again, not only was Sue bound with wire and positioned on the floor by the couch after death, some of the woulds also came after death.

4> Later that morning, Dee Lake picked up Marty and Bo, they retrieved Tina's body from where she'd been stashed nearby, and took her to Camp Eighteen.

The killers came with premeditation. They brought restraints and weapons to the crime scene and meant to leave no evidene of premeditation behind, but they weren't very bright. They made plenty of mistakes. They tried to make the crimes look more violent, more aggressive, more random and unplanned than they were. They tried to make it look like the victims struggled, like there was some semblance of a fair fight early on when there was not. The amount of tape on the victims, the postmortem wounding, the blatant staging, the overlooked sight ramp, cigarettes, bloody glass, and bloody fingerprints show that the murderers tried to make the crime look disorganized and random, when in fact it was a premeditated, poorly executed attack.
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby Ausgirl » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:25 pm

Add to you picture up there, D, that Marty was seen talking to a man in fatigues at some point, outside the bar.

Dee Lake is said to have worn fatigues pretty constantly in those days. Of course, I can't recall right now if it was Marilyn who made both of those comments, so who knows if it's actual truth or not. I'll check up on the timeline, I guess. But if it could possibly BE confirmed he was there, the night before... that'd be a GOTCHA and a half, wouldn't it?

I wish to heck I lived in Cali, right now. I'd contact some of the people at the bar that night. Mostly locals - so some of them MUST have known Marty, and Dee - if not Boubede a little as well. I'll update the list of relevant persons this weekend, with the rest of the names and details Josh sent me. Maybe you local folks here might actually know some of them...
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby vantravelor » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:40 pm

i would love to go up there and view and review all the paper work..i am finding so much and many things that just dont add up.....the pic of one of the assaliants is nothing at all like my uncle..first of all, my uncle was a very well dressed person..so much so that we use to tease him about being a perfectionist...never a hair out of place and never long. always short and well kept..he always wore starched jeans or dress pants and never t shirts...i am sorry for this comment but he was dressed to kill or to impress..that is what i remember about my uncle. as i said i would really love to go to keddie and look around and do alot of reading...
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby Ausgirl » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:05 pm

Van, I have never thought those dreadful, badly-drawn pictures looked much like actual people, let alone Marty or your uncle. Especially Bo, as I could tell he was a natty dresser just from his old ID picture. But take into account WHO gave the descriptions, and under what circumstances. I have never believed for a moment that they had any validity to speak of, as far as putting either man at the scene. Quite the opposite, really.

I was just thinking now, right before I read your post - I've learned to trust my gut on this case. "Things that don't add up" pretty much sums up every aspect. And if you know your uncle would not have murdered a child, then that's a whole lot more than I know, so I'm willing to be open to thinking your way about it.

Marty, I can see hurting women and small children. It's what he did, to prove he was in control of his sick relationship with Marilyn.

And that's exactly what Marty confessed to doing, and took all the credit for Sue and Tina's deaths. But then, he steered very, very clear of discussing who killed the older boys, so if your uncle was a participant in these crimes that's what I'd look at him for.

I do hope for your sake and your family's that Bo had nothing to do with these crimes (except the silence he held which is still not okay, of course, but better than being a killer). I wish I could say that I did not believe he had anything to do with the murders, but Bo was stuck to Marty like glue the whole time he was in Keddie, and Marty... I truly believe he had somebody smart with him. I am not discounting Dee Lake as that person, for the record - but Bo was closer to Marty on a day to day basis at that time, and was with Marty that night, so he belongs right up there as a suspected accomplice.

But your feeling on your uncle as far as women and kids goes is totally supported by Marty himself, in his confession.
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby LadyKim » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:56 am

Thank you DMac , you always are able to make me understand and see things better after I read your posts.
I know this is totally off base , but I was had two thoughts that crossed my mind last evening .
1. Why do you suppose that the killers took Tina from the cabin if they were only going to kill her like they had the others?

2. And even more off base I am sure , I thought about the Groeone ( sp? ) murders , where Duncan killed everyone
and stole two children , only to murder one of them and keep the other.
Very similar murders in my mind.
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