Justin

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Justin

Postby islander » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:00 am

Reading over the time line again. Justins story just doesnt ring true in the slightest ... The timeline is in bold simply to make it easier to differentiate between the timeline and my comments.

22. Justin said that he heard a noise and that he came out into the living room. Two men are standing in the center of the room. Then John and Dana come home and enter the front room.


If this is to be believed Justin is just standing there as John and Dana enter and an argument ensues. The problem i have with this is if this is true why arent the men concerned with Justin just standing there. I would assume if things began to escalate quickly as by Justins account they would appear to wouldnt the killers be concerned that Justin could simply run out the back door and seek help ? Yet Justin doesnt do this. He just stands there. Watching. The men permit this to happen unconcerned they have an audience who can talk later. They allow him to move around unharmed and unhampered.

23. John is arguing with the two men and a fight starts. Dana tries to get away and flees toward the kitchen when the brown-haired man strikes him with a hammer. Sue rushes to John's aid and Justin returns to his room and is looking from the door. The suspects then tie up Johnny and Dana.

Justin is what 12/13 years old ? It never once occurred to him to run for help at seeing someone being attacked/tied up ? Perhaps fear held him in place but Im not buying it given all that happened that night. It was too easy at several points to make a break for it. The two men are able to subdue 2 teenagers who are incapable of putting up a figtht (no defensive wounds) but have problems with Sue who to my understanding is a smaller person (who does have defensive wounds). Obviously they were able to overcome the two boys, but how ? I dont believe it happened in a fight that they were overcome. I think they were told to obey the killers by a scared Sue, who at this point probably feels she can still reason with the killers.

24. Tina comes out of her room, dragging a blanket. She asks, "What's going on?" The two men rush to Tina, grab her by the arms, and drag her out the back door as she cries "help, help!" Later, the brown-haired suspect returns and covers up Sue with a blanket.

Presumably while the men are dealing with Tina Justin would have a clear shot to the front door to again seek help. He doesnt do this however, for what reason ? Oddly no mention of Sue being tied up. If she isnt tied why wouldnt she run for help ?

25. Justin hears one of the suspects say Sue's name. The suspect has brown hair, past his ears, curly at the end. He wears the same kind of glasses as the other man and the same kind of clothes, according to Justin.

Its night time and theyre wearing dark glasses, I presume are sun glasses. This strikes me as a spur of the moment coaching from someone trying to make up a description for Justin to repeat back when asked. Theyre dressed the exact same way ? What did the salvation army have a sale on Clothes for Twins the week before ?

26. Justin says the man used a knife on Johnny. "I was down by Sue, trying to take care of her. All the blood was running down."

It still doesnt occur to him that running for help might be a good idea. Why isnt he covered in blood or at the least have significant amounts on him ? The rest of that room is covered in it, why not him ?

This part of the timeline stinks to high heaven which no doubt others have felt as well. Ive read enough to understand Justin isnt the most reliable/forthcoming witness around. Who is he protecting or afraid of. Only thing I can think of is if hes protecting someone it would be a family member, thus the ridiculous description of the perpetrators and his impossible to believe account of his own actions that night. In short his account is a load of something warm and brown, coming out of the south end of a cow who is facing north. Oh and it stinks too. Im sure you know what I mean.

A more realistic scenario:

Killers come to #28 talk to Sue make threats. Boys come home, Sue tells them to do what theyre told and they comply. Possible reasons may include #1, they have already taken Tina as leverage. #2 Sue/the boys know the killers and know them to be prone to violence &/or dangerous to cross.

Sue is hoping to talk her way out of it at this point. The men want something that the boys or Sue has, or they believe that they have. Theyre not taking no for an answer and begin to get serious about hurting Sue and the boys. For whatever reason Sue and the boys are unable to give the killers what they want. Either they dont have it or they dont want to give it up. My guess is they dont have it, if they did they would give it up simply to stop the attacks. The only thing they would be unwilling to give up gently is Tina.

The killers become enraged with not getting their way. They make what threats they can, perhaps this is the point the walls get cut up with a knife. Killers way of illustrating what will happen if they dont comply.

Being unable/unwilling to comply only enraged the killers even more. Perhaps under the influence of drugs - my guess would be alcohol, heroin or cocaine as that has a tendency to make people far more agitated. Pot makes people mellow, and people under the influence of acid couldnt organize a trip to the bathroom. I know what Im talking about drug wise, Ive either done or been around every type of recreational drug known to man (for the record Im clean and sober a number of years now)

Things escalate to the point of no return. The deed is done. Tina who i believe was removed for leverage is already taken care of in most probably a waiting car. They drive off with her. Not seeing a car that late at night is quite possible. I live in a very small town and it would be possible to walk from one end to the other butt naked and not be seen on any given night including the weekends. Simply avoid where you know people will hang out, the bars, people known to be night owls etc. Leave lights off or only use running lights, not headlights to see by.

Deed is done, crime committed.

Except for Justin.

He just went to bed.

If you believe that I have some swampland on Mars thats worth a fortune IM me and Ill sell it to you. Cheap.

Reasons for Justin to lie as stated above. It was family in the cabin. It was someone he knew before hand were quite dangerous. Either way, he knows who the people are, and isnt saying. I dont hold him responsible for his actions that night he was a child. I *do* hold him responsible for his actions as an adult. I find it maddening and frustrating that the police dont haul him into the station for some one on one time in the interrogation room. They have the means to get some sort of a statement out of him, or to protect him/his family. The police handling of this case goes beyond incompetency and into the realm of deliberate refusal to investigate it properly.

I think its safe to say Justin is every bit as much a key as Tina is. I think its highly possible Justin was placed in that cabin that night. Why Im not certain other than perhaps to act as lookout or to keep the smaller kids out of harms way. I dont think murder was on their minds when this was planned. I do believe going to cabin 28 was planned before hand. My personal belief is things got out of hand and someone went too far. In for a penny in for a pound. Cant accidentally kill one and then just walk away. Especially when the people you attacked know who you are.

Justin needs serious looking at by proper authorities. I dont understand why this hasnt happened. Something set this in motion, and it was a lot more than a simple drug rip off. Had the boys taken the drugs they would have given them back long before it came to dead bodies and a missing sister. Someone wanted something Sue and the boys were unable or unwilling to give up. I wish i knew what that was, as that would point straight at the killers. Im sure of it.

Any thoughts ? Corrections ?
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Postby islander » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:59 am

33. Located in the cabin were some additional knife marks in the short east interior wall between the two south wall windows. But there was nothing conclusive that a knife had been left sticking into the wall when the suspect or suspects left. All the knife marks on that wall were slightly raised on one side, indicating that the knife was removed after being stuck into the wall. It was removed at an angle to the right.

Would this indicate a left handed or right handed person ?

39. The phone was off the hook. All the drapes were pulled close. There were no lights on in the house except for the light in the bedroom. The door to the children's bedroom could not be closed due to clothing lying in the doorway. The blinds in the children's bedroom are hanging out the window and the window is open.

Whos clothes were they ? Would this be the bedroom Justin and the smaller boys were in ? I thought it was forced shut with a chair against it from the inside.

40. Seized and entered into evidence were a fingerprint from a roof post at the bottom of the rear stairs outside, and a button found on the ground at the rear of the residence.

A button ? From someones clothes ? Whos? Was any attempt made to find out what clothes it could have come from ? Buttons tend to be specific to items, and would indicate what article of clothing it belonged to. Just a guess but Im thinking it came off the one of the killers. Was no attempt made to ask locals for a finger print to match ? Simply to prove that they werent part of it. Yes a person can refuse, but thats going to look suspicious.

42. While under hypnosis conducted by Doug Thomas, Justin describes two suspects who did the killings to Reno Police Department artist Harlan Embry. Embry draws a composite of the sketches. According to Thomas, hypnotism was used because it can bring out knowledge from people that would not surface when they are conscious

Why is a local cop conducting the hypnosis. Does he have any training in this at all ? This seems quite odd to me.

44. Martin Smartt tells police that his hammer was missing. It had a steel head and a blue steel handle. According to then sheriff Doug Thomas, Martin would provide endless clues and possible evidence of what happened that night, each one designed to throw the suspicion away from him, according to Thomas.

sigh .... didnt ring any bells mr. police man ? nothing ? Not even a wow, you know there was a murder last night with a hammer .... what a coincidence. Unbelievable. Truly.

47. In the documentary, Marilyn Smartt explains that a coat belonging to Tina was found in their basement that had blood on it. Is this the same red nylon coat that was missing from Cabin 28?

*Pounds head into desk* This is going from who is Justin protecting to who and why are the cops protecting someone. Seriously this didnt raise ANY alarm bells with ANY cops ? Can anyone give me a good reason not to believe that Tina was put there for a certain period of time ?

49. A ramp to a gun sight was found in the Sharp home

Sheila, I assume your family didnt have guns ? I assume John and Dana didnt have a gun hidden somewhere for the giggles of it ? Ill also assume this little factoid wasnt followed up like oh... what gun can this fit onto ? Who in the area has this gun ?

50. A blue windbreaker-type jacket with red/white stripes was found on the floor next to the victim Wingate at the crime scene.

Which of course walked there on its own. Never seen before or after. Sorry, this is just beyond exasperating.

52. It was reported that Martin Smartt checked out of hotel in Klamath Falls with a white female adult about 30 years old in a red van.

a female has been rumored to take part in the killings. Interesting.

66. A search of the area where Tina's remains were found turned up empty medical taped dispenser, a portion of a pair of Levi's with one missing rear pocket, and a decomposed blue nylon jacket.

Maybe Justin wasnt lying about dressed the same. The pics i have seen it looks like medical tape used to bind.

Sheila did your family have such tape in a medical chest ? If so was it missing do you remember ?

68. According to Doug Thomas, one possible suspect is a man who disappeared from Keddie shortly after the slayings and then turned up in Oregon. "But we gave him a polygraph and he passed it," Thomas says. "We found out he had gone to Oregon for employment." This may be a reference to Martin Smartt, but I can't confirm this.

Polygraph tests are notoriously inaccurate for a number of reasons not limited to the ease in which to fool them, the examiner themselves having a bias. Many jurisdictions dont permit their use for good reason.

This is just exasperating. Im not a cop. I have ZERO investigative training, and i can poke more holes in this than the Swiss can cheese. I am utterly dumbfounded that SO much evidence was either ignored or not recognized. I am equally dumbfounded that prime suspects were not only permitted to leave the area right after the killings but given an escort out.

I dont know how your food chain works in regards to policing, but is it possible to call in ppl who actually have brains and get them to investigate ?

I apologize for my dripping sarcasm. I mean no offence to the victims or the victims surviving family. This isnt a who done it so much as a how did they possibly get away with it. They had help obviously. The name of the help is called the local police.

Im truly disgusted. People need to be fired over this.
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Postby dcheryl83 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:45 am

You should be a detective......lol A lot of great things you pointed out. Now I have a few questions of my own.

1) The finger print on the post, was it ever identified?

2) If Justin was hypnotized wouldn't he have named the killers had he known them?

3) If Justin does know who the killers are, why would he be afraid all these years later to tell authorities who they were?
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Postby islander » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:16 am

posted in the wrong spot, deleted and moved to the right thread
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Postby dcheryl83 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:33 am

islander wrote:posted in the wrong spot, deleted and moved to the right thread


HUH?
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Postby coffee is love » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:14 am

24 on the timeline has bothered me for quite some time. at least more than some other things. mainly because justin claimed to have covered up sue. so two people did? or he is lying. i am no detective either but if the two men were dressed up exactly the same, to me that would suggest a disguise and premeditation.

this might seem silly but ive wondered if its possible to get a petition going and signed by locals to have this case taken over by someone competent enough to handle it. i dont know if that would do anything though.
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Postby coffee is love » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:34 am

i just looked at the photos again and if i have the layout in my mind right, the bedroom window was definately not to high to jump out of. espeially for a thirteen year old boy. it doesnt look like it would be more than ten feet. one more thing that makes you wonder why he didnt go get help..
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Postby dcheryl83 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:37 am

I thought he just covered one of her wounds.
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Postby islander » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:51 am

If the two men have left, and tending to Sue would indicate that (would you come out of a hiding place in the middle of a knife murder ? I wouldnt either. ) he could simply have walked out the front door, pick a cabin any cabin and walk/run there. He didnt. The entire story he wove is exactly that a story. I doubt much of the night actually happened like that.

Hes too afraid to go for help but hes not too afraid to go to sleep. How does that work ? His whole story stinks.
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Postby the celt » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:18 am

And what the other boys didnt hear a thing, the one sharp boy was near the same age as justin. Justin woke up but they didnt?
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Postby Neon Bulb » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:30 am

:arrow: .
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Postby dcheryl83 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:05 pm

the celt wrote:And what the other boys didnt hear a thing, the one sharp boy was near the same age as justin. Justin woke up but they didnt?



Did they sleep thru the whole thing? Where did the story of 2 of the boys hiding in a closet come from? I know I saw it in here somewhere. Or was that fabricated later?
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Postby islander » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:36 pm

Neon its the law of overcompensation. A non guilty person will say, dunno i slept thru it. They will have to think about what they did in the day in question. A guilty person will come equipped with a story as they know questions will be asked.

Cop: where were you on jan 5th ?

Person interrogated: At 845 pm i was having a shower. why i didnt hear anything and sure never saw the person attacked. ...

Cop: who said anything about a specific time ? Who told you there was an attack ? but youre right attack happened between 830 and 9 pm. Interesting youre covering yourself for that specific time period in advance. Interesting you know already there was an attack when were going door to door seeing if anyone heard anything to an attack hardly anyone knows about yet...

Person interrogated: ummmmmmmm

got'cha...

somewhat oversimplified but makes a point.

people over compensate. They make convoluted stories to cover seemingly simple events. They have well thought out answers (usually) and those answers dont change much. A non guilty person will word things differently each time asked (usually) a guilty person will have a tendency to repeat the story word for word as this is what they have come up with to cover themselves. Its one way cops catch the bad guys, the bad guys inadvertently tell the cops they did it. A person who honestly didnt do it will remember roughly what happened the day in question. A person making up a story will have to remember false details sometimes years later. Not as easy as it seems.

Fact: a criminal needs to be lucky every time. A cop just needs to be lucky once. And the cop has time on their side.
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Postby Neon Bulb » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:23 pm

:arrow: .
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Postby not sure » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:21 am

Maybe the cops only posted what they wanted to, especially if they were letting outsiders in to read the timeline. There may be tons more Justin said that wasn't posted. We have no way of knowing.

Or maybe the cops just didn't take very good notes.
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Postby islander » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:29 am

Cops are trained to take notes. Highly detailed ones. In court my lawyer is gonna eat a cop for breakfast if asked, now you said the car was blue, and the cop responds .... um, i think so ya Im not sure anymore i dont remember. They get MANY calls and cant be expected to remember every single detail to every single call. So they take notes. Not doing so is worse than sloppy policing.

Will they tell everything they have in an investigation ? No, some things, details only the killers would know will be withheld for a few reasons.

This isnt a matter of how much was posted, but what was posted. It simply couldnt happen as Justin said it did. It defies logic.

2 people are in a house committing murder. Potential witness to murder is permitted to watch, and permitted to leave line of sight. In fact according to what we know potential witness isnt attacked in any way and has freedom of movement throughout attacks, whereas the subject of the attacks do not. Murderers leave house after crime and dont deal with potential witness that, even if he doesnt know them, knows what they looked like. At a trial he can point to them and say, thats the people who did it. What Justin saw is VERY dangerous to the killers. But he isnt dealt with in the slightest. At the end of the killings, hes very much alive without a scratch on him.

I simply dont believe it. That doesnt happen in real life. Theyre killing 3 ppl and kidnapping a 4th and its ok to them Justin is floating around? Sure and Micheal Jackson and Elvis share an apt above the 7-11 too.

The ONLY way this happened as advertised was if the killers were family. Justin would be safe from them, and them alone. But dont expect correct details of what the killers look like or even their actions cos thats not gonna happen. To supply that defies logic again. If they were family Justin was coached before hand about what to tell cops, or after the murders what to say to the cops. His coaching wont include usable details such as accurate descriptions and killers/his actions that night. Id LOVE to know if Justin was acting weird that day or when he was at Sues cabin before the murders. AKA knew in advance something was going to happen and he would be expected to perform a role no matter how minor.

Apparently Justin wants to see the notes on what he said before he makes further statements to the police. Why ? Cant remember the lies ? Fair enough some details will be forgotten, but this isnt asking you... what did you do on a nondescript day 20 years ago (how should i remember ?) This is, what happened in a house where 3 people were murdered, and a 4th kidnapped. Even a 12yo should be able to remember the bulk of details after this amount of time. Justin claims he cant.

I dont believe it. Not one single word.

Sometimes its not what we say, but what we dont say that speaks louder. Neon asked why hed need to overcompensate without self incrimination. It wasnt Justin, that Justin was worried about when he made the statements. It was the killers identities. He made a statement that didnt come from real life actions and activities. He was coached on what to say, by someone close to him. The fact that he was interviewed away from his parents speaks volumes. Cops wanted Justin to have a chance to speak with the evil eye being given from a parent.

For instance if you and me rob a bank, cops arent gonna stick us together for questioning. Theyll question us separately to see what parts of our stories match and what parts dont. They can also lie and tell us, your buddy came clean, said you planned it all. Unless you want the bulk of this dumped in your lap why dont you come clean with us ? Youd be amazed how often that works in real life. People who are innocent will tell a similar enough story you can tell theyre innocent. People who are guilty will either tell totally different stories or will tell the exact same story. Key phrase, exact same story. Ever heard of the game Chinese Whispers ? No two ppl will tell the exact same story of the exact same event. When they do, theyve rehearsed it.

Why fixate on Tina in the details ? Perhaps cos shes the youngest of the victims. Perhaps cos shes a girl. Perhaps cos Justin liked her. Many reasons are possible and probably a mix of reasons.

I dont believe she was the target. I think she was the leverage to keep things quiet as they were happening. This and what happened to her with her being removed from the cabin has caused her to become the key. Her and Justin both. Crack either one of them and you have the killers.

Why was Tina kept alive for 6ish months after being kidnapped only to be killed ? Hate to say it but perhaps she got pregnant at the hands of whatever sick excuse for a human being held her. There was a few perverts interested in little girls floating around that area. Its quite possible she ended up with one. Sadly, she wouldnt be the first girl to pay a drug debt real or imagined with sex. Locally, if you make a large enough buy of cocaine you get your very own teenaged girl to come "party" with you. By teenage I mean 12+. Sickening, but true. Happens in your area too dont kid yourself. Im not saying Sue was dealing. Im not saying Sue would have allowed Tina to enter into such a world. I am saying if the killers believed they were owed a debt and all they had was Tina well... i dont need to get into the gory details do I ? Ive already said far more than Im comfortable with.

Why isnt Justin not talking ? Cos he hold secrets he doesnt wanna be responsible for or admit to. He knows what happened that night. All of it. Right down to who did it, by his own admission he saw them, and saw what happened to them. He is either protecting someone, or he is afraid of someone. Being afraid as a 12yo boy is understandable. The same fear isnt quite so easy to understand 20 plus years later. Unless its family hes protecting.

The FBI need to sit down with him, and the bottle collector. Forget the local cops. If it was me Id haul the local cops in for a chat too, and not a fun one.

His statements defy logic. But they also point in the right direction. When you point a finger at me, you got 3 more pointing silently back. All you need to do is look in the right spot, or see it with the right perspective.
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Postby Neon Bulb » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:36 am

:arrow: .
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Postby coffee is love » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:43 am

i strongly feel that justin along with his mom and even a few cops should be hounded by an outside source. if his mother was involved and he feared her why would he move back near her? hell maybe they did a mother son duo, maybe marylin was screwing a cop or two and they helped her out as well. then they decided to pin this on marty because he was an easy target. everyones in the clear, no one was gonna blame the cops at that time and as long as justin stayed quiet him and his mommy would stay safe. (this isnt realistic, just showing how many possible scenarios we could come up with). but i do mean that first sentence. :)
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Postby jhancock » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:12 am

Excellent points. We don't know how long Tina was alive. That information, first printed in the Feather River Bulletin I believe, is erroneous. We interviewed extensively the man who identified her remains (check him out in the deleted scenes) and he explained that there was no way to tell when she had been killed. Don Stoy, who investigated the discovery of her remains, concurred this thought.

My gut has always said she was removed from Keddie that night. Gone. I don't think it would be possible to hide her anywhere.

I agree that this whole thing could have been an attempt to pin this on the easy target, Marty.

We also don't really know if Rick saw anything. He told me once he could be the key to solving the murders--but he went no further.

Absolutely--an outside source with authority could really make something happen in this case.
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Postby meankitty » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:31 am

Islander I'll try to answer as best I can.

I never did think Justin's account was that accurate, but I do think he did peek out ant some point and hid back in his room. I don't think the perps knew he was there. There were signs of a struggle mentioned so I think John and Dana did some fighting.

Sue was tied up with wire leading from her wrists to her ankles. I do think Justin could have been in too much shock and denial to run or do anything.

As for Justin not being covered in blood, you have a good point there. Perhaps it was a made up story and he wasn't down by Sue helping her. Maybe it was guilt that he could do nothing to stop what happened. I also think if Justin was protecting a family member, then why would he mention them as being there in the cabin that night. (I heard of him placing both Marty and Marilyn there.)

The funny thing is--he was afraid for years of the real perp I think, but now he's trying to publish a book he claims will solve the case. Make me wonder what happened that made the fear go away?

As far as being "placed" in the cabin, the only question I have is "Why trust Justin?"
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