That night according to Justin

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

That night according to Justin

Postby meankitty » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:18 pm

I posted this on the cabin28 forum and thought I'd also post it here, since the other site is having problems.

I don't know how reliable Justins statements on the timeline are, but I guess they're the best we have since they were made 28 years ago before he got hypnotized as an adult. I think I'll pry all Love Boat references off them and see if I can put the statements in some type of coherent order. (I'm not sure when the perp said Sue's name, so I'm guessing where to put it.)

The description of the 2 men according to Justin------
He had long black hair, short over the ear. His hair was combed back. He had black glasses with gold ring and gold frame and black and brown lenses. He had a mustache, jean jacket, blue jeans, no belt. Cowboy boots. Black round toe with a squiggly design.

There was another man dressed up like him. He had brown hair, past his ears, halfway. Curly at the end. Same kind of glasses as the other man and same kind of clothes. He wore marked Army boots with a waffle stomper type sole.

The sequence of events according to Justin-----
Justin said he heard a noise, awoke, and went to the doorway and peeked into the living room. Sue was laying on the sofa and the 2 men were standing in the center of the room. John and Dana then came home and entered the front door. Nobody had a gun. He (the black haired man) had a hammer in his left hand, it had a wooden handle and a steel hammering thing and a point at the end, and a knife like a pocket knife in his right hand. The (brown haired) man just said her name "Sue". The man fighting with Johnny called Mrs. Sharp "Sue".

John was protecting Sue. John argues with the 2 men and a fight starts. John and Dana fought the men. John and Dana touched the wall by the T.V. while fighting. Dana tried to get away and fled toward the kitchen when the brown haired man strikes him with a hammer. Dana was almost drunk. He was walking weird. Sue rushes to Johns aid. Justin went back into the bedroom and hid behind the door. Sue was cut in the middle of the chest by a black haired man using a pocket knife. The (brown haired) man used a knife on Johnny. The suspects then tie up Johnny and Dana. Johnny's hands were tied and there was blood all over his face.

Tina comes out of her room dragging a blanket and asks "What's going on?" The two men rush to Tina, grab her by the arms, and drag her out the back door as she cries "Help, help!" Later the brown haired man returns and covers Sue with a blanket. Justin looks under the sheet and she (Sue) was slit on the chest. Justin stated in his dream he was down by Sue trying to take care of her. He took a blue and white flowered rag and put it on Sues chest. All the blood was running down and he was trying to patch Sue up. She had black hair and a sheet over her. Justin went back to bed, covered himself with a blanket and fell asleep in about an hour.

Justin told his mother that someone had a sweatsuit on. He talked about the T.V. Justin said that John and Dana came in at midnight.
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Postby coffee is love » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:38 pm

perhaps momma taught him to lie? how did he casually walk back into the bedroom? or even if the boys were asleep he didnt wake them up to tell them what was happening? what could possibly go through someones head at that age and situation to keep them from screaming, crying, yelling, running etc? could he not have reconnected the phone and called for help? it doesnt add up. it appears that the fight/flight response didnt register because he didnt do either. just went to bed.......
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Postby Neon Bulb » Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:50 pm

:arrow: .
Last edited by Neon Bulb on Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby mechelle69 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:33 am

Illuminating thought process, Neon. More and more, I have come to believe that someone in LE didn't want this case solved. Often I have wondered if the hypnosis was done to gain information or maybe to cover information. If Justin knew the names of the perps, that should have easily come out under hypnosis.
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Postby mechelle69 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:09 am

<<<<The sequence of events according to Justin-----
Justin said he heard a noise, awoke, and went to the doorway and peeked into the living room. Sue was laying on the sofa and the 2 men were standing in the center of the room. John and Dana then came home and entered the front door. Nobody had a gun. He (the black haired man) had a hammer in his left hand, it had a wooden handle and a steel hammering thing and a point at the end, and a knife like a pocket knife in his right hand. The (brown haired) man just said her name "Sue". The man fighting with Johnny called Mrs. Sharp "Sue".

John was protecting Sue. John argues with the 2 men and a fight starts. John and Dana fought the men. John and Dana touched the wall by the T.V. while fighting. Dana tried to get away and fled toward the kitchen when the brown haired man strikes him with a hammer. Dana was almost drunk. He was walking weird. Sue rushes to Johns aid. Justin went back into the bedroom and hid behind the door. Sue was cut in the middle of the chest by a black haired man using a pocket knife. The (brown haired) man used a knife on Johnny. The suspects then tie up Johnny and Dana. Johnny's hands were tied and there was blood all over his face.>>>>



Why would Sue be lying on the couch with 2 men standing in the middle of her living room? This makes no sense unless she was already incapacitated. But if she was incapacitated she could not have rushed to John's aid. I would think if she had been the one to let them in the house, she wouldn't have laid back down on the couch. Could someone else let them in? Maybe she was asleep? Not likely, but it just makes no sense.

Justin was witnessing a very tramatic event. It is quite possible that his mind has the order of events mixed up.
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Postby coffee is love » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:54 am

i wonder if the sole purpose of the first session was to see if he was able to or actually knew the perps. (assuming it was LE). If so that would have given the cops a heads up and a way to straighten things out. could this really have been when justin became afraid to go home?
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Postby not sure » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:46 am

Do you mean LE was in the cabin when it happened and THEY told him not to leave or his family would get it too?

Marilyn did say Justin would hide under the desk at school when they would come to pull him from class to talk to him. She said they pulled him several times without her foreknowledge and violating her right, as his parent, to be present during questioning.

What still bugs me about the possibility of LE being involved is what happened to Tina? If they took her to keep her from ratting them out, why not just kill her there? I don't like to think of LE being involved in the imagined horrors she may have gone through if she wasn't killed right away. That possibility above all others bothers me the most.

And if they killed Tina because she would tell, why not kill Justin?
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Postby coffee is love » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:54 am

what if justin gave different names other than marty? it almost seems that marty and the cops may have had closer ties than led to believe. which may explain why justin wasnt a victim. but i meant that if during that session he named one of LE's own, they may have at the point told him that if he told anyone else his family would be next. so he therefore fabricated his story. and if all this butte stuff is true, whats the relationship between them and plumas?its a stretch i know.
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Postby not sure » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:12 pm

Not a stretch, Sweet. The D.A. at that time...Flanagan...who, along with Sheriff Thomas, was being investigated by the Grand Jury and a recall was in the works. Flanagan later that year resigned his position, moved to Butte Co and became Assistant D.A. When asked why he would give up a prestigious position as D.A. of one county to be an assistant in another he reportedly replied there was no where else to go with the Plumas County position, no upward movement. So essentially he took a demotion because everyone knew Mike Ramsey wasn't going anywhere away from Butte.

If you'll recall, Tina's remains were found in Butte Co but they handed the investigation over to Plumas, saying her abduction occurred in Plumas so the case belonged to them. Mighty peculiar to hand over a murder investigation like that if you ask me. Wondering who influenced that decision.
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Postby coffee is love » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:08 pm

and now flanagan is back in quincy right? that is peculiar about butte just handing it right over. you dont hear about that much. it would be interesting to hear le's perspective on how that came about. was there ever a result to that investigation?
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Postby Night Rider » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:47 pm

NS, the only thing I can say is that the Department may have been too decimated to have handled it. After Prop13 came down, Butte cried louder than anyone. They even threatened to lay off 20 of their 26 deputies, and they did close their libraries.

It has always been obvious to me that PCSD fumbled this case from the git-go, but as to real knowledge, especially as to Tina, I don't think so.

But years ago, someone mentioned to me some things that someone said. They were pretty specific as to the area. Yet this person couldn't get the answers themselves?

I have made many statements on the other board about "that morning," The initial interview has always been a problem for me. Think about that, who was in DT's car? And who was not?
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Postby the celt » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:39 am

Wasn'T one of the sharp boys about justin's age? if justin woke up to people fighting I'm sure that the other boys where also awaken. I thought i read some where that justin and the other boys hid in the closet. Justin saw the whole thing go down so when did he hid in the closet? And if the other boys where in the closet with him what did he tell them the reason was for hiding in the closet? Also, when they did leave the closet, the younger of the boys, wouldnt he wonder what and or why he wasnt allowed to see his mother or even the older sharp boy for that matter? And then justin went to sleep? This makes no since. Where is it mentioned the interview LE had with the two other boys in that room with justin? Again wasnt the older boy around justin's age?
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Postby the celt » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:28 am

If one of the perps did call sue by name and the way that john was killed, slit throat, and the fact that sue was stabbed in the chest, to me seems vicious. What if these perps knew sue and her family before they moved to keddie even before Quincy? What if john got into some trouble ( no disrespect to the family) and sue moved to get him away from it? If it was drugs we all know that there was maybe still is drug dealings going on. Marty and Bo, Dee and who knows maybe even the meeks( again no disrespect) where all supposedly into the drug scene back then . Maybe the people sue tried to get her family away from had loose connections with dealers in that area? And sue and her family where found out. People talk about drugs in Quincy, Orville, and keddie, whos to say that this connection didnt spread further out?
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Postby tinkerbell » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:52 am

We moved to Keddie from a little trailer to a house. It was not to get anyone away from anything. Keddie is only 7 miles away from Quincy.
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Postby meankitty » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:09 pm

Guess I'll try to answer one person at a time so I don't have a big long post.
Coffee is love--
I think the reason Justin went back to his bedroom and didn't call for help could be a combination of shock, fear, and denial. (Plus whatever dysfunction he had) I always thought he named Marty from the get go, maybe Marilyn coerced him into it. The composites didn't resemble Marty. I thought Justin was sent home before the interview with Doug Thomas. I don't know if he named any LE personnel, I'd think Justin would be too afraid to do so around Doug Thomas.

I'm thinking the reason Justin wasn't a victim is because the perps didn't know he and the 2 other boys were there. And if it was a LE person, why not check out all the rooms and make sure there were no witnesses. It seems to me that the perps weren't thinking like LE. After all, they did leave fingerprints and a bloody print behind.
Last edited by meankitty on Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby meankitty » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:13 pm

Neon Bulb--
As far as one of the perps saying Sue's name, that came from a scared kid who was hypnotized and I'm not sure if the perps even knew Sue. I've heard that eyewitness testimony was notoriously unreliable.

If they knew her well enough to call her by name, why didn't they know of Ricky and Greg. Justins account seems sketchy and disjointed. If Sue was already lying on the couch, it's possible she was already severely injured or dead.
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Postby coopcooper » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:18 pm

I believe Sue's sister said in one the deleted scenes that they tried to hypnotize Greg but he was just too young at the time and wouldn't sit still.
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Postby coopcooper » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:00 pm

Things remembeered under hypnosis are inadmissable?
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Postby Night Rider » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:35 pm

Coop, that is a very technical discussion, we are talking about California.

At the time of the crime, hypnotic testimony could have been admitted. But in I believe, 1986, California adopted the "per se exclusionary rule"

I believe that is now in force in either 13 or 15 states. But even back then, the Ca Supreme Court issued a ruling in mid-1982 called "People v Shirley." That would have been a great weapon against using any hypnotic induced testimony by Justin.
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Postby dcheryl83 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:24 pm

coffee is love wrote:perhaps momma taught him to lie? how did he casually walk back into the bedroom? or even if the boys were asleep he didnt wake them up to tell them what was happening? what could possibly go through someones head at that age and situation to keep them from screaming, crying, yelling, running etc? could he not have reconnected the phone and called for help? it doesnt add up. it appears that the fight/flight response didnt register because he didnt do either. just went to bed.......



I think you are expecting too much from a 6yr old boy. Do you remember the the Polly Klauss case? Her sister and whoever else was in the bedroom when Polly was taken didn't make a move. They were too terrified.
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