Cigarettes

theories and spec; back up posts w/ reasoning and evidence/examples

Cigarettes

Postby Ausgirl » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:38 pm

So, two packs of cigs of different brands are left on the scene and entered into evidence, I hear.

Sheila has confirmed her mum smoked Kools, and menthol cig-ends in photos show that. She has also said that she doubts either packet belonged to John.

So what were the exact brands of cigs found, anyone know?
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Postby William Lee » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:55 pm

The cigs are certainly interesting. Maybe LE had/has a reason to believe they were left by the perps. Then again, I've heard that both Sue and John smoked. Not sure on Dana. Maybe LE only knew about Sue. Boys could've had both packs. Sue could've had empty or partly-empty packs of more than one brand lying around; I smoke up to three kinds based on different factors and reason, though only one primarily, still the second is almost as much a constant. There are a lot of reasons the packs might mean nothing, whatever LE felt about them. That is, unless, maybe there are other factors related to the packs that gave LE cause to feel the packs were definitely related, or at least harbor solid suspicions, that these were perp-smokes... AND, as you pointed out, Ausgirl, Sheila doesn't think these said packs were her mom's or brother's. That carries mucho weight with me.

It was put to me in the context of this: these perps (we were talking plural, of course) left so much and only took one thing; they left the weapons, they left the bodies, they left cigarettes, they may have left their own blood, they left the boys; these perps left so much and only took one thing, one person, only Tina was taken...
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Postby Magnum PI » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:28 pm

The cigs, did we ever determine what brands?..Knowing what brands were left behind might help. I doubt Dana smoked he had asthma, take the brands compare them to what the suspects smoked. getting info in that area on who smoked what probably would not be that difficult. So many people new most of the suspects.

And, it was not uncommon for men to carry cigs in their shirt pockets, seems like every guy i new in that era carried them there. It may sound strange but if they were in someones shirt pocket they could have fallen out during the struggle. Or while the perps were bending over striking blows.
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby Ausgirl » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:25 pm

Just to answer the question of this thread:

Found on the fold out table near the couch was: a packet of Benson & Hedges, hard top, white lid.

Those are probably Sue's. She smoked menthols.

Also found on couch: a packet of Camel hard tops, (lid torn off?) smoke spilling out.

These have not been identified.
Last edited by Ausgirl on Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby jhancock » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:36 am

Not sure if this was covered yet...there is also a pack of cigarettes, with a few actually sliding out of the pack, on the couch where the cushion should be. You'll see this picture in the new documentary.
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby William Lee » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:34 pm

Well. Good old Camel Filters, eh? My brand, when my old lady lets me have my way. Dropped or discarded cigs, ones left by the perps, SURELY had to have offered some fingerprints. Were the unsmoked-smokes stored & saved up? Wonder if any biological leavings could be found nowadays if they HAVE been stored well; and, were any butts possibly found within C28 of this (or those non-Sue brands)? If so were they tested for saliva; in those days, would that have been standard protocol, and would it have been capable of determining blood type? As perps MAY have left blood behind themselves (or one did... I mean, MAY have...), is there any info on if this blood was distinguished but kept quiet by LE? Blood type would've probably been all that could've been ascertained back then, and I doubt any real blood from the perps still exists in storage if ever it was... but maybe there is a blood type LE pinpointed?

Just thinking aloud...
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby Magnum PI » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:44 pm

Was anyone associated with marty or Bo asked what kind of cigs they smoked? I mean come on! Mariloon, The Meeks even Justin should have know what brand he smoked. Has this been covered yet?
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby dmac » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:18 pm

I found the coloring on the packet of smokes in one of the Marty photos is consistent with Camels, but not enough of the pack is visible to determine a brand/logo. With no red being visible on the portion of the pack visible in the shot, one can all but rule out the two major competitors to Camel, Winston and Marlboro.

If Marty or Bo didn't smoke Camels- and we're not even sure Bo smoked- then the pack of Camels either belongs to someone else at the scene, or speaks to the amount of premeditation that went into the crime and staging.

I believe the pack belonged to one of the murderers, but don't forget how the ogle-eyed-freak glasses found at Cielo Drive threw off investigators in the Tate-Labianca murders. Charlie himself planted those glasses as a red herring when he (and likely Bruce Davis and Clem) went to the crime scene and tried to hang Sharon's body from the front porch.

The fact the cigarettes weighed heavy on DT's mind-- yet there is no direct mention of Bo's, Marty's, Marilyn's or anybody else's smoking habits (i.e. preferred brands)-- speaks to so many things WRONG in this 'investigation'.
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby meankitty » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:23 pm

There is a lot that we don't have by way of police reports. Just because there is no report available of people's smoking habits does not mean that they don't exist somewhere. It seems DT had a good reason to ask about snuff.
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby dmac » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:55 pm

My point is that, at any time of the investigation, it should have been noted if interviewees or suspects smoked, particularly if they were walking around with Camels. EXACTLY HOW MANY MENTIONS OF CIGARETTES DO YOU FIND ON THE TIMELINE? ZERO POINT GODDAMNED ZERO!

I'm willing to bet Marty was chainsmoking Camels when he was being 'interviewed' by Crim and Bradley. And it's ridiculous to believe DT wouldn't ask Justin if Marty smoked Camels.

Then Doug probably already knew full well what brand Marty smoked- He learned that when they lived together.

EDIT POINT- vantravelor mentioned in chat tonight (1-18-12) that Bo smoked Camels, sometimes preferring filterless (known as Camel Shorts or Camel Straights, or Regulars).
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby Ausgirl » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:35 am

Things are different here.. but I used to smoke Camel non filters. They almost always came in a soft top, and you could get these little plastic packet protectors. I've never seen nf's in a hard top.

D, the way the smokes spilled out - I recall you saying 'the top had been torn off' the packet? Am I right? Wrong? If so, could also be a soft top box.
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby dmac » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:11 pm

No, the smokes weren't stashed under the couch cushion. That would be a great place to hide them if you liked to attempt smoking crushed, broken cigarettes. Plus cigarettes are falling out of the pack, like they would had the pack been tossed there. And, again, to beat a dead horse MK thinks is still prancing around a field, if DT or ANYBODY noticed what brand of smokes Bo, Marty, Dee, Justin, or ANYBODY ELSE were smoking, they would put it in their report. IF THEY WERE DOING A PROPER JOB, which they were not. If the cigarette angle was a 'hold' fact, to be hidden from the public to prove suspect veracity, it would still have to be put into reports.

meankitty wrote:Camels are a common brand of cigarette.
Thanks for that, MK. Camels WERE, indeed, a common brand. So were Marlboros, Winstons, Kool, More, Salem, and a dozen others. There are dozens of "common" brands of cigarettes, so it's wonderful to know the common brand found in Cabin 28 were Camel. But thanks for reverting to your age-old habit of making pointless posts that state the obvious. :-]

As for the staging angle, Justin mentioned the overhead light in the living room was on during the murders. That doesn't mean it was on during the later staging. If they chose not to turn lights back on when they came back to stage, they may have chosen to do so with the ambient light from the girls' bedroom, which was still on when police arrived.

Hard to say how the smokes ended up on the couch, but a logical deduction- from the way the smokes were flying out of the pack- is that they were tossed there from some distance, from the direction of the radio or card table:

Image

This illustration gives you an idea of what I mean, but I got the angle of the pack is a bit off.

And as for mistakes like the smokes, if they were stupid enough to leave a drinking glass with Marty's bloody print on it, you think they can't overlook a pack of smokes?

Dmac, if the only light they had was from the girls room, wouldn't it be hard to see to stage anything?

The blue indicates how much light would go directly into the living room from the girls' room.

Image
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Camel Pack- 3 shots

Postby dmac » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:13 pm

ImageImageImage

The middle photo is clearest. In it, the cig sticking out the furthest from the pack appears to show the full brown filter and a little bit of the white cigarette. Were this pack Regulars (unfiltered), the cigarettes would be entirely white.

This is a pack of filtered Camels.
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby Magnum PI » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:35 pm

It's obviously a soft pack and it looks as if the edges of the pack are squished a little! I'm wondering if the cigs were hidden under the cushion D ?
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby dmac » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:15 am

That soft-pack is in very good condition, and is still pretty firmly in the shape of a box. If they had been hidden under the cushion and were only exposed when the cushion was removed from the couch, they woould look something like this:


Image Image Image
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby Magnum PI » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:02 pm

Dmac point taken! Why do you think that the perps would leave behind a pack of cigs that are the very brand they smoke? Especially when they took so much time to stage the CS. It's hard for me to buy that they accidentally lost them out of their pocket, the smokes were obviously very visible!
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby Ausgirl » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:58 am

Unless the smokes were part of the staging.

Or they had to go in a hurry at some point, and the smokes simply fell out of a pocket.
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby quincygirl » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:17 am

I'm going with the "fell out of a pocket" theory. Men in the 80's tended to carry their cigarettes in their front shirt pocket, especially if they had on their Sunday best. If you look at the diagram, Sue's head is on the side of the couch with the cigs. Think....moving bodies, not much light, moving quickly, grabbing cushions...cigs drop out of your pocket. And the first time you realize you are missing them is after you have gone home to stoke the fire after your dirty deed and you reach for them....oops.
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby cookiepie » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:21 pm

I just wanted to point out that as a teenager when I smoked I would hide my cigarettes so my mom wouldn't find them. I didn't always hide them in the best places. They could have belonged to anyone trying to quickly hide them.
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Re: Cigarettes

Postby krazykat » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:22 pm

They look staged. Postioned in,(from the camera angle), what looks like the center of void were the missing cushion should be. To me it looks like a full soft pack that a few cigarettes have been pulled out of.
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