So why Camp 18?

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So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:30 am

This bothers me a lot and I think it's important. Why would they pick Camp 18 to dispose of Tina's body?

If you believe M&B moved Tina's body there on the 12th when they were supposed to be in Reno then you have to believe that they drove 100 miles in the opposite direction of their alibi. In those days, more so than now, 70 was pretty deserted on a Sunday. Even with that they were still taking a chance on being seen heading down the canyon.

If the La Porte road was closed or impassable,(was it actually?), then they could have headed up the canyon all the way to 49 and down through Truckee but why go that far out of their way to hide a body. You could just continue into Nevada and hide the body there, it would probably still be there.

If they wanted to throw off the police they could have left her in the North Valley's of Reno and she'd of been just another body found there during that time. The Washoe County coroner is supposed to have said the North Valley's are becoming a graveyard and to this day they haven't a clue as to who did most of the murders.

Then again if you just wanted to hide the body, why would you go all that way to Camp 18? I can think of a lot of places along 70 that you could put a body, and again, it would probably still be there.

So did they choose to go to Camp 18 because someone thought it would be a great place to hide a body? Or did they drive around looking for a place to hide the body and decided this looked good?

Or was the body placed there intentionally because Camp 18 was significant to one of the killers for reasons we don't understand?
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby Ausgirl » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:15 am

I think the body was placed intentionally. I also have serious doubts that it was there the whole time.

Tina may have been left somewhere closer for days or weeks. Months. Then moved to where she was found at the perps' leisure. There's no way for anyone to tell within that time frame -how long- she'd been at the Camp 18 site.

I don't think she was necessary driven all that way right after the murders. I think it's a stretch, to be honest. But she ended up there - how and with whom? Why there? Familiarity is my main thought about it.

Let's not forget the call (the tape of which 'vanished' in police custody) which informed the Butte County police that the body was not a boy's as reported but Tina Sharp's. Somebody didn't want her to go unidentified, for whatever reason. Somebody left her where a bottle collector would find her - on purpose?

Tina has always been the greatest mystery in this case. I find it hard to write about her, for my own reasons, and also because there's so much that I simply cannot get my head around. I'm glad she's being discussed a lot lately.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:09 pm

Thanks Ausgirl, It's always nice when people agree with you before you get a chance to put it to pen. I don't think she was put there on the 12th either. It's too tight. There would have been to much chance of them being seen going down the canyon. The canyon had to be crawling with cops heading up to Keddie and locals out wondering what had happened.

I do believe she was put at Camp 18 with the purpose to be found. The call affirms that to me. Who ever was in control of this would want to control how and when she was found. I'm sure whoever took her felt he owned her.

My intuition is that her bones were placed there with an intention of them being found by a deer hunter and if no one had found it by the end of hunting season an anonymous call would have been made telling the police a skeleton had been found at Camp 18.

The trouble I have with that is, again, why Camp 18? Marty and Bo don't strike me as the type of people who would be familiar with an area used mainly for hunting. They seem more like flatlanders or city folk that just happened to live, or were staying in Quincy from what I've read.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby not sure » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:02 pm

Tina, to me, has always been the wrench thrown in that puts the question mark in most theories for me. When I first came into the discussion I was told numerous times to not try to solve for Tina. But I just can't help but bring her up. There are scenarios that have been discussed the Tina factor fits in but most of those discussions get tabled. I, too, am glad she's been brought up.

Several people in the past have mentioned that the bottle collector, R.P., had found another set of remains prior to finding Tina's. At the time he found Tina's he said authorities didn't seem interested in talking to him so he quit trying to talk to them. Curious to know if the other body Mr P found was also at Camp 18?

Another thing I was told in private was that Camp 18 was known by Butte County authorities to be a dumping ground for items involving illicit activities. I have my own concerns about Butte County authorities...
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby Ausgirl » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:03 am

Another factor, KK, that apply to a perp moving the body is risk of discovery.

If indeed one of the perps was serial (and I have my thoughts that do tend to lean that way too) and Tina was a 'trophy', he may have hidden her somewhere he could revisit without risk of discovery. It's happened over and again with other killers. But if the hiding place was compromised, he might have taken her remains to somewhere he felt was 'safer' to visit, and/or to avoid his preferred hidey spot being discovered.

IF this is the scenario, then the disturbance of his hiding place was unexpected - the perp might have used an abandoned building that was suddenly slated for renovation, or the like. I suspect strongly a perp of that nature would revisit the body, even if only to keep checking up that she hadn't been discovered yet - he'd want control over even that.

IF he moved the body, it would have to have been closer to the time of death than the time of discovery in '84, as I see it. Those bones had been in the ground for some considerable time, whether they were originally left at camp 18 or elsewhere as an interim.

The original hiding place was, I agree, probably not very from Keddie (let's say, Reno is not out of the question, as the edge of a possible radius) and was somewhere the killer felt secure in leaving her alone - somewhere she would not be discovered right away, somewhere he could 'keep an eye on her', but that would not lead to his immediate arrest if she -was- found (ie, not his home, not anywhere usually associated with him, probably). Some old warehouse. A patch of forest with a hut. An abandoned cabin, as I believe you (?) suggested some time ago - somewhere HE knew he could come back to, and keep an eye on things.

IF he moved her. And I believe he did. He was watching Tina, watching for what happened. He 'corrected' that 1984 ID as a boy. It might have offended him that Tina was mistaken for a male.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:28 am

Hi Ausgirl,
I was thinking along the same lines. I do think Reno is a possibility because he came from there and I haven't seen anything that proves he actually went to Klammath Falls or stayed in Klammath Falls after the murders. Maybe I missed it?

It would make sense to me IF he did take Tina someplace other than Camp 18 that he would go up the canyon towards where his alibi said he was on the 12th. I'm sure also that IF he did this it was to keep control of her.

I believe keeping her hidden and under his control would keep the crime active and alive to him as would any objects that he took that night. There's a lot of supposition here and for much of it he would need a car. Mobility is missing from his profile as an organized serial killer. He needs a car to fit.

Still none of this answers my question of why Tina ended up at Camp 18?

I do think there's a message in that but who it's intended for or what it means I don't see yet.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby Chichibcc » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:50 am

krazykat wrote:There's a lot of supposition here and for much of it he would need a car. Mobility is missing from his profile as an organized serial killer. He needs a car to fit.


Dee Lake would've solved that problem quite easily, for those who believe he was involved as an accessory to the crime (which I do).
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby not sure » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:54 am

On a timeline post from one of Josh's prior discussion boards he posted these two statements: (Meankitty compiled the info in her Comprehensive Timeline thread)

45. Shortly after the murders, Martin Smartt checks into the same hotel as John Boubede in Klamath Falls, Oregon, and they share the room.

52. It was reported that Martin Smartt checked out of hotel in Klamath Falls with a white female adult about 30 years old in a red van.


Somewhere (and I can't find where...grrrr) it was stated they shared room 46 at the Arcadia Hotel.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:47 am

So the only information that Bo went to Klammath Falls are entries in a Timeline from a defunct forum?

The two police reports don't mention Bo, only Marty, and the police officer asked to trace Marty doesn't say how he got the information that Marty had left Oregon to go to (Redding Ca?), and disappeared after that only to send a postcard to Dee Lakes,(wife?), that Bo had died in Walla Walla.

Which acording to a simple web search shows he's probably still alive and living in Vegas.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby not sure » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:01 am

krazykat wrote:So the only information that Bo went to Klammath Falls are entries in a Timeline from a defunct forum?


Josh should be able to verify if the entry he posted on the defunct forum was valid and site his sources. My understanding at the time he posted it was that it came from the timeline that's posted on the wall at the Plumas County Sheriff's Office. I may be wrong.

I, too, thought it was odd they only seemed to be tracking Marty. The report says he went to Redding but we know he was back in Quincy in May 1981, if the confrontation in the jail cell was correct. Plus, he was making his visits to the counselor in Reno during the weeks following the murders. He also lived in Chico for a while...a photograph was taken of him in his Town Crier costume.

Perhaps Bo didn't need to be tracked if he was working for them. Some believe he was left alone because he was on their payroll.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:37 pm

Looks like the Arcadia has been out of business for years so I doubt the register still exists.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby Ausgirl » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:52 pm

Marty and Bo don't strike me as the type of people who would be familiar with an area used mainly for hunting. They seem more like flatlanders or city folk that just happened to live, or were staying in Quincy from what I've read.


Marty used to go fishing, I recall seeing somewhere on the boards. Anyone recall where that was said?

For a man with mobility problems, Bo sure did criss-cross the country pretty constantly over the years, from coast to coast, and steal gold Cadillacs, despite his "terrible, terrible problems with seizures".
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby Chichibcc » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:24 pm

Ausgirl wrote:Marty used to go fishing, I recall seeing somewhere on the boards. Anyone recall where that was said?


From the PCSO actions upon Tina's discovery thread:

6-20-84, Marilyn L. (previously Marilyn S.) contacted me to confirm what she had heard on the radio about Tina being found in Butte County. I advised her it was true. We discussed her ex-husband. She told me that he went to Reno the day after the homicides, or at least that is what he told her. She said she can't confirm that he actually went to Reno, but he did go somewhere. I asked her about her son Justin and she told me that he has had some serious mental problems and was consequently delivered to her [other] ex-husband in Montana. He has started to discuss the Keddie incident on occasion but stops abruptly and will not talk further. I asked her if Marde had any connections (deer hunting, fishing, etc) with Feather Falls or that area and she stated none that she knows of. She added, however, that he does fish a lot and spends a lot of time in the woods but not around that area.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:56 am

Ausgirl wrote:For a man with mobility problems, Bo sure did criss-cross the country pretty constantly over the years, from coast to coast, and steal gold Cadillacs, despite his "terrible, terrible problems with seizures".


Yup that's true, but he did not have mobility in Keddie. If you were profiling Keddie it would be missing. I think you gave the answer though, Marty in his interview said it gave Bo phenobarbital and delantin, which was given for seizures. Perhaps while in Keddie he wasn't able to drive.

Interesting enough I left having a flashy car off my organized killer chart because he lacked mobility. Obviously it should have stayed but I didn't know about the gold Cadillacs.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby Ausgirl » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:45 am

Epilepsy. There's a pile of other stuff those drugs are used for, too. Research into their use for bipolar disorder started around 1978, as far I can tell. They were also sometimes part of treatment for alcoholism.

Boubede's said to have been in and out of hospital for alcoholism, no mention of epilepsy. Alcohol and epilepsy do not mix, I have seen the problems it causes first-hand. Alcohol not only causes seizures itself, but in long-term usage inhibits the effectiveness of Dilantin as well. And he'd have to have had a pretty bad case of epilepsy to be on such a big dose, two dilantin, two phenobarbs.

Which makes his "terrible trouble with seizures" sort of believable. Except - I don't believe it. Not entirely.

Boubede says he's a light sleeper. That can happen with alcoholism. Not that anything he says is trustworthy - but being bombed on epilepsy drugs is not a bad alibi. Yet he removes it, even after Marty has told the cops Bo was out of it that night, after his meds. Why on earth would he do that? Was it another 'f-you' to the cops? Bo wasn't bombed out on meds every night. He was up and down, restless, going outside, walking around.

I don't believe for a moment that Marty did not fill Boubede in on the details of his own interview - so why screw up a damned good alibi, in the face of being potentially associated with a triple murder? :shock:

Back on topic - without some conclusive doctor's report on his state at the time -- and I doubt the VA would be forthcoming with that -- we can't know whether he even had epilepsy. We can be pretty doubtful he was taking those meds, if he was waking through the night, though.

If his epilepsy - like the being Marilyn's uncle story, and the Marilyn being epileptic story, and the being a cop story and every other damn thing that came out of his mouth - was a lie, then there's a good chance he could have driven Tina somewhere himself. After all, he had Dee Lake's car at his disposal. And maybe Wade's as well. And if not? His epilepsy, he says, wasn't so bad that he ---couldn't--- drive, he just had to have somebody else in the car with him...

The epileptic partner I had years ago, who --did-- have a "terrible problem with seizures" and was on a high dose of Dilantin daily was forbidden from driving altogether. It makes NO sense whatsoever to me that a person on that level of medication, who is having such bad seizures, would be allowed a driver's licence at all. It simply does not compute. And, because an epileptic of that level of illness behind a wheel is not only a danger to themselves but to anyone sharing a road with them, it defies belief that it would ever happen. It certainly does not in this country, anyway.

So why's he got a license? Why's he walking around in the middle of the night? I smell more Bobullshit.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:02 am

I’m pretty sure when I got my drivers license in California in the 70’s there was just a check box asking if you had epilepsy. I don’t know if the Doctor who diagnosed it was required to report it and then the names where cross checked. I kinda doubt that. When I moved to Nevada I surrendered my CDL paid 6 bucks had my picture taken and walked out with a Nevada’s driver’s license no questions asked.

I knew an epileptic in the 80’s who had a driver’s license because he didn’t want potential employers to know about it. He never drove because he was afraid of getting hurt in an accident but he definitely had a license, not an ID card as he did have a seizure and the EMT’s checked to see if he was an epileptic and commented on the fact he had a DL not ID.

Personally I can go both ways on this but I lean towards the fact that Bo was epileptic which can explain to me why a serial killer who’d worked alone would need a partner and why my intuition says the killings stopped at Keddie. But I’ve been wrong before.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:29 pm

I stopped off above Keddie this weekend on my way back from Chico just get a feel of how it would be to get Tina up to the road and into a car. I believe that's what was in the confession? If I'm wrong about that let me know as I still haven't seen or heard the confession. Either way if the body was hidden inside Keddie then driven out I just don't see it happening on the 12th.

Nor can I see them heading down canyon as the traffic between the Greenville turnoff and Quincy is pretty steady. It must have been higher on the 12th as news of the murders would have travelled fast and people would be out on 70 trying to see something if LE wasn't letting them into Keddie.

Tina had to have been moved at a later date. Or during the night, before the discovery of the murders, someplace far enough away for it to be safe to be moved farther. I just can't see anyone carrying a body up any of the embankments on the 12th.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby Chichibcc » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:34 pm

I really think that the Camp 18 area was chosen because the killers probably thought that it was an out-of-the-way place where searches for Tina would have been the least likely to have taken place, especially since it wasn't in Plumas county.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby dmac » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:37 pm

Having been to Camp Eighteen this past April, here's a few things from my perspective to consider.

We drove there almost as an afterthought during our recent trip to Keddie/Plumas, driving back down from the Shasta area, through Chester and Oroville. I'd never been there before, obviously, and was going purely from memory. I'd researched it a bit months prior, using USGS maps, online maps, and the records on Tina's location taken from LE reports. I hadn't looked at Camp Eighteen maps in months, so I wasn't sure I'd be able to find it. We'd originally planned to make a day trip by hiking out to the actual Feather Falls- not at all related to the crimes, but it was just an excursion idea- but I believe we'd scuppered that plan prior to the start of the trip.

We were there in April, just a few days later in the month than when Boubede, Marty, and Dee Jay Lake made that trip 30 years prior to dump Tina's body. MK has consistently insisted that the roads were completely impassable directly from Quincy to Camp Eighteen, but has never proffered a stitch of proof this was the case. I do know that, a couple weeks prior to our visit, there were huge storms which made international television news, closing down many roads and freeways between Portola, Reno, and Plumas; however, by the time we visited, there was no evidence of the storm and all roads were passable.

If I'd known we were going to visit 18, I would have planned to do it from the shorter Quincy/LaPorte Road, the route I was familiar with. However, we drove from the Oroville side, with little difficulty finding the town of Feather Falls, once we found the Forbestown Rd and Lumpkin Rd turn-offs. However, by the time we reached FF, it was already dusk and we were pressed for time to reach Camp Eighteen by dark. All I knew is that Camp Eighteen was 5.4 miles from FF via the roads we were on.

Past Feather Falls, the roads quickly became dodgier because they clearly are not maintained in winter. Fallen trees and rockslides hampered the drive, but it was a mere nuisance- all we had to do was drive around them. Had any of the trees we encountered blocked the road, they were lightweight enough to be dragged aside by myself. What was far more bothersome was the lack of signs. Being logging country, in April most of the roads- even the paved ones- look and feel like graded dirt roads, and they intertwine like a ball of screwing rattlesnakes. The fact that California seems to be hellbent on removing all road signs from existence (they swap them out for McDonalds billboards, apparently) makes getting anywhere difficult, but the backroads to Camp Eighteen are exponentially more difficult to master.

Fortunately, I only took one wrong turn. When I doubled back to what I thought had to be Camp Eighteen (I wasn't too certain, but light was gone so we had to take it in the hopes we were right- there was no chance of finding it after dark), we parked and walked north up the old logging road mentioned in the police files, then started back west, down into the small ravine where her skull was found. We couldn't take photos in the dark, and we weren't even certain it was Camp Eighteen, etc., so we left without looking around as much as we wanted. It wasn't until I got back home that I verified, using Google Earth, we had actually been at Camp Eighteen.

My conclusion is they either knew Camp Eighteen very well and it was of importance to at least (and likely only) one of the three, or one of them were familiar enough with the area to know how to get back there. As she was found just over the Plumas/Butte county line, that may have played a factor in the location chosen, but I believe the primary reason was familiarity and comfort.

I don't hold ANY faith in the idea that Tina was kept alive for any time after April 12, when they were all were killed. The idea is damned ridiculous to me, actually. Held for some time- days? weeks? Then killed and dumped? Bullshit. Likewise, I don't believe she was moved to Camp Eighteen at any time other than very shortly after her death. Bodies don't keep, and moving a putrified corpse is a loser's game. I've seen it on the Sopranos once, but have you ever heard of it being done in any true case- other than mafia? Another thing that supports the idea that she was dumped there immediately after her death is the fact she was evidently dismantled and spread around by wildlife. Sure, it took thirty years for us to find out more than the top portion of her skull was found, but in the end all we've accounted for is her head and much of her torso- no pelvis or limbs- and these were clearly scattered throughout the area. She couldn't have been there long, otherwise the wildlife would 't have touched her.

Whether the killers turned right or left outside of Keddie? Well, it's a ridiculous shame that, shortly after cops were packed into Keddie, they let the step-dad of the sole survivor outside or the Sharp family just waltz out of town in a car packed with his vermin pals. It's a shame, to be honest. One cop at the bridge monitoring traffic would have been the normal thing to do, even in 1981. Or 61. 1761! That's a no-brainer, yet these pigs screwed that pooch, too. Why would they go right? The long route north, down the canyon, around Oroville and into Camp Eighteen? Only a couple things ring true as possibilities: it was a safer, quiter route: Less traffic, less pigs. Even though they were laughing their asses off at the fact the pigs let them drive right ou of Keddie, I'm not so sure Tina was in the car yet. It would have made far more sense to dump her outside of Keddie in any of a million places right by the highway. Marty mentioned the footbridge in his interview, and it certainly backs up logic, his lies, and Justin's rant:

    Marty lied constantly during the interview. Him bringing up the footbridge is illogical. I debunked his lies that it was locked and impassable months ago.

    It would have been easiest and quietest to take Tina out via the footbridge. Only a couple cabins, no chance of traffic. Those cabins are so close to the river that you have to almost shout to be heard when the runoff is that high.

    "Look for Tina DOWN BY THE RIVER!!!" Well, the only way to get down to the river is to go down to Keddie Flats, where the footbridge is.

Why carry a body out in your car when any smart police force would have a pig stationed at the sole entrance into the tiny town where 4 people were just brutally murdered? I don't believe they yet had been handed the "Get Out of Jail Free" cards, nor do I believe they felt yet that they were bulletprof. Not yet. So would they go north, retrieve Tina's body, and keep heading that direction? They had to at least make it look like they were going to Reno, and it's only 12 miles further to get there by going north, but was it a concern? They would pass cops if they went south, but not likely if they went north... but did they care? It was Dee's car with Dee driving (where was the taxi of choice, Craig???), so what's the risk of going the shorter route to Reno or C18? Nobody was looking for Dee, and chances are they had for more pressing things in mind than the whereabouts of those three assholes- the idiots let them drive right out of Keddie, after all?

In short, at least one perp was familiar with Camp Eighteen, and Tina was placed there immediately after the murders.

PS- look at the helicopter shots of the crime scene again- The pigs noted Dee's car was seen in Keddie that day, but why are there three cars parked outside of 26? One is Marilyn's red station wagon (with the hood up)- what about the other two? Did Bo come to town with his own car, after all?

Also, do we know Boubede was in the car with them? It says a lot if he was with them, it says perhaps more if he was not.
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Re: So why Camp 18?

Postby krazykat » Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:21 pm

Thanks for the info dmac. I was wondering if you had gone there too on your trip. I looked at topo maps of the La Porte road trying to determine whether or not it could be passable. According to the historic weather data I could find there wasn't any snow on the ground at Quincy or the Beckworth Airport. That still doesn't mean the La Porte road was passable since it's dryer the further east you go.

I'm planning on taking a Sunday drive down in the next couple of weeks and taking the La Porte Rd into Camp 18. It'll be interesting to see how high it goes.

However, why Camp 18 bothers me and always will. You know the Feather River canyon. Why go all the way to Camp 18 unless there's a reason other than you just wanted to hide a body? It had to mean something to one of the killers. If you wanted to put the body in Butte County why not drive down past Polga Rd and dump it off a cliff. It would probably still be there today.

To me everying about this crime speaks of control and my harping on "why Camp 18" is also why was Tina taken to Camp 18.
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