Justin's statements on the timeline.

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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby dmac » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:36 pm

LadyKim wrote:1. Why do you suppose that the killers took Tina from the cabin if they were only going to kill her like they had the others?

2. And even more off base I am sure , I thought about the Groeone ( sp? ) murders , where Duncan killed everyone and stole two children, only to murder one of them and keep the other. Very similar murders in my mind.


1- There is no indication Tina was taken alive from the cabin, other than what can be read into Justin's statement:
Tina comes out of her room dragging a blanket, and asks, "What's going on?" The two men then rush to Tina and grab her by the arms and drag her out the back door as she cries "help, help." Later, the brown-haired suspect returns and covers up Sue with the blanket.

Marty claimed in the confession Tina was 'incapacitated' prior to being removed from the cabin. Many factors bear that out, including logic: why would Marty and Bo remove Tina, kicking and screaming, from the cabin in the middle of murdering three others? Is Justin implying Tina magically woke up after the murders occured (with the men returning only to cover Sue with Tina's blanket)? It is far more likely that Tina was awakend when the killers entered the cabin and confronted Sue in the bed opposite Tina. The significant signs of disturbance/struggle in that room can't be ignored. Tina's skull was also found with damage consistent with injuries sustained by the other victims.

Dee and Marilyn (and likely others) can tell us what happened and in what order, and the hows and whys, but we currently don't know. With all the heavy crap Bo and Marty were bringing into Keddie (cops, attention, investigation), it's highly unlikely they left Tina within Keddie that early morning, much less alive. The quietest, easiest way to get Tina out of Keddie was to remove her body out the back door, down to the back footbridge, and up the hill to the highway. Then they just have to pull over and retrieve the body so they can drive to Camp Eighteen.

Gauging from the damage done in Cabin 28, and the elaborate steps taken to hide the true nature of the crimes, I believe Tina's body was removed from Cabin 28 and placed elsewhere to, again, hide the truth. All the staging has been meant to obfuscate. In fact, Tina's initial removal from the cabin is one of the earliest points of staging. One could also resonably deduce that the staging poorly executed on Sue, Dana, and Johnny was meant to show the mother and boys struggled valiantly to save Tina from being kidnapped. But, of course, it's just poorly executed staging, which means Tina was never the target.

In one sentence, all of the above means I believe Tina was taken from the cabin, dead, to make it appear Tina was the target of the whole crime.

2- I didn't follow the Duncan crimes too closely, other than while Shasta was still missing. There seems to have been a media blackout of sorts about Duncan (thankfully for Shasta- who needs a media spotlight after what she's been through? Screw Duncan, convict him and let him rot in jail with no celebrity wasted on him, until he's shanked to death by another inmate). What I do recall is Duncan planned this whole attack out for some time, and it was very elaborate. He seemed to relish the planning and execution. It would not surprise me at all if he was aware of the Keddie murders, because he's a fan of murderers and spent a lot of time on the web. While aspects of the intial Groene attacks may match the Keddie crimes, how they were executed and the results were very different.

Groene took delight in killing his victims, but the targets were the two kids, particularly Shasta. Duncan stated the boy was eventually accidentally killed, but he was likely executed after Duncan grew bored or needed another fix or needed to get rid of baggage. Likely a mix of all three. Two kids were misssing, so only having one kid with him made him less suspicious.

Whether Duncan was emulating the Keddie murders is known only to him and the computer specialists and google experts who were able to retrieve details from his web footprint. That Jesse, from the noxious other site and board, found enough in Duncan's actions to become a groupie, speaks to Jesse's own motivations in building a site about the Keddie crimes in the first place.
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby Eastern » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:44 pm

I don't think they killed Tina in the cabin. Justin would have freaked and they knew that. Justin wholeheartedly believed Tina was alive the next morning imo and there must have been some reason for that. They may also have had a brief pause about killing a little girl.

I do agree they hid her body somewhere that night. Probably outside, but close to the resort.

Did Marty's confession say he incapacitated Tina inside they cabin?
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby dmac » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:47 pm

Marty's Therapist wrote:I remember asking him, 'why didn't the child run away?', and he indicated that he'd incapacitated her in some way that she could not run away. I didn't know what that meant, and when I tried to pursue it he went off on a diffeerent subject."


While Justin said Tina was alive when she left the cabin, and that PCSO should look for her "down by the river", how much of Justin's 'testimony' is actual eyewitness vs. intentionally falsified eyewitness vs. what he was led to believe by others that night? Bo, Marty, Marilyn- all had access, motive, and opportunity to manipulate Justin and his knowledge of events. What was he led to believe, vs what did he witness? Also, Pt 2 states that he changed his story over 2 weeks after the murders, saying he only saw Tina leave the cabin out the back door with the killers- this was his "peaking through the crack in the door" story, which has been proved impossible to do.

Also, what about Sue's car? Again, we're right back to old rumours that blood was found on the car. Was it used to hide Tina for some time before the killers were done with the initial, deadly attacks in the cabin?
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby Eastern » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:25 pm

dmac, I think Marty and Bo said and/or did things to lead Justin to believe that they weren't going to kill Tina. I don't believe he was coached to lie about that. It's also possible that he saw her being whisked out the door alive and he assumed that she would have gotten away and went to hide "down by the river," since she supposedly had a favorite spot there.

I think his "peaking through the crack in the door" has been misconstrued to mean he claimed he witnessed everything he did by peaking through the crack in the door. No, he "went to the doorway," meaning he went to the doorway between the hall and the living room and witnessed a lot of what he saw from there.

They may have hidden Tina in Sue's car momentarily, but it's also plausible that Tina somehow bolted and tried to get into Sue's car to get away from the killers - Marty and Bo.

Justin changing his story 2 weeks later - claiming that it really wasn't what he dreamed, but instead witnessed, is pretty likely and not so questionable for a traumatized 12 year old to do; especially after being threatened by the killers.
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby CoffeeOD » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:24 am

Eastern wrote:dmac, I think Marty and Bo said and/or did things to lead Justin to believe that they weren't going to kill Tina. I don't believe he was coached to lie about that. It's also possible that he saw her being whisked out the door alive and he assumed that she would have gotten away and went to hide "down by the river," since she supposedly had a favorite spot there.

I think his "peaking through the crack in the door" has been misconstrued to mean he claimed he witnessed everything he did by peaking through the crack in the door. No, he "went to the doorway," meaning he went to the doorway between the hall and the living room and witnessed a lot of what he saw from there.

This is how I've always pictured things going down from Justin's perspective.
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby CoffeeOD » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:41 am

dmac wrote:Gauging from the damage done in Cabin 28, and the elaborate steps taken to hide the true nature of the crimes, I believe Tina's body was removed from Cabin 28 and placed elsewhere to, again, hide the truth. All the staging has been meant to obfuscate. In fact, Tina's initial removal from the cabin is one of the earliest points of staging. One could also resonably deduce that the staging poorly executed on Sue, Dana, and Johnny was meant to show the mother and boys struggled valiantly to save Tina from being kidnapped. But, of course, it's just poorly executed staging, which means Tina was never the target.

I don't think there was any staging, just 2 rounds of the killing. The first round before Tina came out of her room, possibly waking up due to sounds of one of the boys of Sue made while dying. In my mind I see the killers incapacitating Tina, removing her and taking her across the footbridge and near the road. When they return to the house they add some more bindings, then go to each victim making sure beyond any doubt that they're dead by inflicting more damage that would kill them if they weren't dead already.

The post-mortem movement of the bodies could be from moving the bodies slightly to get in their finishing blows to make sure they were dead OR moving them bodies to make sure there was no incriminating evidence under/around them. I just don't see the killers staging anything. More likely it was them sloppily making sure they finished the sloppy job they started. It just seems like the most simple explanation and how I picture it happening.

My $.02
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby Ausgirl » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:40 am

It's a fair enough scenario - but what doesn't make sense then is why they'd go to so much risk, time and trouble to hogtie a small and already badly wounded woman, lug dead bodies around, beat and ineffectually bind with cord the very definitely dead Dana and John with his massive, probably-by-then fatal brain injury -- just so they don't leave evidence.. and then leave all the weapons and a pack of Camels in plain sight.

Maybe I'm just giving them too much credit, but it seems to me there was more of a purpose to all this unnecessary stuff -- or why do it?
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby Chichibcc » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:44 pm

I think the weapons were intentionally left behind...the way they were left lying so neatly on the table has always made me feel that the killers had no interest in taking them, for whatever reason....it's almost as if they wanted LE to find them.
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Re: Justin's statements on the timeline.

Postby SecretAgentHolly » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:30 am

Ausgirl wrote:It's a fair enough scenario - but what doesn't make sense then is why they'd go to so much risk, time and trouble to hogtie a small and already badly wounded woman, lug dead bodies around, beat and ineffectually bind with cord the very definitely dead Dana and John with his massive, probably-by-then fatal brain injury -- just so they don't leave evidence.. and then leave all the weapons and a pack of Camels in plain sight.

Maybe I'm just giving them too much credit, but it seems to me there was more of a purpose to all this unnecessary stuff -- or why do it?



unless They knew they would be able to walk from all of it.

Clean things up to some extent, but not to any perfect degree. Because their good buddies down at the Pig's Office were gonna make sure everything went under the proverbial rug. Then Marty and Bo practically did cartwheels out of town and were given a fruit basket by the Pig's Office as a parting gift.
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