Where did the attack(s) begin?

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Where did the attack(s) begin?

Postby William Lee » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:44 pm

I'm curious. It's a curious thing, so I guess it fits.

It's curious how, on the deleted scene CS photo "walkthrough" (right click & open in another tab if wanted, otherwise it'll go straight to the linked page & one will have to back up to read here) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKJMDJQAGzA, DeCrona makes the statement that the cardboard (which is said to be "normally leaned up against the window between the bed & the wall"; more on that later) is on Sue's bed, as he calls it, and that there is a blanket on top of the cardboard bearing "about three drops of blood under [UNDER] the blanket"; also there were "some drops of blood" on a shirt that was lying partway on the edge of the bed & partly on the cardboard. In describing Tina's bed, he makes the statement that "we think that the blanket and the sheet that was covering the mother came off of this [Tina's] bed because the sheet..." whereupon the tape cuts and jumps to, "As I was saying..." that the blood "smears" on Tina's bed (on the middle of her bed) came from a perp's hands when he took the blanket to cover Sue. Wait? Did he say there was a blanket AND a sheet covering Sue...? Why, he did...

In the next "deleted scene" http://www.youtube.com/user/keddiemurdersmovie#p/a/u/0/MgBm-n38Axg, he says that there was a cord cut from a lamp that resided in a box that resided under the TV tray, a cord too short to bind anyone, but cut nevertheless; he goes on to state he saw "a couple of cords like that in the house... in the living room" that had been "purposefully cut" but they were, in his words, "too short to be used for anything". He goes on to state that there is a photo of "a section of electrical cord, too short" that was found on the floor by the end of the couch in the living room. Also, there was a photo of a section of Sue's hair that had been cut; there were more of them ("a few of those laying around", as he says, "not many of them... maybe three or four pieces"; this is in the living room.

Now, DeCrona also calls Justin a "7-year-old boy" in an earlier tape; he talks about how Justin remembers everything as a dream... but not the "Love Boat-Sue overboard"-dream we've heard so much about. He says Justin "dreamed" two male perps came in & beat & stabbed Sue, and that after, he tried to compress a rag on her wounds, "raising her gown" to compress said "rag"; he (DeCrona) implies that the red shorts might have been what was used as there was some folded clothing stacked on the couch but "here they [the red shorts] are on the floor next to where Sue Sharp was laying and they're blood soaked". Finally, he says that they've had "professionals talk to him" and that Justin "has undergone hypnosis and nothing has worked, he still remembers everything as a dream and it's real vague and there's nothing conclusive in his dream".

I wouldn't trust DeCrona to be the security guard at an Elementary School, much less anything more important that that. Sure, maybe his calling Justin a "7-year-old" was a valid mix-up. But it makes me wonder about the veracity of the rest of his comments.

Where do you think the crime started? Was Sue REALLY asleep on the couch, with an open bed available (apparently Sheila's, though he calls it Sue's); did Sue REALLY normally sleep on the couch? If so, he should have known that & not named Sheila's bed as Sue's. These little oddities may be the key. Was Sue actually in Sheila's room, sleeping, when the crime started? That doesn't jibe with Justin's story; you know, the one DeCrona ignores in these tapes, supposedly stated the morning after the murder--to look for Tina "down by the river"--or his statements that Tina came out dragging a blanket, asking "What's going on?", whereupon she was grabbed & taken out the back as the perps fled... Strange.

How did the cardboard end up where it was? Big question there. Where did Sue REALLY usually sleep? Finally, another big question: what happened to Sue's glasses?
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Re: Where did the attack(s) begin?

Postby gotbier » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:06 pm

After listening to this deleted scene, I think it started in the girl's bedroom. Which would also lead me to believe Justin's statement about Tina coming out of the bedroom carrying the blanket is false.

If the cardboard "normally leaned up against the window between the bed & the wall", it could have fallen during a struggle (what was the purpose of the cardboard 'leaning' against the window? Had it been secured to the window, it could have been to keep the cold out). Or the window could be the way the perps entered, knocking the cardboard over. (I know, why come in through the window, they could have knocked and Sue may very well have let them in since SHE KNEW THEM). However, if Sue let them in, the only way I can think that it could have started in the bedroom is if one of the perps went to get Tina and Sue followed them to make them leave her alone. Which leads to the question, who was the target, if they indeed went directly to the bedroom and Tina was the only one in there?

Does anyone know who took care of cleaning up the cabin when it was LE was done? With the 'investigation and evidence gathering' (I use those terms loosely) that was done, the glasses may have been over-looked and then swept up and tossed during clean up?
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Re: Where did the attack(s) begin?

Postby dawghouse » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:47 pm

Well, I know there's been some confusion about the sleeping arrangements (that night,) but isn't it entirely possible that Sue took the opportunity to sleep in a bed as opposed to the couch (being that Sheila was out) and the perps just let themselves in? If that's the case, then the attack certainly could have started in the girls' bedroom. I've read many comments here and elsewhere that folks "started locking their doors" after the murders. The Sharps front door may well have been open. You would think that the cops would be able to determine whether the front door was the mode of entry....

As for the cord pieces that were deliberately cut, yet too small to be used for anything, perhaps one of the victims was tied up then cut loose by the perps, or.....Justin? I'm kinda reaching here, but weren't Sues hands unbound? Maybe Justin tried to cut Sue free in addition to trying to stop her bleeding?

Just running off at the keyboard...
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Re: Where did the attack(s) begin?

Postby Chichibcc » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:13 pm

I'd never previously considered the possibility that Sue may have been sleeping in Sheila's bed since Sheila was at the Seabolts', but I find it to be a plausible theory for two reasons.

Based on Ms. Seabolt's interview in part one of the documentary, it sounded as if Sheila and Tina had attended sleepovers at her cabin fairly often, so maybe when one or both of them were staying over there, it was a common occurrence for Sue to sleep in the girls' room instead. So for her to have also possibly done so the night of April 11th probably wasn't out of the ordinary at all.

Plus, if Sue was sleeping on the couch that night, while she might have used the blanket that she was later found covered with, I would think that it would've been rather uncomfortable for her to have done so without pillows-none of the crime scene photos from the living room showed any in sight.
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Re: Where did the attack(s) begin?

Postby William Lee » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:52 am

Good ideas, all. Good ideas.

Personally, I'm not sure WHERE the attack(s) began. I do feel the girls' room is as likely as the living room, though. I also feel that there are nuggets of truth in Justin's story. Police obviously thought otherwise and--aside from their seeming-attitude that Tina was involved--which makes no sense in & of itself either & I need not point out the Whys; but LE has given us a bit of truth in what really happened in ways too, I think. Then there's other evidence only some have seen, and the bulk of us remain in the dark. We'd have to go to PC & dig, like the holders did. I can understand their holding info. I can. But for now, here's something totally different (not really but I used the phrase anyway):

I agree with Dawg. We all have always been told how Dana bolted--probably for help as much to get out, and were it simply to GET OUT I don't blame him either...--thus the kitchen being askew & tossed about COULD have come from this. Dana was hit on the head with a hammer, the kid said, and brought back to the living room. This is what has always been in the police timeline, but who knows... There were blood prints taken from the back stairwell, from Sue's car out back, and that's where one was SUPPOSED to park a vehicle, anyway...

By the way, there WAS an unidentified footprint "found behind Cabin 28". Josh, do you think the foot print significant? Sorry if you've answered it before.

Besides, the perps more than likely DID, as Justin said, flee from the back. Did they enter that way too? Hoping to pass a sleeping Sue on the couch and to move straight to the room that was the two girls'?

Sheila, if you don't mind answering and if you even see this thread, did your mom ever sleep in that room? DeCronna sure makes it sound as if it was Sue and Tina's room. I'm, as I said at the beginning, a little confused on this issue. If not Tink, then Josh, do you know? I'm sorry if I'm asking questions long-answered.

Good thinking Chichibcc. Officer DeCronna seemed to make it out as if the perps used Tina's blanket to cover Sue, leaving the blood mark on the middle of her bed. If they believed Justin's "Tina-came-out-of-the-room-carrying-a-blanket-and-was-suddenly-swept-up-and-away", all out the back door (which they DID have evidence of), why would they, in the early hours of the CS investigation, feel it was Tina's blanket covering Sue? Because the other bed had it's sheets & blanket intact, yet with blood, plus a piece of cardboard big enough to LEAN from the floor to cover the window under said blanket, so it must not be "Sue's" blanket... and yet it came from Tina's bed, i.e. the blood smear?

Could the perps have entered the back door, because, hey, it's late at night & everyone seems--and probably was, or was close--to sleep? Then creep towards the girl's room only to encounter Sue? Bad things happen, then the boys enter the living room and everything moves to there? Sure, there must have been reentry to the girl's room, getting the "too-short-to-bind" cord (from off a lamp inside a box, under the tv tray, on the far wall), grabbing the blanket to cover Sue (maybe a subliminal attempted act of compassion by one perp that was caught up in something he hadn't expected nor known how to deal with at all)? I don't know.

Could the shorter cords have been cut in order to strangle someone, or everyone, and it was discarded as a plan after some test-run?

Why was Thomas ballsy enough to--ON TELEVISION--say that "We are trying to locate Tina. We believe she may be an integral part of this. She may be the clue we're looking for."? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Xyu3dTWtE&feature=related So LE believed Tina may have been involved, or at least wanted the public to wonder that due to her disappearance. http://keddie28.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=499 A lot of angles here, my friends, within this quad-murder & kidnapping, lots of back scratching, I feel....

Finally, what of Sue's glasses? She certainly wouldn't have been misidentified as Tina had she somehow been able to have kept them on. But in all the CS photos we've seen, where are they? Are they in evidence? This may be a rhetorical question.

I do think that, with the proper info, we could eliminate some of these questions, then open doors to a tighter view of how things REALLY went down. Not from Justin, not from DeCrona, Thomas, nor the two DOJ flunkies that appeared like men in black. But through what can be gleaned from what all of them had to say.

To me, this isn't a "murder mystery" anymore. But I'm open to new perps. I certainly believe there were others involved, directly, even if M&B are our men. But: We need more info. Josh, man, please, we need some of what you've got, if not all. If any true effort is to be made, then we NEED more info to do it, and step one would be laying all cards on the table. I want this crime solved, and I can't and don't have access to the info some have, documents, photos, I'm sure very off-the-proper-path stuff, but a whole lotta truth to be found too. And with truth will come justice.
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Re: Where did the attack(s) begin?

Postby jhancock » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:49 am

I know things have been quite slow lately in terms of new information. I have posted every thing I had in my possession. However, I'm working on getting additional information...it's just taking a lot longer than last time. As soon as I get anything, I'll post it as long as I have the permission. :)
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Re: Where did the attack(s) begin?

Postby tinkerbell » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:42 am

My mom did sleep on the couch at times and tina and I shared the bigger bed at times as well.
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Re: Where did the attack(s) begin?

Postby William Lee » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:19 pm

This is just a short reply to Sheila: THANKS SO MUCH for your candid answer. It helps greatly, I feel. Do you think the crime could've started in your old bedroom, if it's okay to ask? I may be wrong but I sense we each believe that the same perps committed this crime. Without saying more than you like, does it at all seem plausible to you that the perps could've been coming for you & Tina, or possibly Tina alone, thinking Sue was on the couch? Of course, if you would rather not answer, that's okay. I simply want this case to gain momentum towards being a closed case.

Josh, I appreciate all the work you've done, man, and I really mean it. Without you, none of us--save Sheila...--would be thinking of this crime from 30 years ago each day of our lives. Least that's how it is with me, and many other posters have stated the same. I'm not complaining that incoming info has been slow; I wouldn't do that. And I'm glad to hear that you've given us the best chance possible by releasing--at this level--via your films and this site, "every thing" you have "had in your possession." And I quote that only because I wouldn't want others thinking you're selectively releasing things.

I simply question--and probably ought know the answers to...--what about the autopsies on each victim? Not photos, just the typescript. Does anyone have them? (I'm asking the whole crowd this one...) If not, how do we go about getting them? Also, at one time PC was going to reopen this case, reactivate, whatever the term used was, around the time your second film came out; can you remind me what happened with that? Obviously by having to "have the permission" to release here certain things, it would insinuate that SOMETHING is going on there. Is it? Is PCSO or any other agency, local or not, working this presently as something other than a cold case? I'm just trying to see where we all stand here, Josh. Though I know & respect you as a middleman, and I'd never kill the messenger. :)

Thank you for granting us ALL a place to try to help cause enough momentum to get this case in the least "settled officially", in some way... (And if ever you can or would help answer a few things you might know privately, I believe you have my email. If not, you can. Your trust wouldn't be broken, and I have NO vested interest aside seeing this case settled, the perps named officially, and anyone in any form of LE to have to answer to their blatant allowance of the main suspects to simply leave town & never HAVE to answer to anyone ever again... oh, and any third-wheels out there need their comeuppance as well. See? I'm not asking for TOO much... :D Kidding aside though, I will never gain personally from this crime other than to have the satisfaction of knowing that for Sheila, for Rick, for Greg, for the Sharp family, for the Wingate family, and for the souls of the horribly murdered that we ALL know DIDN'T DESERVE THEIR FATE that night, as a group we were able to make things better. That's the point for being here; otherwise, like one has posted and sincerely, it's simply a little murder mystery we all like to think we're helping solve when all we're doing is gabbing from the comforts of our respective homes...

And it could be worse: we could be doing footwork for modern day lazy & corrupt LE & not even know it. :D

With all you know, Josh, could this crime have been an attempted kidnapping gone wrong, with perps entering the back & expecting Sue to be asleep on the couch & finding out different when they entered the girl's room? And if so, with all you know, how likely is this scenario?

I'm getting old, I guess, let me pause to put on my glasses...

Oh well, I'll pause longer than that, hoping for a few good ideas and a few great answers. :)

Thanks to all participating in this thread--my first here--and this site itself. I feel we're ALL trying to do a good thing. Thank you, Josh. And thank you, Sheila.
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Re: Where did the attack(s) begin?

Postby LadyKim » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:43 am

As far as where Sue was sleeping and where the struggle may have started, I have two idea's that takes me into two different areas of the cabin.
Firstly , maybe Sue was on the couch and was using the coushin that was found on the floor under Dana as her pillow and it was knocked to the ground in the struggle. Which would lead me to think that the struggle started in the livingroom.
But in that thinking , wasn't there folded laundry on that couch , and would Sue have had enough room to sleep there with one coushin off and a pile of clothes ??

Secondly if Sue was sleeping in the girls room , then maybe the struggle started there , but AFTER the perps confronted Johnny and Dana in the livingroom and that they were the first to be attacked . Possibly Sue heard the fighting and she got up in a panic and ran to the boys , at which time Dana saw an out and tried to get out of the backdoor, where he was hit and brought back into the room. If Sue was trying at that time to help Johnny and was screaming and screaming ( why she gagged so much ) , she possibly was the one who woke Tina.... And if the boys were the first ones attacked and this second theory of mine is more accurate then that would also explain how Sue would step through blood and leave prints . She would have stepped in their blood ( JOhnny or Dana's ) before she was ever even hurt..


This is why we need to know so much more , like whoes blood was where , was it Sue's blood in the girls room on the bed and what not , or was it one of the boys blood ...
I feel if we knew whoes blood was whoes we could piece together so much more of this crime scene.
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