Premeditation

[Eastern]

I think there was premeditation of at least binding and assault. Justin described a perp taking the tape of out of his pocket. That leads me to believe that one of the killers came there with a roll of tape in his pocket and it was planned beforehand to bind at least one of the victims - most likely Sue.

Justin also talks several times about a perp using a pocket knife, i.e., the description sounds like it was the bloody Swiss Army knife found in the garbage bin at the general store. I have known guys who generally carried around a pocket knife in their jeans pocket, so I'm not so sure having a pocket knife with him would alone imply premed. Considering tape and a knife were brought along, I would say there was definitely premeditation of doing something other than chatting up Sue or talking to her about an issue.

I'm too lazy right now to quote the excerpt's where Justin was talking about the tape, but you can read the tape bit on the timeline and the knife excerpts in the hypnosis notes Josh posted. He didn't post Justin's responses, but the hypnotist (not DT lol) is replying back to what Justin said. I also think from Justin's description of events in those notes, that he definitely saw at least some of the murders and not just the aftermath.

[frida]

I see Bo coming with the tape. I see Marde telling Bo he wants to go and "get" Sue-I see Bo thinking to bring along some tape to bind her with. Marde appears to be a mean, volatile SOB but to me Bo smacks of psychopath. Marde's affect is all over the place--he's up, down, right left. Bo's affect is flat--Marde reacts to events--like a rubber hammer hitting a knee. Bo seems like a cold, deliberate son of a bitch. Bo's remark that it "wouldn't bother him to kill a broad or a child" is telling. He's thought about it. It is a conceptual thing to him. Marde always has a particular person in mind--wants to blow up his Dad's house because he's pissed at him. He doesn't say, "it wouldn't bother me to blow up an old guy's house"- for example.

In my opinion, Marde wanted to go there and rape Sue, teach her a lesson, whatever. The attack on Sue was premeditated absolutely. I think Bo got into it way more than Marde thought he would. The victims were each attacked several times--not just in one explosive incidence as I have come to learn from this forum. At first I was under the impression it all happened rather fast. Now that I know it went on for awhile, it makes me think that Marde had no idea just how sick Bo was. When others describe Marde's violent behavioral outbursts from the past, it appears they were just BAM, explosions. Throws the coffee on the floor and screams. Tries to run over Marilyn & Justin with the car. Throws knives at people. No one describes ongoing torture sessions. He threw the coffee down. Then he tied me to a chair. Then he hit me in the head with a hammer. Then he tried to run over the other people who were there. Then he tied me up with cords and tape. Then he threw knives at the wall. Then he hit me with the hammer some more. Then he choked me....

[dmac]

Time to connect a few dots and make the leap towards a logical conclusion: The beginnings of what became a quadruple murder was premeditated, planned to involve a confrontation and binding of victim(s). Follow along and see if you agree with my logic.

Although the legal term 'premeditation' is mostly heard in capital murder cases, it is used as a point of consideration in sentencing for a wide range of crimes.

PREMEDITATION: With planning or deliberation. The amount of time needed for premeditation regarding an act depends on the person and the circumstances. It must be long enough, after forming the intent to act, for the person to have been fully conscious of the intent and to have considered the act.

A design formed to commit a crime or to do some other thing before it is done.

Premeditation differs essentially from will, which constitutes the crime, because it supposes besides an actual will, a deliberation and a continued persistence which indicate more perversity. The preparation of arms or other instruments required for the execution of the crime, are indications of a premeditation, but are not absolute proof of it, as these preparations may have been intended for other purposes, and then suddenly changed to the performance of the criminal act. Murder by poisoning must of necessity be done with premeditation.

Several weeks ago, I posted that premeditation was likely involved in the crime based solely on the amount of tape used to restrain the victims found inside the cabin. From viewtopic.php?f=7&t=374 --

Med Tape Premed (and other factors) Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:48 pm

A rough estimation of the amount of tape used on Johnny, Sue, and Dana is 202", or 16.83 feet.

Back then, and even now, the common length for rolls of household medical tape was 5 yards, or fifteen feet. 180 inches. That means more than one standard roll of tape was already used inside of cabin 28, not counting the fact I underestimated and did not take into account the tape used on Sue's mouth as part of the gag.

Summation:

We have a crime that began so late at night, the very timeframe is an indicator of intent of something. You don't ask for a cup of sugar at that hour, do you? So, going to Cabin 28 that late means you had something in or on your mind. The term "premeditation" doesn't come into play until an actual crime is plotted or intended, and 'drunk and disorderly' and 'trespassing' don't exactly match that horrid level of intent.

Next is the fact more tape was used to bind them than can be easily explained away. Unless Sue had multiple rolls of medical tape handy (since taping and gagging was done before much, if any, blood had been spilled), it was brought to the cabin. In rural areas, you're not very useful unless you carry a pocketknife, so claims of pocketknives mean nothing towards premeditation in this case. But who carries around medical tape? THAT would definitely match the definition of premeditation of a greater crime.

There was a degree of intent that something unpleasant was going to happen in Cabin 28 that night. The perps did not go there with roses and candy in mind. The main questions from this post / thread are:

Was there enough intent of a crime to constitute premeditation, and to what end?
Was the tape brought with them?
Was weapon #4 brought with them?

At the time I thought it likely, yet unsubstantiated, that the tape was brought to the scene. Although most known weapons and restraints used in the commission of the crime came from inside Cabin 28, they appear to have been collected when the crime unexpectedly escalated. The tape-- if Sue even had any-- would likely have been found in the bathroom, yet everything else the perps collected to use in the crime came from the living room or kitchen. The tape was used very early as the first binding (with no blood found under any tape), and it held (other than Dana's legs). So why go looking for tape when the wire that was eventually used was not only stronger but readily available where the crime was taking place? It seems the tape was already conveniently in a perp's pocket, as they had already planned on using it.

From Timeline A, compiled by a member of PCSO independently from the timeline ('B') on the PCSO wall:

810412-0000a Justin purports to have a dream, which he describes the two suspects having a fight with Johnny and Dana. He says one suspect took tape from his right pocket, and one of the suspects called Mrs. Sharp “Sue.” (sometime during the night)

Even though I'm the very one that coded and posted Timeline A on the main site, even I failed to notice this bit. Also, oddly, Justin's comment concerning the tape taken from a perp's pocket is not listed anywhere on the official Timeline B, including Justin's redacted statements, which are now posted in full here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=426 How did this incredibly pertinent detail magically fail to be included in the official timeline?

So, now we have some substantiation, from Justin, that tape was brought to the scene. Most are likely familiar with my doubts about Justin's multiple takes on what he saw, but what has become quite evident is many things he told PCSO are substantiated by fact. Also, I've found his earliest statements match up best with what we independently know happened in the cabin. As Part Two indicates, it was over 2 weeks after his initial statements to Hypno-Queen DT that his story changed dramatically to the point where he claimed he only saw the perps from the back as he peeked through the crack in the boys' door. This new version was doubted so strongly Det. Stoy that he went to the cabin and demonstrated it was physically impossible to see anything from that location.

Not that we need to rely solely on Justin's words. Here is some new intel Josh added hours ago to his post concerning info provided the FBI for profiling viewtopic.php?f=15&t=422 --

The electrical cord used to tie up the victims was cut from appliances in the Sharp's residence where they were murdered. The electrical tape used on the victims is not known by surviving children to have been in the house prior to the murders and may have been brought by the murderers but this is unsubstantiated.

Despite multiple errors in the report (it was white cloth-backed medical tape, not electrical tape-- which is a thick, most often black, plastic or vinyl tape), not only were survivors asked about the tape at the time, the PCSO concluded the tape was likely brought by a perp.

From Josh's post of redacted portions of Justin's (non-DT) hypnosis session, found here viewtopic.php?f=15&t=274 --

Psych: Sheriff Thomas did ask me to talk to you about a couple of more things, and I agree it would be important to have you talk about these things in a little bit of detail. I would like to go back on this tape to the point of which these, uh, two men are having a fight. I would like you to tell me just what you see them doing as we look at the tape. And you describe just what you see them doing, what kind of fight, what happened to Johnny and Dana and the mother.

Psych: The mom gets cut in the chest. And what does she get cut with?

Psych: With a knife? Suppose we zoom in real close on that, okay? Real close on that. And I'd like you, please, to describe just everything that you see about her getting cut with the knife.

Psych: Mm, mm. Do you see the pocket knife there?

Psych: Now, let's zoom in real tight, get a real close-up shot and take a good long look at that pocket knife, and describe everything about it that you see.

Psych: Some other gadgets on it? Mmm, mm. What other gadgets do you see on that pocket knife?

Psych: And scissors, okay. A spoon and a fork. And does that knife have any kind of writing on it?...Any kind of symbol?...or sign on it?

Psych: Who's holding that knife or who's using that knife?...The man in the black hair. Now I'd like you to zoom in and focus in and tell me just what he's doing with that knife.

Add that to other info concerning the pocket knife which PCSO decided to leave in the 'official' Timeline ('B'), and the bloody pocket knife, tissue, and cardboard box deposited in the trash bin behind the General Store, and we have sufficient intel to conclude a pocket knife and tape were brought to the scene by the perps. The crime was not necessarily intended to be murder, but it was a premeditated felony of some sort. The other tools and objects used in the crime, having all come from within the cabin, indicate unexpected escalation. However, the origin of this crime was planned, and this is no longer a case of a spur-of-the-moment confrontation that spiraled horrendously out of control. This was a felony from the very beginning, which further explains how it escalated so violently and horrendously.

She said she had first aid tape and masking tape in her house.

"Well, I changed and I called the guy at the bat and told him, I said you just lost several customers over lettin' somebody switch the music and he says, well, he, you now, he, the bartender was concerned, don't be mad at me, come on back down, ya know, so we went back down and show good faith that we weren't mad at him. But we must have got back down there, oh, 1:15. We had about enough time to get one drink, before the bar closed."

DOJ: "What time do they normally close? 1:30 or 2:00?"

"Twoish on Saturday."

DOJ: "So you figure you got back there around 1:15 or 1:30?"

"1:15 or so. We had about enough time to drink one drink, which, about a half hour. Must have been, oh, I'd say 1:45 when we left there and started back up. And again, cuttin' up jackpots and talking."

Bo and Marderer wear their disco leisure suits to the Back Door bar. Some people had been playing records, and when they stop the music changes genres, which offends them to the point of leaving. Marde changes clothes once home- presumably Bo does as well, since they were identical twins at this point of their whirlwind romance. Then, AFTER changing clothes, he calls back to the bar to fight more and/or apologize? It's 1:15 and you are in Keddie, and you just left the only place to get action for MILES, and you change into other clothes? Why not change into bed clothes? What exactly were their plans at 1:20 am, before supposedly getting coaxed back to the bar by a smooth-talking bartender? That speaks volumes to me.

Here's my spec on this- they knew they were not done for the night, which is why they got out of the disco duds and into work clothes. Plans were already in place, and the knife and tape were placed in their newly-donned clothes, which they took to the bar before going to 28. Perhaps the phone call and return to the bar was the excuse they needed to placate Mariloon in order to get out of the cabin again. Either way, there was a felony planned before Bo and Marde returned to the Back Door in the early hours of April 12th.


.

[Jdombrowski89]

[quote="frida"]In my opinion, Marde wanted to go there and rape Sue, teach her a lesson, whatever.quote]


First time poster, new here, so go easy . I look at this aspect, in these crimes, as an interesting tidbit. From what was collected at the scene, there was no evidence of penetration of any type to Sue Sharp, but does anyone know if there was any recorded instance of semen on the body? Even if there is none present around the body, it wouldn't evidently rule out rape as a factor for these crimes (In the instance of Sue Sharp). With Sue's garment pushed up, revealing her body, one cannot help but think "Why was this necessary?" Atleast with the body of Sue Sharp, there seems to be a possible sliver of increment in some form of sexual pleasure exploited. Looking at how she was bound, attacked, etc, one can only ask themselves the rape question more than once I imagine.

It's also possible that the boys had actually come home, and interrupted the attack on Sue. I've noticed several posters on here (After reading hours and hours of posts) believe this somewhat to be the case, with others believing the killers had in fact, picked up Dana and John, taking them home to Cabin 28. It also appears that the doorway showed no signs of forced entry. Of course this would accumlate 2 instances. Either, (1) The two boys walked in, their killer forcing them to (At what extent, who knows should this be the case), or (2) Sue Sharp opens the door to the cabin to someone she knows. There doesn't really seem to be any evidence, from what I can see, that the perpetrator(s) gained access that would cause damage to the structure itself, leading me to believe, in my opinion, that of course the attacker(s) were well known. (Sorry if any of this is old news and such, just the habit of school speaking)

And speaking of Pre-meditation, some of the things I noticed was that of the weapons that have appeared to have been used, all but one ("Weapon #4") are from the cabin itself. Therefore if anything, it is possible the killer(s) entered the residence, with the tape that Justin apparently saw from one of the killers, and the "pocketknife" or whatever Weapon #4 was, being the only items brought with them to the residence. Now of course if any of the cords and such used to bind the victims were pre-cut, or foreign to the home, that also could have belonged to the killer(s) that could still point to a form of pre-meditation. Like Eastern said at the beginning of this thread, I too agree that at the point of one of the killers removing the tape, it strongly points to a Pre-meditation factor being involved, with the intent to cause harm. My point here being that it is possible from what I've seen, about the beginning motive being that of rape, turning then into a Triple-Homicide.

And one more note, with looking at the amounts of evidence located, with some of the cords that were used to bound Dana, John, and Sue, was there any mention as to if any of the cords collected were "pre-cut" or were they all from inside Cabin 28?

Just my two cents.

Justin

[frida]

I came to the conclusion they intended to sexually assault Sue at the outset for a number of reasons, after much study of the case, the boards, the films. It wasn't my first thought when hearing about the crime by any means. She was the only one found unclothed (nude from the waist down, with her clothing pushed up) tho covered at some point after she was killed. She was gagged excessively and with her underwear--seemed to smack of sexual violence to me. They could and did gag her with other things but they used her underwear also which said something to me. No fluids were found that I have heard of but that doesn't mean that rape wasn't the intent. I have read that a lot of rapes are committed when the attacker isn't even fully erect (sorry-gross I know) and they don't ejaculate. I know there could still be fluids even in that scenario but I don't know if a rape kit was done. Also, as Justin pointed out-was semen found around the bodies-on any of the clothes scattered about? Did anyone leave a stain during the frenzy of violence? Most of us that feel Sue was the initial target feel the attack was interrupted-meaning as far as the rape aspect goes-we don't know how far they got toward that goal. Bo made sure to mention he was impotent in his DOJ interview. Marde was known to despise and be violent toward women--they were all whores to him. Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed was a catch phrase of his. Sue was viciously attacked--beaten, stabbed, etc. Left hog tied. All these things pointed to a foiled rape attempt or at least an attempt to humiliate and punish with a sexual element--especially the way she was found. None of the other victims were naked from the waist down, with their underwear stuffed in their mouths.

Also-I believe the cords were all from the cabin--from appliances. This might sound goofy but along with premeditation the tape could have been a prop of sorts. Useful to bind someone, sure, but also when whipped out at the start of the attack, after Sue was grabbed or whatever--as a scare tactic, a dominance thing. She was a tiny woman--2 men--even marde and bo--sad sick little men that they were--could have overpowered her rather easily I would think. Taping her up would also be a means of subjugating her. Once they were in the cabin and the encounter started, I am sure it was obvious they weren't there with flowers and candy (to quote dmac) but once that roll of tape came out of the pocket, it was written in stone and poor Sue must have been so terrified.

[coffee is love]

mk that would be true if we took everything LE said and reported as cold, hard, with out a doubt truth..... and id pity the fool(s) that did

[dmac]

If we speak to what LE literally has, not what they really have, we have little more than bullshit.

We have DeCrona and others speaking knives bent backwards to resemble a pocket knife (PCSO's own red herring to avert from the store's trash?), blood sprayed "absolutely everywhere", destroyed furniture, knife marks everywhere, hours of ritual torture, and a predominating idea that lasted for years: phone cord was used to bind the victims, and Tina must have helped because the cord came from her room. That's to name VERY FEW of the tidbits of brilliant lies emanating from this case, not to mention the poisoned Petri reservoir Metcalfe's ineptitude has endlessly utilized to further muddle the waters.

We have a LIKELIHOOD the tape and pocket knife were brought to the scene. All electrical cords I've seen may have come from the house, but CS photos show lengths of cord abandoned, unused, near and under Dana's legs. And where did weapon 4, responsible for Dana's primary cause of death. come from? Although the card table leg has not been eliminated, it is by no means certified.

And that's just scratching the surface.

We have disinformation and (intentional) taint. We have successions of PCSO regimes unwilling to work the case, much less try to clear the biggest blemish in their collective history. We have the populace of Plumas unwilling to tell a sheriff their vote will be cast elsewhere without resolution to this crime.

Despite the public misinformation and apathy, the case is moving forward rapidly. We have a goldmine of information at our fingertips, and we are slowly exposing lies and connecting truths. We are also driven by a common goal.

Why was phone cord mentioned so often? Is that a pile of phone cord I see by the hallway entrance in one CS photo?

.

[Jdombrowski89]

Dmac,

Agreed. After spending just a few days diving into the information here, there is PLENTY of neglect on PCSO's part, and the DOJ is just as responsible in ignoring the statements of the crimes. Around here, especially with the County Detective's unit, when I was with them last spring, everything was not only looked at in extreme detail, not only by the appropiate County Detective, but by the Chief County Detective, and THEN the appropiate prosecutor(s). Now of course in 81' the techniques would be vastly different from what the techniques are here, and anywhere else. Judging by the looks of things, I wouldn't be surprised if anyone told me PCSO wasn't more professionally coordinated than they were at the time of the murders.

From a LE perspective (coming from me) and dealing with my experience, I see everything BUT what the police reported. They reported the scene as if a brutal, constantly violent crime occured. Of course the crimes occured were brutal and heinous in particular. There is no broken furniture. Blood is not literally "sprayed" all over the walls. One wonders why PSCO went to lengths to do the falsified reporting here. If it was in any big city, or elsewhere, in 2011, this act would surely warrant termination or fierce outcry from the public.

Are you saying that theres a good chance the killer(s) brought the cords with them? I merely only brought this up becuase of the case of BTK. I'm stating this as an example of the types of cords Dennis Rader used when he brought them to the crime scenes. But judging from the images, and documents available here, it would appear most of the binding came from inside Cabin 28. But one interesting tidbit is that if the cords came from various rooms, wouldn't it have atleast stirred Greg, Ricky, and Justin to an extent?

If the perpetrator(s) came with a tape and pocketknife (If, as you agree the likelihood is that) and collected with some of the evidence, it clearly shows the killers did NOT come to merely tie everyone up. The person of "interest" to the killer(s) clearly seems to be Sue Sharp. And with Dana and John, they were just in the way of the killer(s). I personally believe that Sue was approached, and attacked,etc, before the two boys came home. With her tied up, as John and Dana come walking in, thats one victim per perpetrator. Plus, we also have Tina to tie in.

It's a shame that the PSCO and DOJ are not properly investigating this crime, and have neglected it so for the past 20+ years. But once this crime is solved (I beleive it will, much like everyone else here) I would imagine that LE would try as hard as possible to bask in the sunlight in the conclusion. Only then would all the real evidence blow up in their face.

Justin

[meankitty]

Those 2 suits did come up missing, and I would like to know if there are any statements from the people there about them coming back.

As for premeditation, at the point the perps decided to go into cabin 28, something was premeditated. I think if there was a cop parked there on the street, the perps would not have went in.

[Sympylman]

*meankitty*
As for premeditation, at the point the perps decided to go into cabin 28, something was premeditated. I think if there was a cop parked there on the street, the perps would not have went in.









Uuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmm........that is truly, truly brilliant. Thank you.......

[justice17]

This is my exact feeling as well. It makes sense 100%.


quote from Dmac above post-
Here's my spec on this- they knew they were not done for the night, which is why they got out of the disco duds and into work clothes. Plans were already in place, and the knife and tape were placed in their newly-donned clothes, which they took to the bar before going to 28. Perhaps the phone call and return to the bar was the excuse they needed to placate Mariloon in order to get out of the cabin again. Either way, there was a felony planned before Bo and Marde returned to the Back Door in the early hours of April 12th.

[dmac]

Going back to Eastern's thread-opening OP, premed and WEAPONS.

This was a premeditated attack on Cabin 28. The killers knew the victims.

Ignore for the time being "motives" and "how the murders went down", as we'll NEVER KNOW THAT CRAP. Get over it.

Let's concentrate on weapons used, as well as PCSO's immediate and longstanding lie that the murders were an unplanned crime of opportunity, with ALL WEAPONS COMING FROM WITHIN THE CABIN: PURE LIE!

#1 Daisy 880 Rifle used to shoot and bludgeon victims. This was brought and removed from the crime scene. BY THE KILLERS!
#2 TAPE: At least three rolls of medical tape of varying widths used on the victims. Sheila has remained consistent 28 had no such tape. The bathroom was not disturbed or disheveled, as if searched, whereas the kitchen was. Loon, for what it's worth (ZERO!) said she had several rolls of tape at 26.
#3 KNIVES: The bloody pocket knife found in the trash can by the dorm, alongside bloody cardboard and tissues, indicate all came from the crime scene. The pocket knife did not come from 28. Justin mentioned one of the killers used a pocket knife pulled from his pocket. The huge Old Hickory butcher knife is not responsible for the fatal wound to Johnny's neck, nor is the flimsy steak knife abandoned near Johnny's torso- look at the shallow, postmortem stab wounds to Johnny's chest THROUGH HIS CLOTHING AFTER HE WAS ALREADY POSED and tell me why that flimsy steak knife was used, bent on Johnny's ribcage, then tossed aside.
#4 HAMMERS "I'd love to see the hammer that came from Sue's house, because mine is missing!" Marty Smartt said this, out of the blue. The circular skull wounds attributed to hammer blows come in two distinct sizes, according to the ME. Hence, two hammers. The ME reports are dubious at best, though.
#5 CORDS Whether from lamps or the phone or from the clothesline, the only cords found on victims are electrical appliance cords, all CUT from appliances (other than the white extension cord sloppily used to tie Johnny and Dana together). ALL CORDS WERE USED POSTMORTEM for STAGING. The bindings that constrained the victims during their murders was the TAPE.

I'm bored with pointing out the obvious yet again. The killers intended a violent home invasion. Whether murder was planned? How is that relevant?! THE WEAPONS CAME FROM THE KILLERS, NOT 28. It was a premeditated crime, pure and simple.

[dntblvu]

Just thoughts... is it just me, or is it not laughable they thought of medical tape? And I agree Sue seems to be the one they were mainly after, but why not do it with the kids in school? And I agree it was premeditated, but they planned (?) something, what ever the motive was, with a house full of kids??? They were on drugs. Stupid. And all that and no sexual contact found? Who knows what the motive was, is right.

[Marius_Eponine]

I know the autopsy apparently found no signs of sexual assault, but I believe the way she was posed and her state of undress are more than enough to imply a sexual component to the crime, in my opinion.

[dmac]

dntblvu, who thought of med tape? the killers? You think that's interesting how? That's how it was done and I'm just asking why you find it amusing or interesting. I can't tell by your sparse words, as usual, but I believe you're interested.

In what I have no f-cking clue.

I'm not dead certain on this but I believe the autopsies were botched. Way up. I don't trust any of the shit that smells "liar", and CA-DOJ stink like they were just up that ass.

[dntblvu]

It not literally laughable, I was just being sarcastic. Why would they use medical tape? There's duct tape, rope, the wires they used... I just thought if it was so premeditated, they brought medical tape? Maybe that's what they had handy, thinking it would just be Sue they'd need it for? Maybe they thought they could get her out and away from the house.

[Marius_Eponine]

Maybe Medical tape was the easiest to get? we just don't know, honestly.

[Marius_Eponine]

DMAC, they obviously went out and purchased this tape with the intent of doing harm. Why do you think they chose Medical tape in particular?

[dmac]

Ya know, I heavily doubt they went out and specifically bought tape for the murders. Loon has repeatedly stated they had a lot of tape around the house. And, while Bo was not at the VA in Reno, Marty had just pulled a couple weeks in their bouncy barn. I can easily see Marty swiping whatever he saw that wasn't nailed down.

It's one of those things we'll probably never know, but it's certainly way down on my list of things I'd like to know.