The bindings: was there a substantial gap...

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

The bindings: was there a substantial gap...

Postby Ausgirl » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:49 pm

.... between the initial tape bindings and the actual murders?

This has been turning around in my head the past week or so, and as ever I think best aloud, so bear with me:

All of the victims found in the house had been, prior to the major wounds, bound hand and foot in medical tape. That several layers of tape were employed says to me that the purpose was to disable the victims. The tape on Dana and Sue appears to have been cut (I have explained why I think this elsewhere: basically, try wrapping three layers of strong medical tape firmly around your wrists and then pull 'em apart - the tape will NOT snap cleanly in a square end. It just won't. It'll stretch and go thin and end up all twisted - and on Dana the tape has a square end. Sue's tape appears to have been cut, also).

I only have guesses as to how the perps got all three neatly taped up like that. My main guesses would be 1. a gun or 2. a hostage used as a threat.

The way John's hand are taped suggests that his hands were presented out in front of him with his fingers clasped. The tape gapes at the bottom in the CS pictures, at the base of his wrists. We know he was moved, and that he was taped some time before being moved. The gaping of the tape tells me that it was probably wrapped around his wrists with his arms in a straight-out position, with the tape later stretching when his arms moved from that position.

I can't say how Dana's were taped, as the tape was removed - but the tape was still evident around his ankles and appears to have been cut. So when did that happen, and -- perhaps more importantly -- why??

Sue's was also cut. We know she ran/walked through a pool of blood at some point, after the violence escalated and stabbings occurred. But there's no blood under any of the tape, so she must have been freed of the tape around her ankles prior to the bloodshed. Again --- why??

Why cut the victims loose, only to attack and bind them again? It's really hard to fathom. Hence my thinking aloud here, trying to make some kind of sense of it.

One thought I've had is that the victims were bound with tape and then perhaps left for a time. Multiple scenarios run through my mind here... if they were left, were they left with a person who panicked, feeling they were losing control of the situation, and started the violence that led to the stabbings? (this might explain the rage demonstrated in the mouth injuries and Sue's extra gags, as well as Dana having appeared to die quite some time before the others - was he hit with a hammer and disabled, strangled to show the others a 'lesson'?)

If they were left, did Justin -- or Tina -- try to free them, only to have the perps return to find Sue and Dana partially free and go into a rage? (my problem with this is - why didn't they bolt into the street and go for help? I believe they may have been 'guarded', for that reason).

In any case, the victims seem to have been subdued and bound with tape without bloodshed to begin with. Only after there were serious wounds was Sue re-gagged and bound with the electrical cord. This binding was NOT to subdue her - she was already seriously wounded.

The single cord tied around the boys' lower legs served no practical purpose whatsoever as a binding - it was placed there well after the boys were already seriously wounded and then moved into the position they were found in --- already dead, in my opinion.

Again, I have various scenarios in my mind: A/ this unnecessary binding was a perp re-asserting a sense of 'control' over the victims within themselves. B/ it was a means of obfuscating the actual events.

My gut tells me that quite some time elapsed between the tape bindings and the fatal wounds. Not that a gut feeling counts for much, but it's not without reason. I'd really like to hear what others think.
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Re: The bindings: was there a substantial gap...

Postby krazykat » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:28 am

There is a scenario that comes to my mind when I saw dmac's picture, (in another thread), of the board under the boys bedroom window being out of place. When I first saw the picture my instinct was not that Justin tried to get away out that window but Tina.

There's no trace of her in the crime scene as far as I know.

If she was able to get out then perhaps the interruption was caused by the killers need to find her before she could summon help or hide.
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Re: The bindings: was there a substantial gap...

Postby Ausgirl » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:08 pm

Hullo, KK, nice to see you here again!

That is a really interesting thought - to which my first response was "okay, but then why wasn't she screaming her head off"?

Then I thought about it, some more, recalling instances of absolute terror in my own early life - and recalling how my throat would 'close up'. Literally, in that I would find it hard to breathe sometimes, let alone make a peep. Paralysis of the vocal cords out of sheer fright, or even out of fear of being found and killed would keep a kid quiet. Or an adult, come to think of it. So it's not totally implausible that a kid climbed out and was retrieved/removed without raising the alarm.

The window in question is the boys' window though? I do have a little trouble seeing Tina going through the window there, somehow. Not impossible, though. Just requires some more thought atm.

Cheers, and thanks for your input.
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Re: The bindings: was there a substantial gap...

Postby Chichibcc » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:21 pm

krazykat wrote:There is a scenario that comes to my mind when I saw dmac's picture, (in another thread), of the board under the boys bedroom window being out of place. When I first saw the picture my instinct was not that Justin tried to get away out that window but Tina.


When I read this, I wasn't really sure this could've been possible, but then I remembered that the boys' bedroom window was much closer to the ground than the window in the girls room, so it may have been easier for her to go out through that one. Had she tried to do so from the window in her room, she would've had to have jumped a considerable distance to the ground, as the below photos indicate.

Girls' room window:

Image

Boys' room window:

Image

Then there's the question of how she was able to make it across the hall to the boys' room unseen (considering the girls' room doorway was visible to the living room).
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Re: The bindings: was there a substantial gap...

Postby krazykat » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:03 pm

I was thinking she may have tried to get out her window which is how the cardboard got displaced, then saw it was too far to the ground and tried to sneek down the hallway. If the perps where busy tying people up they might not have noticed, or they might have spotted her and she got out the window before they could get into the room and grab her.

I propose that she did get away for bit because an explaination of why Sue's first gag was removed could be that one of the perps came back to get to her to tell him where Tina might have hidden.
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Re: The bindings: was there a substantial gap...

Postby meankitty » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:09 pm

The cardboard did have some blood on it. Sue's gag was a bandanna, with tape over that and a second gag of her panties, and there was talk of a bra over that.
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Re: The bindings: was there a substantial gap...

Postby William Lee » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:05 pm

That's definitely the boys' room, Aus.

But I doubt Tina made it to their room, much less out the window. I even doubt Justin made it out the window. Had he, he'd have stayed out, I feel. Only way I can see him reentering if he had gotten out would've been through the back, but one never knows. I think Justin was in that room the whole time, minus when he exited & was confronted by the killers. M told him to go back in the room & keep the boys quiet or something would happen to them too; least this is what Rick, in the "walkthrough", seemed to think happened. And I figure Justin did just that, luckily saving Rick & Greg whom I also believe were very much awake at the time, though probably not understanding what was actually happening on the other side of their wall.

It's terrible to say, but I'll say it anyway: I hope Tina did die in that cabin, quickly, and her body removal was pure confusion-oriented. Anything aside her dying there & then is just too horrible to imagine without good merit, and much points to her dying then & there anyway. But no, I definitely don't believe it was Tina that went out that window. She'd have gone straight for the Seabolt's, and if the boys were not disturbed by the killers (by them entering the room, least where they could have seen them), it would seem it was because Justin did his job well. Tina, I think, was killed and taken because it would confuse what the crime was over and give the killers more time to distance themselves and do what they had to do to make sure they weren't caught. Why take Tina--alive or dead--to make things easier? Sure would seem to have made things harder, what with having to dispose of her off the property thereafter... BUT look how it worked out, what with DT's fucked up "Tina as co-culprit" drivel. Funny how IF that's what the killers were going for--confusion of the case's investigation--it worked out just right. So much so it was almost as if the cops thought EXACTLY what they would've wanted them to think.

Could the broken piece outside the window--IF it was even broken that morning & not way prior...--have occurred when Mr. Seabolt & Sheila got the boys out? Guess Sheila might could be asked about that one.
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Re: The bindings: was there a substantial gap...

Postby tinkerbell » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:06 pm

It could have happened when we got the kids out the window. They could have come out feet first and us helping them down. I just dont remember...all i wanted to do was get them out...
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Re: The bindings: was there a substantial gap...

Postby krazykat » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:17 am

Sorry Ausgirl it wasn't my intent to derail your discussion of a substantial gap in time between the victims being bound and the actual murders with the board being out of place under the boys window.

I certainly think it's possible there was a substantial gap but I believe you'd have to lengthen the timeline for what happened inside the cabin. A lot went on in there, so would there have been time for a substantial gap? I don't know how long it would take to subdue and bind four people? Then take time with each victim, throw knives at the wall, move the bodies, rebind them.... All that then leave early enough to not be seen taking Tina and whatever else was missing from the cabin. So to me for there to be a substantial gap the victims would have to be subdued and bound earlier in the night.
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Re: The bindings: was there a substantial gap...

Postby William Lee » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:16 pm

It wasn't "derailed", and Aus wrote about the window-scene also.

As far as time between binding & the murders, yes, I think it's very possible. Maybe even probable, what with how some things in the timeline would make more sense if there was a period in between. There are other factors that may be pertinent too, such as where the crime started versus where it ended, and a gap between binding and the fatal attacks may work into one another. It's definitely a worthy discussion to try to run all viewpoints together and see where it leads.

Though I feel there may have been a substantial time period between binding and the murders, what happened in that gap is a mystery. But I do not feel anyone left the house, unless it was the perps (or maybe a perp alone, maybe to gather needed items to complete what they had by then decided to do...), but I don't think any victims left that house alive, nor did any of the boys get out, and IF Tina was outside & alive at the time, I think it would've been after the crimes were committed upon the rest and I'm not too sure Tina ever left that house alive.

I'd love to hear other ideas though.
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